Who were the ancient Macedonians?

[Ptolemy]

One Greek guy wrote this excellent syllogism about the "ethnicity" of Ancient Macedonians and i think its something everyone must read. After all these endless debates it seems the answer as to the relevance of the ‘ethnicity’ of the ancient Macedonians to today’s various peoples living in the Balkan peninsula rests on the answer to two related issues:

(1) Who where the ancient Macedonians?

(2) What link, if any, is there between the ancient Macedonians and today’s Balkan peoples?

As we all know, there is a lot of debate and conjecture as to who an ancient Macedonian was.

The major viewpoints as to whom the ancient Macedonians where, are essentially as follows:

(1) That they where Slavs;

(2) That they where some mixture of Illyrians, non-Greek Thracians, Dacians and Phrygians;

(3) That they where a separate race of the Balkan peninsula known as Macedonians;

(4) That they where essentially a Greek people, inter-mixed with some Illyrian/Thracian influences, and less developed culturally from the other Greek states to the south due to their isolation;

(5) That they where a Northern Greek people, less developed culturally from the other Greek states due to their isolation (and therefore regarded as ‘backward’ in comparison to the Greek city states).

Of these perspectives, stance (1) is not supported by any ancient sources, archaeological evidence or by any modern historian or scholar (including the ‘heavy weights’ of Badian, Fox, Hammond, Bosworth, Borza and Worthington).

Clearly, the ancient Macedonians where not a Slavic people as it is well documented that the Slavs did not migrate to the Balkan peninsula until the 6th century A.D. – over 850 years after the death of Alexander.

Stance (2) can also be dismissed as there is scant archaeological evidence or ancient authority which credits the notion that the ancient Macedonians where Illyrians (‘Albanians’), Thracians, Dacians (‘Vlachs’) or Phrygians. The sources make it clear that the ancient Macedonians thought of these peoples as ‘barbarians’, much in the same way that the southern Greeks thought of them.

Stance (3) has been a major point of debate and is the conclusion that scholars such as Eugene Borza have come to – that the ancient Macedonians where a distinct people, a people also distinct from the Greeks. This stance relies on a particular interpretation of the ancient sources, namely that the ancient Macedonians and Greeks where two different peoples. This interpretation lacks, however, convincing archaeological evidence to support it.

Stances (4) and (5) are similar, and represent the conclusions reached by historians and scholars such as Nicholas Hammond. This stance relies on a different interpretation of the ancient sources, namely that the ancient Macedonians where a Greek people sufficiently different in dialect, political institutions and relative level of culture that led the southern Greeks to regard them as backward. This interpretation also has a reasonable amount of archaeological evidence in its support.

The more favoured view of these last two perspectives would seem to be stance (4) as there is some evidence that the ancient Macedonians had absorbed some ‘barbarian’ influences, in particular from Illyria and Thrace.

So in summary, there would appear to be two remaining viable standpoints as to whom the Ancient Macedonians where:

(1) A distinct race, separate from the Greeks and other peoples of the region;

(2) An isolated northern people of essentially Greek origin but with some Illyrian and Thracian influences.

Both are plausible interpretations of the ancient sources.

Lets now examine the notion that the Slavs who eventually occupied the Balkan peninsula assimilated with the ancient Macedonians and that therefore the modern Slavs are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians.

This belief relies on the following assumptions:

(1) That the ancient Macedonians are a separate race and not a Greek people. This point is debateable, with authorities supporting both views.

(2) That the ancient Macedonians remained racially ‘pure’ until the Slavic invasions of the 6th Century AD.

(3) That the ancient Macedonians where eventually assimilated by the Slavic tribes in the region after Slavic settlement in the area.

Lets for the sake of analysis assume that point (1) above is correct – i.e. that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct race from the Greeks (if we didn’t make this assumption then the argument is over: the conclusion would be that the ancient Macedonians are a Greek people).

Lets next examine point (2). By the time of Philip and Alexander, the ancient Macedonians had clearly adopted a ‘Hellenic’ type of culture. They also certainly spoke Greek – at the very least the royal family and aristocracy certainly did. They also worshipped the same gods and venerated the heroes from Greek mythology. They both participated at the Olympic and other games. Like the rest of the Greeks, they regarded Illyrians, Thracians, Persians and other foreigners as ‘barbarians’. The Kingdom of Macedon was only a few miles away from the colonies of the southern Greeks who had established these cities mainly on the coast of Macedon. Obviously, there was constant contact between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greeks.

So if the assumption can be made that the ancient Macedonians were assimilated by the Slavs from the 6th century AD onwards, certainly it is just as plausible to assume that they were assimilated by the other Greek peoples over the 9 centuries from the time of Alexander the Great to the coming of the Slavs.

The southern Greeks were their ‘kinsmen’ – since at least Alexander’s time both spoke and understood a common language (Greek), both worshipped the same gods and shared a ‘Hellenistic’ culture. Both became an integral part of the Eastern Roman Empire and both became the defining culture of the Byzantine Empire. Both had embraced Christianity and determined the characteristics of the Orthodox faith.

As a result, it is a reasonable assumption to state that the ancient Macedonians and other Greeks ‘fused’ over the millennium leading up to the Slavic invasions of the 6th century AD.

Now lets turn to point (3) – the assertion that the ancient Macedonians were assimilated by the Slavic tribes that settled in the Balkans.

By the 6th century AD, the ancient Macedonians’ tongue was Greek, their culture was ‘Hellenic’ in character, they were Orthodox Christians and it is fair to say that they were effectively fused with the other Greek peoples in the region to provide the underlying ‘Greek’ character of the Byzantine Empire..

When the Slavs came their character was very different to that of the Byzantine world – the Slavs were foreigners, ‘barbarians’, who were pagans and spoke a language and had a culture completely alien to the ancient Macedonians and Greeks.

So why would the ancient Macedonians (assuming that they still did not assimilate with the other Greeks by this time) suddenly decide to be assimilated with a foreign people who they would surely have seen as barbarous pagans who spoke a language totally unintelligible to them and were part of a society whose culture was far removed to the Hellenistic one they had been a part of for a millennium? Would it not be more reasonable for the ancient Macedonians to mix with their fellow Christian neighbours, namely the Greeks? If they had not already done so, would it not make sense for them to either migrate to the areas not settled by the Slavs or to stay put with their fellow Greeks who remained in Macedonia?

The Slavs themselves were not converted to Christianity until the missionary activities of Saints Cyril and Methodius in the later part of the 9th century. So are we to assume that the ancient Macedonians (still assuming that they had not mixed with the now Byzantine Greeks) waited a further 300 years until they finally decided to mix with the newly converted Slavs?

It would therefore appear that the claim that Slavs mixed with the ancient Macedonians would be highly in doubt.

Firstly, there is evidence that leads to a plausible argument that the ancient Macedonians were related to the other Greek peoples. This argument proposes that the ancient Macedonians where a primitive, tribal people closely related to the other Greeks but regarded as backward because they spoke a coarse dialect of Greek and because their political institutions comprised a single, “Homeric” style centralised monarchy as opposed to the democratic or oligarchic governments of the city states of the southern Greeks.

Secondly, it is unlikely that the ancient Macedonians did not merge with the other Greek peoples in the millennium following Alexander. Their culture, religion and language certainly adopted a “Hellenic” character which further merged with that of the other Greek peoples during the Roman and Byzantine periods.

Lastly, the absorption of ancient Macedonian elements (if some still existed separate from the Greeks) into the populations of the invading Slavic tribes from the 6th century onwards could not logically have been “en masse”. Though some assimilation is of course possible, the very character of the Hellenic peoples at this time, their commitment to the Orthodox church, their view of themselves as “Romanoi” believing in the imperial authority of Constantinople would have deterred them from mixing with a foreign, pagan, “barbaric” culture speaking a language different from their now native Greek.

Given the above, it is difficult to see how a significant portion of the “Ancient Macedonian” gene pool could have been assimilated with any other people apart from that of their “kinsmen” – i.e. the other Greek peoples who they shared the region with for over a millennia.

[admin]

Thanks Perseas. Thanks for also posting it on the Articles section.

[Amyntas]

Great article thanks for sharing it with us.

[preston]

Very good Perseas, thank you, its nice to see "mathimatical" minds putting things in perspective!!!

[The Blood of Dorus]

Originally Posted by Perseas

One Greek guy wrote this excellent syllogism about the "ethnicity" of Ancient Macedonians and i think its something everyone must read. After all these endless debates it seems the answer as to the relevance of the ‘ethnicity’ of the ancient Macedonians to today’s various peoples living in the Balkan peninsula rests on the answer to two related issues:

(1) Who where the ancient Macedonians?

(2) What link, if any, is there between the ancient Macedonians and today’s Balkan peoples?

As we all know, there is a lot of debate and conjecture as to who an ancient Macedonian was.

The major viewpoints as to whom the ancient Macedonians where, are essentially as follows:

(1) That they where Slavs;

(2) That they where some mixture of Illyrians, non-Greek Thracians, Dacians and Phrygians;

(3) That they where a separate race of the Balkan peninsula known as Macedonians;

(4) That they where essentially a Greek people, inter-mixed with some Illyrian/Thracian influences, and less developed culturally from the other Greek states to the south due to their isolation;

(5) That they where a Northern Greek people, less developed culturally from the other Greek states due to their isolation (and therefore regarded as ‘backward’ in comparison to the Greek city states).

Of these perspectives, stance (1) is not supported by any ancient sources, archaeological evidence or by any modern historian or scholar (including the ‘heavy weights’ of Badian, Fox, Hammond, Bosworth, Borza and Worthington).

Clearly, the ancient Macedonians where not a Slavic people as it is well documented that the Slavs did not migrate to the Balkan peninsula until the 6th century A.D. – over 850 years after the death of Alexander.

Stance (2) can also be dismissed as there is scant archaeological evidence or ancient authority which credits the notion that the ancient Macedonians where Illyrians (‘Albanians’), Thracians, Dacians (‘Vlachs’) or Phrygians. The sources make it clear that the ancient Macedonians thought of these peoples as ‘barbarians’, much in the same way that the southern Greeks thought of them.

Stance (3) has been a major point of debate and is the conclusion that scholars such as Eugene Borza have come to – that the ancient Macedonians where a distinct people, a people also distinct from the Greeks. This stance relies on a particular interpretation of the ancient sources, namely that the ancient Macedonians and Greeks where two different peoples. This interpretation lacks, however, convincing archaeological evidence to support it.

Stances (4) and (5) are similar, and represent the conclusions reached by historians and scholars such as Nicholas Hammond. This stance relies on a different interpretation of the ancient sources, namely that the ancient Macedonians where a Greek people sufficiently different in dialect, political institutions and relative level of culture that led the southern Greeks to regard them as backward. This interpretation also has a reasonable amount of archaeological evidence in its support.

The more favoured view of these last two perspectives would seem to be stance (4) as there is some evidence that the ancient Macedonians had absorbed some ‘barbarian’ influences, in particular from Illyria and Thrace.

So in summary, there would appear to be two remaining viable standpoints as to whom the Ancient Macedonians where:

(1) A distinct race, separate from the Greeks and other peoples of the region;

(2) An isolated northern people of essentially Greek origin but with some Illyrian and Thracian influences.

Both are plausible interpretations of the ancient sources.

Lets now examine the notion that the Slavs who eventually occupied the Balkan peninsula assimilated with the ancient Macedonians and that therefore the modern Slavs are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians.

This belief relies on the following assumptions:

(1) That the ancient Macedonians are a separate race and not a Greek people. This point is debateable, with authorities supporting both views.

(2) That the ancient Macedonians remained racially ‘pure’ until the Slavic invasions of the 6th Century AD.

(3) That the ancient Macedonians where eventually assimilated by the Slavic tribes in the region after Slavic settlement in the area.

Lets for the sake of analysis assume that point (1) above is correct – i.e. that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct race from the Greeks (if we didn’t make this assumption then the argument is over: the conclusion would be that the ancient Macedonians are a Greek people).

Lets next examine point (2). By the time of Philip and Alexander, the ancient Macedonians had clearly adopted a ‘Hellenic’ type of culture. They also certainly spoke Greek – at the very least the royal family and aristocracy certainly did. They also worshipped the same gods and venerated the heroes from Greek mythology. They both participated at the Olympic and other games. Like the rest of the Greeks, they regarded Illyrians, Thracians, Persians and other foreigners as ‘barbarians’. The Kingdom of Macedon was only a few miles away from the colonies of the southern Greeks who had established these cities mainly on the coast of Macedon. Obviously, there was constant contact between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greeks.

So if the assumption can be made that the ancient Macedonians were assimilated by the Slavs from the 6th century AD onwards, certainly it is just as plausible to assume that they were assimilated by the other Greek peoples over the 9 centuries from the time of Alexander the Great to the coming of the Slavs.

The southern Greeks were their ‘kinsmen’ – since at least Alexander’s time both spoke and understood a common language (Greek), both worshipped the same gods and shared a ‘Hellenistic’ culture. Both became an integral part of the Eastern Roman Empire and both became the defining culture of the Byzantine Empire. Both had embraced Christianity and determined the characteristics of the Orthodox faith.

As a result, it is a reasonable assumption to state that the ancient Macedonians and other Greeks ‘fused’ over the millennium leading up to the Slavic invasions of the 6th century AD.

Now lets turn to point (3) – the assertion that the ancient Macedonians were assimilated by the Slavic tribes that settled in the Balkans.

By the 6th century AD, the ancient Macedonians’ tongue was Greek, their culture was ‘Hellenic’ in character, they were Orthodox Christians and it is fair to say that they were effectively fused with the other Greek peoples in the region to provide the underlying ‘Greek’ character of the Byzantine Empire..

When the Slavs came their character was very different to that of the Byzantine world – the Slavs were foreigners, ‘barbarians’, who were pagans and spoke a language and had a culture completely alien to the ancient Macedonians and Greeks.

So why would the ancient Macedonians (assuming that they still did not assimilate with the other Greeks by this time) suddenly decide to be assimilated with a foreign people who they would surely have seen as barbarous pagans who spoke a language totally unintelligible to them and were part of a society whose culture was far removed to the Hellenistic one they had been a part of for a millennium? Would it not be more reasonable for the ancient Macedonians to mix with their fellow Christian neighbours, namely the Greeks? If they had not already done so, would it not make sense for them to either migrate to the areas not settled by the Slavs or to stay put with their fellow Greeks who remained in Macedonia?

The Slavs themselves were not converted to Christianity until the missionary activities of Saints Cyril and Methodius in the later part of the 9th century. So are we to assume that the ancient Macedonians (still assuming that they had not mixed with the now Byzantine Greeks) waited a further 300 years until they finally decided to mix with the newly converted Slavs?

It would therefore appear that the claim that Slavs mixed with the ancient Macedonians would be highly in doubt.

Firstly, there is evidence that leads to a plausible argument that the ancient Macedonians were related to the other Greek peoples. This argument proposes that the ancient Macedonians where a primitive, tribal people closely related to the other Greeks but regarded as backward because they spoke a coarse dialect of Greek and because their political institutions comprised a single, “Homeric” style centralised monarchy as opposed to the democratic or oligarchic governments of the city states of the southern Greeks.

Secondly, it is unlikely that the ancient Macedonians did not merge with the other Greek peoples in the millennium following Alexander. Their culture, religion and language certainly adopted a “Hellenic” character which further merged with that of the other Greek peoples during the Roman and Byzantine periods.

Lastly, the absorption of ancient Macedonian elements (if some still existed separate from the Greeks) into the populations of the invading Slavic tribes from the 6th century onwards could not logically have been “en masse”. Though some assimilation is of course possible, the very character of the Hellenic peoples at this time, their commitment to the Orthodox church, their view of themselves as “Romanoi” believing in the imperial authority of Constantinople would have deterred them from mixing with a foreign, pagan, “barbaric” culture speaking a language different from their now native Greek.

Given the above, it is difficult to see how a significant portion of the “Ancient Macedonian” gene pool could have been assimilated with any other people apart from that of their “kinsmen” – i.e. the other Greek peoples who they shared the region with for over a millennia.

Well done finding this guys - I'm the culprit for this piece, originally posting it in in the Alexander movie forums (a UK forum) under the name Ptolemy V back in 2004. The moderator, an English guy called Kevin, didn't like the usual "Greek/FYROM" fights on his forum but he actually gave this post a thumps up. Well, it makes sense doesn't it?

Anyway, the FYROMians attack this logic know by claiming that there was no Slav invasion and that the ancients were actually "Slavs" - Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians are the original Slavs according to the Maknews site.

BTW, I have also posted briefly on that site under the name "Battlefield of Cannae". It took me 4 attempts to register under differnet names (the first three usernames I chose were deleted before I could post!).

[preston]

Excelent work Dorus, we would like your view on our Slavophones (the ones speaking Dopia) as I have presented them in the forum "Ne Znam, Den Xero, I do not know", please have a look and if you like post something. Your reasoning is exeptional.

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by The Blood of Dorus

Well done finding this guys - I'm the culprit for this piece, originally posting it in in the Alexander movie forums (a UK forum) under the name Ptolemy V back in 2004. The moderator, an English guy called Kevin, didn't like the usual "Greek/FYROM" fights on his forum but he actually gave this post a thumps up. Well, it makes sense doesn't it?

Anyway, the FYROMians attack this logic know by claiming that there was no Slav invasion and that the ancients were actually "Slavs" - Macedonians, Illyrians and Thracians are the original Slavs according to the Maknews site.

BTW, I have also posted briefly on that site under the name "Battlefield of Cannae". It took me 4 attempts to register under differnet names (the first three usernames I chose were deleted before I could post!).

Nice to find you Ptolemy here!! We were looking for you there but i noticed you had to log in for more than a year. Maybe you could also help us find one more Greek from that forum since he was banned from the admin. I will send you a pm if you know what happened to him. Cheers mate!

[The Blood of Dorus]

I also used to post on that idiot Ilinden's Zhelevo forum before it closed down about a year ago - there I was "Phillip II", a constant source of annoyance to the nitwit Ilinden. There was another Greek guy called "Pericles" who posted there as well - anyone know what happened to him?

BTW anyone know if Ilinden is still posting his comical rubbish anywhere?

[Ptolemy]

I think i saw a nutjob with similar name spamming google groups. If i am not mistaken he is a regular spammer there.

[admin]

Originally Posted by The Blood of Dorus

I also used to post on that idiot Ilinden's Zhelevo forum before it closed down about a year ago - there I was "Phillip II", a constant source of annoyance to the nitwit Ilinden. There was another Greek guy called "Pericles" who posted there as well - anyone know what happened to him?

BTW anyone know if Ilinden is still posting his comical rubbish anywhere?

Welcome Dorus! I am honoured to have people like you in our forum!