Foustanella

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Translation:
I'm a hypernationalistic fool that can't take the damn blinkers of nationalism off long enough to see that academic papers like Hysperia and archaeologists like Paul Rehak can't simply be promoting the descent from Tonga and Tunic theory to humble inferiority complexed Albanians.. The very same inferiority complexed Albanians, who are so full of it they openly reject the very words of those who's memories they allegedly cherish, while openly jump at every chance they find to discredit their own words and spit on their memory..

It was nice talking to ya Grace.

I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)

Cut the crap Grace.. you've presented your arguments and we presented ours.. the difference is that you choose to believe some "historian" above the very people you claim relation to..
As a final attempt to try and sho you what you're claiming... just think.. a similar case would be some historian in the year 2586 AD wrtting about you.. and claim that you were anything but Albanian.. those that would oppose to this claim (the nationalists according to you) would cite your own words, in which you openly state that you're nothing but Albanian.. yet some internet fool would suggest that the "historian" knows best and would totally disregard what you yourself have said and written...

So who's the blinded nationalist, the one that quotes some "historian" that has written not some academic paper, but a damn novel or the one that suggests that you knew what your beliefs were and cites your own words ?


While I've mentioned this more than a few times, I want you to read it and then comment on it.
The current authority of Albanology Dr. Robert Elsie has written the following article, I'd like you to read it and comment on the fact that he notes that Michael Attaliates, the very first Byzantine to write about Albanians, also mentions Arvanites as a separate entity!!! (see paragraph 1 lines 5-7)
Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the according to you, same people, by using two different names ?
(see M.Attaliates History 1.18.19 for the entry Albanians and 1.297.21 for the entry Arvanites)

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Grace

and what you don't realize is that by posting that Egyptian photo you are proving our point. That the fustanella is an ancient dress of the Mediterranean, adopted by a variety of cultures. The Greeks and Romans of course.

I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)

he fustanella that the Albanians opps! I mean the Illyrians opps! I mean the Pelasgians gave them? Don't forget that Napolean was Albanian too!

Talk about nationalism.......

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

The current authority of Albanology Dr. Robert Elsie has written the following article, I'd like you to read it and comment on the fact that he notes that Michael Attaliates, the very first Byzantine to write about Albanians, also mentions Arvanites as a separate entity!!! (see paragraph 1 lines 5-7)
Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the according to you, same people, by using two different names ?
(see M.Attaliates History 1.18.19 for the entry Albanians and 1.297.21 for the entry Arvanites)

Elsie is not pointing out what you are claiming, because obviously for him Albanoi and Arbanitai is exactly the same thing,and however these names don't look different.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Elsie is not pointing out what you are claiming, because obviously for him Albanoi and Arbanitai is exactly the same thing,and however these names don't look different.

Does he really have to "point it out" ?
Do reread the sentence in question:

Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium

While this quite clear "and to the" needs no analysis, since you seem to disagree, why don't you present your responce to the question addressed towards Grace:

Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the, according to you, same people, by using two different names ?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Does he really have to "point it out" ?
Do reread the sentence in question:


While this quite clear "and to the" needs no analysis, since you seem to disagree, why don't you present your responce to the question addressed towards Grace:

Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the, according to you, same people, by using two different names ?

Because of the Gheg-Tosk division ,because,maybe both names were used at the time one from Greeks and the others from Latins, or just because he don't wanted to be ripetitive etc etc...

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Because of the Gheg-Tosk division ,because,maybe both names were used at the time one from Greeks and the others from Latins, or just because he don't wanted to be ripetitive etc etc...

Problems in your suggestion:
a) that to Attaliates like all non-speakers of the tongue, the dialects would seem the very same thing, especially since they are mutually intelligible as we know today..

b) the possibility of a Latin/Hellenic name issue being the solution is impossible simply because we aren't citing two different (as in 1 Roman, 1 Hellenic author) but the very same individual. A single author that uses no other form of Roman title in his entire text.

c) we aren't talking about some poem.. in which the verse would be a major issue, the man is recording history..
Anyway, do explain... why does he allegedly use 2 terms for the Albanians which are only mentioned twice in his entire "Histories" but only the term Bulgarians for the Bulgarians which he mentions 9 times just in book 1 ?!?
Your suggestion of him trying to avoid repetition simply doesn't make sense.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Problems in your suggestion:
a) that to Attaliates like all non-speakers of the tongue, the dialects would seem the very same thing, especially since they are mutually intelligible as we know today..

b) the possibility of a Latin/Hellenic name issue being the solution is impossible simply because we aren't citing two different (as in 1 Roman, 1 Hellenic author) but the very same individual. A single author that uses no other form of Roman title in his entire text.

c) we aren't talking about some poem.. in which the verse would be a major issue, the man is recording history..
Anyway, do explain... why does he allegedly use 2 terms for the Albanians which are only mentioned twice in his entire "Histories" but only the term Bulgarians for the Bulgarians which he mentions 9 times just in book 1 ?!?
Your suggestion of him trying to avoid repetition simply doesn't make sense.

I don't really understand why do you keep going with this. Obviously Alban and Arban is exactly the same thing. Even today half of the word call us Albanians, but we use the term Shqipetar, and our people in Italy and Greece call themselves Arberesh or Arberor.You call them Arvanitas and their Albanian language Arvanitka.Turks call us Arnaut a term borrowed from Greeks.So we have all this names for the same people ,today, and you are surprised that Attaliates was using two different ones in medieval times.
then you must remember that Arbanitai and Albanoi,were both Illyrian tribes, and more likely the same tribe.

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.

In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.

In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

[Andrew]

Arvanites and Albanians ...the eternal issue ...!!!

I already expressed my opinion and discussed it with Tiralb and Grace so I don't want to repeat my "correlation coeficient thesis" again. My point is the EV13 discrepancy between Albanians (>30%) and Arvanitophon regions of Greece (Attica,Boetia,northeastern Peloponnese) (<10%).

So If you ask me -so far- I see the Arvanites as people from the Konstantinople region who migrated to the montainous "fortresses" of Albania and Epeirus after the the Kiutsuk Kainartzi incident in Asia Minor (1071 AD) and after the Fall of Costantinople to the Franks in 1204 AD.

By time they abopted the Albanian language and during the last century of the Byzantine empire or the first centuries of the Ottoman one they have migrated southwards.

By "looking like Albanians" (that is Muslims) paid no taxes to the Sultan and that permitted them to make money and became "ship owners" of the Aegean islands like Ydra,Spetses etc.

Anyway ..I'm not expert on this issue and that is simply my opinion so far !!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I don't really understand why do you keep going with this. Obviously Alban and Arban is exactly the same thing. Even today half of the word call us Albanians, but we use the term Shqipetar, and our people in Italy and Greece call themselves Arberesh or Arberor.You call them Arvanitas and their Albanian language Arvanitka.Turks call us Arnaut a term borrowed from Greeks.So we have all this names for the same people ,today, and you are surprised that Attaliates was using two different ones in medieval times.
then you must remember that Arbanitai and Albanoi,were both Illyrian tribes, and more likely the same tribe.

What do you mean why I keep on going.. I'm seeking answers and I believe its more than evident.

All your above examples are insignificant, why? well simply because your examples of different denominations which you suggest are used to describe "your people" come from different sources, as you yourself said: the world, you, us, Turks, your minorities...etc. While I'm specifically talking about a single individual who in a single book, uses the term Albanians to describe the soldiers situated in Italy that participated in Maniakes' revolt against the empire (I've quoted R.Elsie's chosen translation more than once) and then just a couple of lines down, uses a different ethnonym, which you suggest is used to describe the same people.
As explained IF this difference appeared during the examination of lets say, 2 or 3 texts indifferent if they were written by different authors or not, I wouldn't raise a single question. BUT that is not the case.

[b]In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.

In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.

In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

Ahh, wiki..(cause thats where you got these from) propaganda wars always get the best of this site...

well Polybius makes no single reference to Arbanius nor Arbanitas as names of the inhabitants so it would be interesting to know where the author of this wiki article found this..


Now the problem that the authors of this wiki entry haven't noticed is that Pliny's Olbonenses (3.21) are too far North to have any connection to the later Albanopolis since he mentions that they belong to the jurisdiction of Scardona, (today Skradin located in Croatia)

Polybius' Arbona is also too far North to have any relation to Ptolemy's Albanopolis. The text (2.11) is refering to the islands of the Adriatic (the blockading of Issa) hence the reference to Rhizon (today known as Rizan which is situated in Montenegro) and Pharon (the Adriatic island known as Hvar).. one wouldn't go too far to suggest that his (Polybius') Arbona is the island of Arba mentioned by Pliny (John Bostock and Henry Thomas Riley in their notes suggest that Arba and Crexa were ancient Cherso)

So sorry, but I just don't see how these people/places are related to Albania.. if you'd like to explain, I'm all ears.