Debate for the "Macedonian" Minority in Greece

[sveti dimitrija]

No, there is a Muslim minority. It is 50% Turkish, 35% Pomak and 15% Roma. Thats why it's called Muslim and not Turkish.

This is interesting. When I made the observation that some Southern Greeks had very dark skin, I was ridiculed as racist. And yet here you post specified percentages around the make-up of what Greece calls a "Muslim minority". It is of course not up to these individuals to give identify themselves as a minority as they see fit. It is up to the Greek state.




The Muslim minority has full rights.

We should be more accurate. The Muslim minority has full rights to self identify in a way that the Greek State sees fit.




And when those parties collaborate with other nationalists and nationalist websites like Rainbow has, what do you say then?

Just because one is not recognized as a minority does not mean they have no rights, they have rights just as any other Greek citizen. Not only does Rainbow have their own political party, not only do they openly speak their language, but they also circulate that bastardised Abecedar language booklet freely. Yeah, we are really denying their rights.... France doesn't recognize any minorities either. Are they bad guys denying human rights??

[i]Rainbow and you Skopjans are playing a political game, you know it and we know it. They could care less about being "Macedonian", it's all a political game...And it won't work. And they have realized this, because they gain no support in the region. Because the Dopia speakers hate them. Their numbers are insignificant.

Why would Rainbow activists be playing political games to undermine Greece to the advantage of these "Scorpions" who are so reviled in Greece. Why would they? Could they hate Greece so much? Or could it be that they simply seek freedom of expression to be recognised as a minority.

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by sveti dimitrija

No, there is a Muslim minority. It is 50% Turkish, 35% Pomak and 15% Roma. Thats why it's called Muslim and not Turkish.

This is interesting. When I made the observation that some Southern Greeks had very dark skin, I was ridiculed as racist. And yet here you post specified percentages around the make-up of what Greece calls a "Muslim minority". It is of course not up to these individuals to give identify themselves as a minority as they see fit. It is up to the Greek state.

.

No its not up to the Greek state, its up to the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne which specifically protects the rights of the "Muslim minority" of Thrace and was meant to protect also the "Christian minority" of Constantinople.

Greece, being the most tolerant and civillised nation in the Balkans has NEVER violated the rights of the Muslims in Thrace under the treaty DESPITE the fact that in 1955 EVERYSINGLE Greek was deported from Constantinople. That should have voided the treaty yet STILL Greece respects the rights of the Muslim minority.

As for this "Macedonian minority" What treaty mentions them? As a matter of fact what treaty from the 19th and early 20th centuries, which basically lay down the principles of Balkan minorities mentions ethnic Macedonians period? The answer is NO TREATY because the so-called "Macedonian minority" just like the so-called "Maceodnian ethnicity" is political minority and a relic of the cold war with 2955 members.

Or could it be that they simply seek freedom of expression to be recognised as a minority.

Did you not just see the videos? Werent they expressing themselves? Was the Greek police not defending them? Greece is a democracy, they can say WHATEVER and publish WHATEVER they want but like I always say it will be a cold day in Hell before they are recognised by the Greek state and people as a "Macedonian minority" something which history shows us they clearly arent. And further, to call them that is an insult to the true history of the region and a vindication of decades of communist aggression against Greece.

[sveti dimitrija]

No its not up to the Greek state, its up to the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne which specifically protects the rights of the "Muslim minority" of Thrace and was meant to protect also the "Christian minority" of Constantinople.

My understanding is that Turkey recognises the "Greek" minority in Istanbul. There may only be 1000 of them, but Greece looks after its own. Actually I should rephrase that, Greece looks after anybody pushing its national interests. Are you saying that as a result of the 1923 Treaty Turkey is content that Greece does not recognise a Turkish minority?

Greece, being the most tolerant and civillised nation in the Balkans has NEVER violated the rights of the Muslims in Thrace under the treaty DESPITE the fact that in 1955 EVERYSINGLE Greek was deported from Constantinople. That should have voided the treaty yet STILL Greece respects the rights of the Muslim minority.

So you are saying since 1955 all greeks were deported. My understanding is that Turkey recognises the 1000 Greeks in Istanbul.

As for this "Macedonian minority" What treaty mentions them? As a matter of fact what treaty from the 19th and early 20th centuries, which basically lay down the principles of Balkan minorities mentions ethnic Macedonians period? The answer is NO TREATY because the so-called "Macedonian minority" just like the so-called "Maceodnian ethnicity" is political minority and a relic of the cold war with 2955 members.


Did you not just see the videos? Werent they expressing themselves? Was the Greek police not defending them? Greece is a democracy, they can say WHATEVER and publish WHATEVER they want but like I always say it will be a cold day in Hell before they are recognised by the Greek state and people as a "Macedonian minority" something which history shows us they clearly arent. And further, to call them that is an insult to the true history of the region and a vindication of decades of communist aggression against Greece.[/quote]

Those people would have been lynched had it not been for the police. If it were up to most members of the Greek parliament, they would give that sort of lynching the go ahead. But these days the world is watching, and the international condemnation would have been too much for Greece.

[Tsontos]

My understanding is that Turkey recognises the "Greek" minority in Istanbul. There may only be 1000 of them, but Greece looks after its own. Actually I should rephrase that, Greece looks after anybody pushing its national interests. Are you saying that as a result of the 1923 Treaty Turkey is content that Greece does not recognise a Turkish minority?

Your understanding is WRONG. Turkey groups Christian Armenians, Arabs and Greeks in the one category. Of course Turkey is not content that Greece doesnt recognise an ethnic minority. They are not content despite the treaty they signed and violated in 1955.

So you are saying since 1955 all greeks were deported. My understanding is that Turkey recognises the 1000 Greeks in Istanbul.

Of 200,000 Greeks In Constantinople less than 5000 remain today

Istanbul Pogrom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pogrom greatly accelerated emigration of ethnic Greeks from the Istanbul region (the former Constantinople), reducing the 200,000-strong Greek minority in 1924 to just over 5,000 in 2005.[4]

Those people would have been lynched had it not been for the police. If it were up to most members of the Greek parliament, they would give that sort of lynching the go ahead. But these days the world is watching, and the international condemnation would have been too much for Greece.

We cant win then can we? Maybe you would have rathered they got lynched to further FYROM's political aims? I would like to see a source for the survey you must have seen regarding the personal opinions of Greek MPs to make such a statement. Greece's police must be much better than FYROMs having in mind the deaths of the pro-Bulgarian movement in FYROM

[Tsontos]

By the way Sveti, if you can ever come up with an answer to my question please start a new thread:

Where has any treaty concerning our region EVER mentioned a Macedonian ethnicity or minority in ANY country?

[akritas]

Sveti your partie in the last elections took only 2500 votes in the Florina,Pella,Kastoria,Pella and Thessaloniki.
In Thrace as I said took 1200 votes and the rest of the votes was in whole Greece.

Do you think that collaboration with a small part of the Turkish in Thrace will gonna help your aim ?

Also why Peter Stoyanof(Petros Stoides), one from the foundation members of Uranio Toxo (x-MAKIVE) now disseminate the Bulgarian nationalist thesis?
Why ?

[oldjedi]

Originally Posted by sveti dimitrija

The Muslim minority has full rights.

We should be more accurate. The Muslim minority has full rights to self identify in a way that the Greek State sees fit.

Nop ... The status of the Muslim minority , is determined by the Lausanne Treaty , signed , by both Turkey and Greece ..

It is WELL KNOWN , that the agreements resulting from a treaty , can ONLY BE CHANGED , by signing ANOTHER TREATY ...

So the Lausanne Treaty is in full power , up to now . AND the Lausanne Treaty regognises ONLY a religious minority , NOT an ethnic minority

YES , lets be accurate .

[oldjedi]

Originally Posted by sveti dimitrija

My understanding is that Turkey recognises the "Greek" minority in Istanbul. There may only be 1000 of them, but Greece looks after its own. Actually I should rephrase that, Greece looks after anybody pushing its national interests. Are you saying that as a result of the 1923 Treaty Turkey is content that Greece does not recognise a Turkish minority?

Yes ... Turkey signed the Treaty recognizing a GREEK minority in Konstantinopolis , AND a MUSLIM minority in Greece .. There is no such feeling as being "content" or "not-content" . Agreements , are agreements and BOTH parties are obliged to honour their signature .

The difference between Greece and Turkey , is that while the Muslim minority , lives well and prosperous in Greece , the Greek minority was chased , having casualties , after another ethnic cleansing that Turks did in 1955 .

So you are saying since 1955 all greeks were deported. My understanding is that Turkey recognises the 1000 Greeks in Istanbul.

YES , because she agreed to recognise them . Of course in the time of the agreement the Greek population was about 200.000 .... now are only 2 or 3.000 .

Those people would have been lynched had it not been for the police.

This is only a personal conclusion ... not nesesarily true ..

[Hellas7]

This is interesting. When I made the observation that some Southern Greeks had very dark skin, I was ridiculed as racist.

Because you are a racist. And southern Greeks don't even have dark skin. Have you ever been to the Peloponnesos? Most Greeks from the islands have dark skin, mostly the fisherman at that, because they are in the freaking sun all day.


Take a look at our national teams, do you see any very dark skinned people? These are Greeks from all over the country on one team.


http://www.vodafone.gr/vodafone/img/...football01.jpg
http://wiki.phantis.com/images/thumb...x-1987team.jpg
http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/downl...obasketcup.jpg


And even if they DID have dark skin, SO WHAT? Is dark skin somebody inferior to you? Is that how you try to insult somebody? The NT has one player of gypsy origin on the team, he is very dark, I bet you would hate to have him on your white slavic team, wouldn't you.


We all can't be as white nationalists as you are. http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/wik...ypsies18hw.jpg

And yet here you post specified percentages around the make-up of what Greece calls a "Muslim minority".

Thats because that is the make-up of what they are, you can find it in HRW reports also. How this is being racist is beyong me. Another idiotic comment by a drive by troll poster....

It is of course not up to these individuals to give identify themselves as a minority as they see fit. It is up to the Greek state.

It's up to neither, it's up to the Lusuanne Treaty which Greece has signed and followed. We signed a treaty and we have stuck by it.

We should be more accurate. The Muslim minority has full rights to self identify in a way that the Greek State sees fit.

Another dickhead comment. It has the rights as set out by the treaty. Religious freedom, language schools, and so on.

Why would Rainbow activists be playing political games to undermine Greece to the advantage of these "Scorpions" who are so reviled in Greece. Why would they? Could they hate Greece so much? Or could it be that they simply seek freedom of expression to be recognised as a minority.

Let us count the ways. Do they hate Greece? Ofcourse they do. Why else would people who fund/run Rainbow sites also be connected to those who run nationalists sites? They are also communists, and we know how much they admire the country who kicked their asses not to long ago. I have no idea what a Scorpion is.

And why do they want to be recognized as a minority? Why do they desire so much for this to be? Could it be because this minority would be labled "Macedonian" at a time when the country does not only not recognize such, but is in a political battle with FYROM? What do you think their real goal is? Why do you think they care? For rights? They have rights now don't they. As much nonsense as they like to spit out they have rights.


Isn't it funny that this party and people have popped up now, in the 1990's? Where were they in the 80's? Hell, where were they when Greece was trying to join the EU? Talk about getting somebody by the balls, they could have nailed us to the stake as we were getting ready to join. Yet not a peep. Only later did they finally manage to magiaclly appear.

But it's ok, we know they were oppressed. Yep, people were scared stiff to come out and say anything. Now that the "world is watching" and Greece cannot do what it wants, hundreds of thousands of ethnic Macedonians have come pouring out to become free, to have their rights and langauge, to be identified...

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot they gain no support whatsoever. Almost like they were pulled out of thin air.

[akritas]

Hellas7 please delete the insults!!!!..dont fall in his level