History of hellenization - who is really greek today?

[nitkov]

Slavic blood, albanian heroes, orthodox turks, Vlach politicians, assimilated macedonians and albanians?
Is any one truely greek today?


It is a striking fact that the leading defenders of Greek liberty at this time were largely Non-Greek. Koundouriotis was decended from the Albanian invadors of Greece in the 14th century,and spoke Greek only with difficulty. His principal colleague was John Kolettis, a Vlakh who had been Ali Pasha's court doctor at Ioannina. One of the few leaders who maintained resistance far to the north of the Gulf of Corinth was the Souliote,Marko Botsaris,whos followers were largely Albanian. By a strange chance, it happend that two of the Turkish commanders-in-chief during the war, Khurshid Pasha and Muhammad Rehid Pasha(known to the Greeks as Kiutahi), were by birth Orthodox Christians, who had been converted to Islam for the sake of career in the Sultans service.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 139

Greece included considerably fewer than half of those who regarded themselves as Greeks by virtue of their language,their religion, and (less plausibly) their race. It was easy to stir up agitation in favour of enlarging Greece's frontiers by a progressive extension of "enosis" (union).

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 163

In practice the Greeks had only exchanged arbitrary rule by Bavarians for arbitrary rule by others scarcely closer to themselves. The first six prime ministers under the new constitutions were all war-time leaders, several of them only nominally Greek. They included the Phanariote Mavrokordatos,the Vlakh Kolettis, and the Albanian Koundouriotis. With the exception of the last prime minister of Otho's reign, Admiral Kanaris,all of them paid litle regard to the constitution which had cost them so much toil and intrigue.
Mavrokordatos in particular culpably betrayed his trust as Greece's first constitutional prime minister(March 1844), and was compelled to resign within six months. Kolettis, who succeeded him in August 1844,remained in office until his death three years later. Neither took naturally to democratic principles, though both had a superficial acquanintance with Western Europe. Mavrokordatos' background was the Phanariote society of Constantinpole and the Rumanian principalities.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 162


The conditions of the war were now completely changed. The Greeks, who had been squandering the money provided by the loans in every sort of senseless extravagance, affected to despise the Egyptian invaders, but they ~ were soon undeceived. On the 21st of March Ibrahim Mo,ea. had laid siege to Navarino, and after some delay a Greek force under Skourti, a Hydriote sea-captain, was sent to its relief. The Greeks had in all some 7000 men, Suliotes, Albanians, armatoli from Rumelia, and some irregular Bulgarian and Viach cavalry.

http://63.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/...NCE_WAR_OF.htm


Anthony D. Smith points out, specifically in reference to the modern Greek nation, "Greek demographic continuity was brutally interrupted in the late sixth to eighth centuries A.D. by massive influxes of Avar, Slav and later, Albanian immigrants." He adds that modern Greeks "could hardly count as being of ancient Greek descent, even if this could never be ruled out.”


A process of "re-hellenization" took place, led by the Greek Orthodox Church, using the vehicle of the Greek language. To use the words of Nicholas Cheetham, (in the south) "religion and Hellenization marched hand in hand." The Slavs and Albanians, in particular, converted to Christianity and learned to speak Greek.

Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands. In the early nineteenth century, the population of Athens was 24 percent Albanian, 32 percent Turkish, and only 44 percent Greek. The village of Marathon, scene of the great victory in 490 B.C., was, early in the nineteenth century, almost entirely Albanian."

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens says that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian speakers.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.

Finlay recognized " the vigorous Albanians of Hydra, the warlike Albanians of Suli, the persevering Bulgarians of Macedonia, and the laborious Vallachians on the banks of the Aspropotamos" who embarked together on a struggle for Greek independence, "as heartily as the posterity of the ancient inhabitants of the soil of Hellas. Nicholas Hammond tells us that in the Greek War of Independence the Albanians, above all, drove the Turks out.

According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the nineteenth-century "Greeks," who had so recently won their independence from the Turks, not only did not call themselves Hellenes (they learned this label later from the intellectual nationalists); they did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Albanian, Slavonic, or Vlach dialects."

The Editor of The Sunday Telegraph argues that Greece has been ruthless in erasing traces of ethnic diversity, and suggests that the desperation of its actions, including the Greek claim to a monopoly of the classical past (in which all peoples of European origins have a share) can be explained by the fact that the Greeks today are a mixture of Slavs, Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies.



... the name of one of the Albanian leaders who fought so valiantly for Greek Independence against the Ottoman Turks in 1820 was Laskarina Bubalina, a female commander? And that other Albanian leaders in that same Greek war against the Turks were Çeo Picari, Foto Xhavella, Gjon Leka, Rrapo Hekali, Hodo Leka, Tafil Buzi, Shahin Qafezezi, and Marko Boçari?

http://www.frosina.org/infobits/more_012103.shtml


Clark quotes a Greek religious refrain from that era:

'Albanians, Wallachians, Bulgarians,
speakers of other tongues, rejoice!
And ready yourselves all to become Greeks
Abandoning your barbaric tongue, speech, customs
So that to your descendants they may appear as myths'
("Victoria Clark, Why Angels Fall. A journey through Orthodox Europe from Byzantium to Kosovo Macmillan: London, 2000 ISBN: 0 333 75185 X; 2. FATHER GREGORY TILLETT, The British Orthodox Church".)


http://www.neww.org/pipermail/academ...st/000329.html

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens, is unable to support the Greek view on this matter. He says that by the middle of the fourteenth
and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the
Peloponnese were Albanian speakers. The fascinating point is that the people with whom they were competing for land were overwhelmingly not the original Greek-speaking Roman citizens, but the new breed of Greek-speaking Slavs. As Hammond says, many Greek-
speaking people at that point in time were probably ethnic Slavs.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the
eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian
role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.


"I watched the Koutsovlachi disappear in Thessaly over a period of twenty years. I remember the first time I went up there in 1957, I was stunned, it was another world--it was Rumania. Blond, blue-eyed women wearing incredibly beautiful costumes: white, with about twelve to fifteen inches of thick fringes at the bottom, in saffron, black, and ocher. And everywhere I went, there were ducks and geese, which I didn't see anywhere else in Greece. Ducks and geese and pigs--standard east and central European farm culture. But I saw all of that disappear.

It's a pity because Greece has lost the Sarakatsani, it's lost the Vlachi, the Koutsovlachi, the Karagounidhes -- it's lost all these fascinating minority groups, and now people are getting up and trying to stop it, but they're about twenty years too late."

--"A Point of Contact: An Interview with Nikos Stavroulakis," by Peter Pappas in The Greek American (January 9, 1988)


"The obsession with Greek racial identity involves the distortion
of the history of the thousands of years when there was no such
thing as a Greek nation state. The early Slav invasions which
reached far into the Peloponnese and left Slav-speaking
settlements well into the fifteenth century are conveniently
ignored. So too is the fact that in the early nineteenth century
the population of Athens was 24 per cent Albanian, 32 per cent
Turkish and only 44 per cent Greek.

Simon Mcllwaine, The Strange Case of the Invisible Minorities
-Institutional Racism in the Greek State, International Society
for Human Rights, British Section, Dec 1993.


No wonder the kodjabashis, the Peloponnesian notables, were disparagingly referred to as "Christian Turks". One hero of the war of independence,Photakos Kyrysanthopoulis, said that the only difference was one of names: instead of being called Hasan the Kodijabashi, he would be called Yanni: in stead of praying to a mosque he would go to church.

A concise history Of Greece
Richard Clogg
Page 42

The Academy was built with bequest from Simon Sinas, the hugely wealthy son of Georgios Sinas, a Hellenised Vlach whose family came from Moschopolis in Southern Albania, who made his fortune in the Habsburg Empire and was himself the donor of Theophilos Hansen's observatory (1843-6).

A concise history Of Greece
Richard Clogg
Page 79





And finally, some haunting final words for the greeks:

"In the 1830's an Austrian classicist called JJ Fallmereyer made a study of the South Slav migrations and concluded that not just that the Greeks are Slavs ,but not a drop of pure Greek blood was to be found in the modern Greek. In Athens needless to say , his name is not much ”…. Consequently the medieval and modern Greeks are …are not the descendants of the Greeks of Antiquity , and their Hellenism is artificial . (Robert Browning , Greece Old and New , edited by Tom Winnifrith and Penelope Murray , the Macmillan Press , London 1963. )

[admin]

These are opinions of people not facts... if you do not have facts your posts will be deleted...

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved... like your posts and quotes you mention (zero facts, no argument no one cares....)

The Slavs have EVERYTHING to prove as
1) your language is not ancient
2) your language was emerged very recently from 2 Greek monks Methodus and Cyrilus
3) your history goes back to very recent times ie a few centuries before
4) your country is a few years old
5) you have very few artifacts, and even those come from Greeks that used to inhabit those areas
6) your population is over 40% Albanian, Bulgarian, and other ethnicities and you are saying the Greece which is composed of 99% Greeks are non-Greek???


show me EVIDENCE, facts, artifacts not quotes from some opinionated unfactual "thinkers"

[admin]

The second phase, between 500 and 900 AD, saw Slavic, Turkish and other tribes on the move, re-settling in Eastern Europe and gradually making it predominantly Slavic. Moreover, more Germanic tribes migrated within Europe during this period, including the Lombards (to Italy), and the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes (to the British Isles). See also: Avars, Huns, Arabs, Vikings, Varangians. The last phase of the migrations saw the coming of the Hungarians to the Pannonian plain.
from wikipedia if you need more factual evidence I can easily collect it from Anthropology sources.

If you settled into Eastern Europe 500 to 900AD when did you settle near Skopje???

[nitkov]

Originally Posted by admin

These are opinions of people not facts... if you do not have facts your posts will be deleted...

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved...

The Slavs have EVERYTHING to prove as
1) your language is not ancient
2) your language was emerged very recently from 2 Greek monks Methodus and Cyrilus
3) your history goes back to very recent times ie a few centuries before
4) your country is a few years old
5) you have very few artifacts, and even those come from Greeks that used to inhabit those areas
6) your population is over 40% Albanian, Bulgarian, and other ethnicities and you are saying the Greeks who have been 99% Greeks are non-Greek???

hahahahaha.....i like ur replay....first, subject of a thread are not slavic people but greeks. if u want to discuss it, open another thread, i am looking forward to debate with people like u....about this thread, if these quotes are only opinions as u reffer, isnt forums a places where opinions should be expressed and discussed. isnt a forums a places where people prove whats right and whats wrong? u want to delete my thread because u know that all i ve wrote is true. otherwise, u would discuss it and prove me wrong. but u cant.

another thing,
u lie that u are phd. if u are really phd than u should know basic principe of debating things. but no, u are about to delete things that u dont like....phd my ass.... carry on looser, delete the thread. just to let u know, i ve saved my post and ur respond.....carry on looser......hahahahahahahahah

(I have left everything here permnently (i.e. forever, for everyone to see and read, and laugh) as you will be an example for others in illogical and uneducated mannerisms.)

[admin]

For a fact I have a Ph.D and an M.Sc. It may be hard for you to imagine those things if you have very little education which seems to be the case.
If you would would care to discuss molecular genetics, genetics and anything else molecular I would be happy to give you lessons.
As for your great Arnaiz papers "Tissue Antigens" HLA typing paper, I will make sure it is rejected just like his other papers....Several of my colleagues have been asked to submit letters of rebuttal if you understand what that means.
You will see several papers on Northern Greeks and Ancient DNA evidence coming out soon when I get enough grant money. Then we will not only have historical, artifactual, and other support but also DNA evidence...which means the end of your imagination and wannabe history....

something your country tried to do with poor science and bribery but did not succeed...and if you keep making personal and ethnic derogatory remarks you will be banned forever by ip and email and you will be reported for racial slurs to your internet provider.

Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.
Dropped Scientific Paper Lacks Merit - Nature

[nitkov]

Originally Posted by admin

I am a PhD and my opinion is that Slavs are nomads that came from the North. That is a fact. Now I should write a book also, however I will make sure I use DNA evidence to prove it, I have an opinion but a hypothesis/opinion is worth ZIPPO if it is not proved...

just have a look how pathetic u are.....first u say in ur opinion slavs are nomads and than u say that is a fact, supported with 0 sources...hahahahahaha

isnt it opinion, would u delete ur post too?....looser!

seconf thing....now u really convinced me that u are phd my ass. slavs are nomads.....hahahahahah....if u know anything about slavs, than u should know that slavic people are conected to the farmer culture, not nomadic...mr. phd.....hahahahahah

[nitkov]

Originally Posted by admin

show me EVIDENCE, facts, artifacts not quotes from some opinionated unfactual "thinkers"

how about showing me contemporary evidences about what u claim for slavs and soupousd slavic invasion.....mr. phd!

[admin]

Just to get you started:
Slavic Migrations

[admin]

Byzantine documents provide information about the siege of Thessaloniki by the Avaro-Slavs in 586: "If one would imagine that all Macedonians, Thracians and Achaeans gathered in Thessaloniki at that time, all of them together would not represent even a small part of that barbarian multitude which then besieged the town."

NOTE: Macedonians Thracians and Achaens are refering to the Greeks here and the seiging SLAVS are exactly what they are

http://www.unet.com.mk/mian/slavsin.htm

[admin]

Slavic Anthropology Evidence of New Settlements