The Macedonians are not Macedonians

[Nikos]

Hi, I am Greek, I am well known by other forums, and I came here uninvited.


I see a lot of educated people hanging around the web trying to prove that the Macedonians are not Macedonians. Come on guys get real.

We use a lot of arguments. A lot of evidence that they are Bulgarians, they are Slavic stock, they are nothing, they are whatever but Macedonians.
We imply that they are the non-Macedonians.

And who are the Macedonians?
We say that the ethnic Macedonians are... a few ethnic Greeks!!!!
This is hilarious.
And we demand the humanity to pay attention to the mambo-jumbo we say.

Three million people determine themselves as ethnic Macedonians for the last 100 years. And this is what counts for the humanity.
That’s why the humanity has turned its back to us and noone has ever told us that we are right on this matter.
Nobody will ask you to determine the ethnic identity of a neighboring nation.
They will ask them. And what they answer is what is registered.

We are supposed to defend the ancient Greek culture, but what we manage to do is to humiliate the modern Greek culture.

When the Yugoslavian crisis erupted, we came in front of the dilemma.
The Greeks were meant either to be the only European nation in the Balkans, or to be the only Balkan nation in Europe.
Unfortunately we chose the later.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Hello Nikos. Welcome to the forum, invited or not, you are most welcome here and do not need an invite. Interesting points you make on your post. I think it is all a matter of perspective, and this whole modern 'crisis' in the Balkans appears to have you realing. Your points are definatley taken and thanks for that.

I do ask though, how do you suggest the ancient Greek culture be defended? I ask because over the years I've learned anyone can put any sort of spin on anything. I can make a speech in front of cameras stating how I love one thing and with the proper editing and spin, it can appear I hate that very same thing. My point here is that there are more people pulliing the strings than at first appears. No, I'm not claiming a conspiracy, just more interests at work than we know, and for the interests that we do know about, I question what motivated them to act the way they do.

I do think that there is more to this and it can possibly be fixed. Nikos read throught the posts, get past the emotion (use it as an advantage when possible), as many of us haven't mastered that yet, and see that many people want the Macedonians on the other side of the border back. I don't think casting the Greeks as the villians of the Balkans solves any problems. We all know that is nonsense. I would like it very much if the neighbour to the north was strong and a great ally, that would be a God sent, but it can't be at the expense of giving up who we are because the world thinks people who have called themselves Macedonians for 100 years should get the name over people who have been Macedonians for 3000-4000 years. Just my opinion. I think you have valid contributions to make, but we shouldn't be ashamed to state who we are and should not accept people calling us anything but Greek because it suits their political and cultural objectives.

[akritas]

Fist welcome.
Second as about the invitation. I don’t think so any body needs special invitation to come here. Of course in a forum we prefer people that bring to the rest of us new ideas and exchanging information. The arguments is a way that we the Greeks know how to expressed in the several forms of our lives.
Of course under the forum rules.

Now in your thread
Who are the “Macedonians” or the Slav-Macedonians of the FYROM as I said and agree with me and Karakasidou!!!

There are three ways that we can identifying the “Macedonians” and not only them, which are often interrelated and overlapping.

The first relate to the citizens of geographic area. Upper or Low, Vardar, Pirin or Aegean e.t.c.
The second relates to all citizens of the independent political entity which at this time we call as a FYROM.
The third way is your way, the ethnic one and refer only to the Slav population in the region.

Personally I choose the first but the political situation in the Balkan show me the 2nd way and I explain further.:thumbs:

Are you agree with the above quote Nikos ?

[Istor]

Σιγά μην είσαι Έλληνας !!

Δε μου λες, αυτοί οι "Μακεδόνες"΄εχουν καμμιά σχέση με τους Μακεδόνες; Δηλαδή είναι περήφανοι Μακεδόνες ή όπως εσύ Έλληνας;
Και αν δεν έχουν σχέση με τους αρχαίους Μακεδόνες γιατί θέλουν να ονομάζονται Μακεδόνες; ΤΟΣΟ *edit* ΕΙΝΑΙ; Η ΜΗΠΩΣ ΑΠΛΑ ο Παράδεισος τους απέκρυψε και διέστρεψε την αλήθεια ώστε να νομίζουν ότι είναι Μακεδόνες, και επομένως είναι καθήκον ΟΛΩΝ μας να τους πούμε την αλήθεια για τη Μακεδονία;

edit
Γιάννη μην βρίζεις σε παρακαλώ πολύ.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Re ton Nikola....

Humanity ????

What exactly is the EU's thesis on the name issue ???
What exactly is the US congress thesis on the name issue ???

A few ???
Where do you live. If the Hellinic population of Mkedonia constitutes a 'handfull' what does the self-proclaimed population of FYROM constitute ???

According to the CIA World Factbook..

Population: 2,045,262 (July 2005 est.)

Ethnic groups:

FYROMian: 64.2%, which constitues =1.313.058
Albanian 25.2%, = 515.406
Turkish 3.9%,
Roma 2.7%,
Serb 1.8%,
other 2.2%

So as we see, FYROMians alone constitute the 1.313.058 of the just over 2.000.000 population. A number that is lower than the population of Thessaloniki alone... So who constitutes the handfull ???
please do use accurate info in the future..

Finally if we can say we've degraded this country it is unfortunately due to this exact mentality.. When will we remember Isocrates speaking of a 'linage noble and pure', when will we remeber the 'TAN H EPI TAS' when will we stop having this mentality ofselling out to what someone else wants, but instead strive to obtain it ???

That dear Niko is the problem...

PS. Please do inform me exactly how YOU personally 'defend' the ancient Hellinic culture and when is the 'modern' Hellinic culture humiliated. Would it be when you remeber the above quotes, or when you accept being slapped around ???

[Nikos]

Thanks.

Yes, my point of view is that those who were using the identification “Macedonian” for many centuries were Greeks, and they are one of the ingredients of the modern Greek nation.
We will not forget that we are Greeks because the Macedonians want so.
The Greeks are Greeks from Macedonia to Crete, from Thrace to Peloponesse, from Argirocastro to Cyprus, and... wherever.


The big quote, however is the defense of the ancient Greek history.
Unfortunately we do not respect the ancient Greek history.
We use it in order to give more leverage to ourselves, and to increase the reservations to our hotels.
The Macedonians want to do exactly the same with the ancient Macedonian history which the Greeks consider their copyright; and here comes the trouble with Greece.
So the story is a dispute on who will use the ancient Macedonian history for their promotion. Or to abuse the history if you prefer.

All of those who call them FYROM systematically forget that they are former Yugoslavians, that gained their independence only 15 years ago.
Greece is independent 175 years now. We are not in the same stage with them, and therefore we do not have the same needs, and we must not have the same goals.
They need to determine themselves, we need to improve ourselves.
I am not arrogant towards them, but they are at the initial steps of their nation-state and we are in a more mature stage.

I mean it is not productive to compete with them in identity matters. We have nothing to gain.

-----------

I was typing when others appeared.
Anyway, they are around three million with their numerous communities in Canada, Australia, Germany, Sweden, even Greece, Bulgaria, etc.
And the EU says FYROM due to the Greek veto.
Look how do the media and the people of the European countries refer to this country.
And USA has recognised Macedonia even if the congress may say whatever in order to satisfy the Greek lobby.
And the CIA factbook clearly speaks about Macedonian ethnicity, and not FYROMIAN. Please do not manipulate the information.


--------------
I choose to ignore Istor (for the moment) because I want to be polite in this forum (not like in the other one)

[goldblood]

we have nothign to gain? its not about gaining anything its about people trying to steal our history.

[akritas]

Niko
You said that the big issue is the financial matter. I disagree with you. This state tries to stand up in its legs and as you know after the Germany we are the biggest investor on it.
The problem is not why want the Greeks, but what the Slav Macedonian want.
They want to live with the Greeks with peace and with out tendencies?
I and many others know that the foreigners don’t understand why the Greeks interesting so much for the name issue.
But is only the name ? All the educational system created by vaptized Greek,Serbian and Bulgars as “Macedonians”. And you know that.
They live in an illusion that the bad Greeks want their disaster.
Read what karakasidou mention for this state

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...50&postcount=3

In this forum you will speak with bilateral Greeks, Greeks that they know their language and what they came from. :thumbs:

And Last the numbers is not 3 millions. Orphic is right
According the ethologue estimated about 2 mil

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_co...name=Macedonia

and I think istor will be calm in order to debate each other:thumbs:

[Orphic_Hymn]

Consider copyright ???

How can your blood be nothing but a mere consideration ???

That Niko is the exact mentality our progressive pseudo-journalists, all so fond of globalization strive to pass. The rediculously unjustified feeling of guilt and a compasion towards a newly formed nation..

WHO showed any form of compasion towards this nation (Hellas) during its early years of independance, would it be the same powers that enforced non-existand loans with bloodsucking tax rates, would it be the same powers that toyed us in Epirus, and Mikra Asia ???

Your very existance as a country isn't made off someone's compasion but on the blood shed by those that believed in the cause.
The best example would be our own independance, the 'Powers' allegedly striving for our saviour on one hand and on the other for their own benefit, so we find , the French sending Letellieu as an Ottoman advisor at Navarino, the dispatchment of E.Cordington for defeating the Ottomans at Navarino...etc.
(weren't these the same two 'powers' that allegedly wanted us freed ??)

Through our efforts in this fora, you'll find several examples similar if not identical to the construction of FYROM's history.. Bulgaria, conveniently forgetting that they originated from mongol tribes and claiming Orpheus, Albanians in a dispute with the FYROMians on who is the actual decendant of Alexander, Slavs making claims of decendance of neolithic civilizations that allegedly influenced those of Hellas, totally neglecting that even then.. civilization began here.. Turks claiming everything from Troy and Homer to shiprecks dated back to 900 BC as TURKISH

We may be laughing about this now, but have no doubt that this will turn boomerang on us in the future.. and why ??? cause we're showing the compasion you mention...

Its a propaganda war, a war on a revisionist attempt to re-write history.. The humiliation of the modern Hellinic culture you mentioned, would be to sit around and do nothing.. honoring your past comes only through resistance..

[Spartan]

Yiasou Nikos,

You have some good points as to the stages of developement the 2 countries are in. Yes Greece is a much older country and has had time to mature. Greece has also even in it's infancy, NEVER cliamed anything it wasn't. We Greeks know who we are and what we are and because of this we have never had to claim something we were not.

Now for the country of FYROM. The country is young(as you have pointed out) and this is why things need to be set straight early on and as of now. This is just like a human child. The examples set by the parents in the development years are the most crucial in the childs life and will determine what kind of person that child will grow up to be. If we want a child to grow up into a respectable, honorable human being then we don't just give him or her whatever they want or demand. We ensure that there are boundaries and limits set. We also punish the child for not doing what is right, so they will not commit the same offense over and over.

My question to you is "What example are you giving the child(country) if you allow them to take, steal or claim anything they want?" If you allow, or anyone else, allows them to throw temper tantrums and then just give in and give them what they want, what GOOD are you doing for them? All you do is create a spitefull, arrogant person that believes that people should ALWAYS give him what he wants and that people owe him because he has since infancy gotten everything he wants.

To put it more simply, "Do we want a child who is going to grow up and play nice with the neighbors kids or one that is always going to be a brat and cause problems?"

If the citizens and government of that country continue on the line that the parents have allowed them to follow then they will end up being that brat that no one likes. This of course will lead to many, more serious problem in their adulthood.

Every country has the right to decide their own fate, but what they don't have the right to do is to infinge on others! When there was already for the past 90 years a legal district in Northern Greece called "Macedonia" what gives them the right to make a claim on the name? This is the same case for the United Kingdom when they changed their name from Great Britain, due to respect for their neighbors the French where Brittany is.

So do you think the French made a big fuss about nothing?
2nd, what makes FYROM so special that just due to their age they don't have to have respect their neighbors?

What have they done to have such special privelages to where they are allowed to be little brats?

Now as far as ethnicity goes, no one has never claimed that the people of the country don't exist. No one ever claimed that they are not a distinct ethnicity, (a distinct ethnicity newly created since the 1880's).
The important part is what gives them the right to call themselves
"Macedonians"?

After all if you look at the modern region of Macedonia you will see that only around 20% of their country lays within its borders. Furthermore, if you look at the Ethnic make-up of their population you will see that only 1.3 million out of 2 million are actually categorized as "Macedonian". Of these 1.3 mil. how many of them do you think actually ORIGINATED in the REGION of MACEDONIA? Logic would point out that only around 20%(percentage of their country within the REGION) of these people actually has anything to do with Macedonia! So that gives a a number of 260,000 people out of a population of 2 million that actually have any possible legitimate claim at being called "Macedonian".

Now take into consideration that Greece has a district called "Macedonia" with more that 2 million people living in it. Who do you think actually has any legitimate claims on the name. This is 2,000,000 -vs- 230,000.

Finally, let's say they did have a legitimate claim to call themselves
"Macedonian", why is it they claim to be ETHNIC Macedonians instead of just citizens of a Macedonian Nation?

After all there is a big jump from Ethnicity to Nationality!


You do have a good point as to Greece needing to improve itself.
At the same time though, there is no reason why the Greeks can't also defend themselves from little Brats!