Foustanella

[Grace]

Originally Posted by gmellos

WHY are all of you fighting over a F'ING skirt!?????

cause you managed to turn a manly thing, worn by real men, into a feminized skirt Just kidding.

Anyway. If Greeks 2500 years ago something different than pants, you probably forgot it. FYI, check this:



(and I am sure we can find many other cultures that wore "skirts" 1000's of years ago or even later but it's hard to establish continuance. Also in ancient Egypt I have seen such "skirt" like dresses. Borrowing is perfectly fine, we all give and take, especially in the Balkans but don't get mad if Albanians tease you, odds favor us in the skirt department .)


My reading of the paper: Basically, Greeks had an identity crises with Neo-Hellenism, not sure what to adopt as Greek, probably because of the people from Europe saying you shoud be like this and like that.

From: "Spiridon Loues, the Modern Foustanéla, and the Symbolic Power of Pallikariá at the 1896 Olympic Games" by James P. Verinis (Muse)

"Novelists and social scientists alike have often inquired about
modern Greek “essence.” By doing so they have problematized the
formation of modern (national) Greek identity, drawing attention to
what has been referred to as Greece’s annual “crisis of legitimacy”
(Manesis in Faubion 1993).1 Artemis Leontis has written extensively on
this topic (1995:112): “Neohellenes, in contrast [to Western Europeans]
have from their modern beginnings remained self conscious in an
inherent disparity between themselves and their Hellenic selves, an
identity itself divided between its modern and ancient/traditional
elements. From their modern institutions, they have encountered the
heterotopia of Hellas as a daily challenge to their present day integrity
and purity of origins.”"

My reading: When he wore it in 1896, it wasn't seen as "Greek," but as barbarian. Since the fustanella-wearing klepts "won the war" and Loues won the race, fustanella earned it's place in Greek culture as 'Greek enough'.


Here a few more snipets:

"Only in certain instances then was the foustanéla allowed to be
glorified in such a way, and only after it had been allowed to be Greek,
as opposed to Bulgarian, Serbian, Turkish, Vlach or Albanian in the first
place.14 Loues ushered in such a sentiment at these first modern
Olympic Games in Athens. Beginning on 24 March 1896, the eve of
Orthodox Easter as well as the seventy-fifth anniversary of Greek
Independence according to the Julian calendar, this first modern
Olympiad was steeped in Durkheimian effervescence. On the fifth day
of the Games, the marathon, a national issue at this point, was to take
place. N. E. Politis (1996:87) describes the marathon as a question of
national philótimo. It was no surprise that, when a Greek did win the
race, there was an explosion of enthusiasm throughout the country."

"Thought originally to have been a southern Albanian outfit worn by men of the Tosk ethnicity and introduced into more Greek territories during the Ottoman occupation of previous centuries, the “clean petticoat” of the foustanéla ensemble was a term of reproach used by brigands well before laograf¤a (laographía, folklore) and disuse made it the national costume of Greece and consequently made light of variations based on region, time period, class or ethnicity."

You have to admit that these Greek dances and dresses that Chams and Labs happened to know as well are very similar.

Also, is Tsam-iko related to Cham?

YouTube - Greek dance. " title="YouTube - Greek dance." target="_blank">YouTube - Greek dance.

YouTube - Thessalia (Thessaly) Bracket " title="YouTube - Thessalia (Thessaly) Bracket" target="_blank">YouTube - Thessalia (Thessaly) Bracket

YouTube - Vlach Greek Dance " title="YouTube - Vlach Greek Dance" target="_blank">YouTube - Vlach Greek Dance

if someone has access to Muse you can read it in the entirety. He does not say it's Albanian, but hints at it, using the clever "Thought originally to have been" line.

[Grace]

Free article:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal...3.1verinis.pdf

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

(and I am sure we can find many other cultures that wore "skirts" 1000's of years ago or even later but it's hard to establish continuance.

The only problem is that the Scotts didn't wear a kilt 1000yrs ago.

My reading of the paper: Basically, Greeks had an identity crises with Neo-Hellenism, not sure what to adopt as Greek, probably because of the people from Europe saying you shoud be like this and like that.

No identity crisis my friend since as you've seen in our previous discussion related to Suli that they knew quite well who they were and who they descend from. The issue was purely "European". Westerners had the twisted belief that they would come to Hellas and after the pass of some 2000-2500yrs encounter Aristotle and Perikles as if a day hadn't passed hence why oh, so many travvelers and writters rushed to make comparisons based on appearance, which they compared with Homeric texts and speech which they compared with Homeric verse, even though they expected to hear the Erasmic while we use the Reuchlinian pronunciation.

My reading: When he wore it in 1896, it wasn't seen as "Greek," but as barbarian. Since the fustanella-wearing klepts "won the war" and Loues won the race, fustanella earned it's place in Greek culture as 'Greek enough'.

The fact that some "progressivists" that prefered the more "sophisticated" western look saw it as backwards or barbarian if you prefer the term, has little to do with the general view.
Also while you enter such a debate, its interesting to note that you seem to ignore that the fustanella was already established as the national costume during the reign of Otto (wanted to be buried wearing it.. died 1867) which is decades prior to this event.. so we conclude that your conclusion is totally flawed and that the accuracy of the author's beliefs (since they obviously aren't facts) can be questioned.

Also, is Tsam-iko related to Cham?

To Tsamouria, just like so many other dances its titled by its geographic or historic origins.. see: Ikariotikos, Kalymnikos, Karagouna, Kerkyraikos,..etc

if someone has access to Muse you can read it in the entirety. He does not say it's Albanian, but hints at it, using the clever "Thought originally to have been" line.

Thought by whom? and who can take an author seriously when as Akritas already indicated, he distorts the text of his cited sources ?

[chicagogeorge]

We know that many Albanians wore the fustanella, but in this book

A Greek is identified with wearing the fustanella, while the Albanians whore a different traditional style of dress.

[Orphic_Hymn]

An abstract from Akritan Ikonography on Byzantine Pottery
James A. Notopoulos
Hesperia, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1964), pp. 108-133


A comparison of the fustanella warriors on the Byzantine plates with the klephts of the Greek Revolution of 1821-30, shown in the primitive paintings of Makriyiannes, shows that we are dealing in both instances with a garment which is peculiarly suited to a fast, mobile guerrilla mountain type of warrior. Professor Keramopoullos' study of the fustanella throws light on our problem. This highland kilt, which in 1833 was legally made part of the dress of the Greek army and survives today in the royal palace guard at Athens, has a long history.

The fustanella evolved from the Roman toga, shortened and with pleats added, as may be seen in statues of Roman emperors who wear a breastplate (lorica) above and a tunic ending in pleated kilts reaching to the knees. The transference of this shortened toga to central Europe, where the climate is colder, was accompanied by an increase in the number of folds to provide greater warmth. The fustanella as worn by the Greek peasants until recent times and by the Vlachs, whom Wace studied, is descended from the Roman military dress. The kinship of the Vlachs with the Romans may also be seen in the close relation of the Vlach dialect to Latin. In fact these Vlachs are descendants of Roman armies who kept watch on the Roman frontiers.

Being a military dress, as seen in the statues of emperors, it became the Roman dress of regular and mercenary troops who came from the conquered regions of Greece and the East. Since the mountain regions are barren, their hardy peoples turned to military service for a livelihood, remaining twenty years in the legions, and twenty-five in the auxilia. Dressed in their kilts these mountain-bred troops of the Roman army lived as milites limitainei in the distant frontier provinces of the Roman empire. Among such contingents in the Byzantine armies were the akrites who, as the name shows, guarded the frontiers.

A study of Byzantine art which portrays the Byzantine armies shows two types of kilted warriors. One is associated with the imperial Byzantine armies, officers, or emperors who usually wear a military helmet. They are heavily armed with a breast- plate and are always pictured on horse. The other is worn by foot soldiers who are described in the tenth century Byzantine treatise, Περί Παραδρομής Πολέμου, as οί ταχείς ψιλοί, ταχείς τής πόσι, and it is to this contingent of Akritan troops that our plates belong. They are not clad in armor, nor in helmets. They wear a cap, a cloth doublet, and their pleated kilt is unmistakably different from that of the other class of warriors.
Their kilt resembles the klepht fustanella; it is longer, more flared, fluid, and ornamented with decorative stripes, horizontal or vertical. It is this difference in kilts that distinguishes the warriors in the Byzantine plates from the imperial forces depicted in other manifestations of Byzantine art. The kilts in our plates belong to the akrites, whose garb is required by their way of life and the guerrilla type of warfare described in the Byzantine military treatise...................



............This kind of warfare, also described in the Akritan ballads, called for a fast mobile guerrilla type of soldier. What kind of dress is suitable for this kind of warfare? Nothing better than the fustanella worn by the Akritan warriors in the Byzantine plates.......

[Grace]

[quote=chicagogeorge;90242]We know that many Albanians wore the fustanella, but in this book A Greek is identified with wearing the fustanella, while the Albanians whore a different traditional style of dress.[quote]


wow. You have really solved the issue! So all Greeks wore that and anyone who wore that must be a Greek? Talk to Lord Byron, he stayed in the region for a long while.
which one is the Albanian here George:

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

The only problem is that the Scotts didn't wear a kilt 1000yrs ago.

No identity crisis my friend since as you've seen in our previous discussion related to Suli that they knew quite well who they were and who they descend from.

for another day. But I don't expect nationalist Greeks to admit that their main heroes are anything but Greek blood. You do however have to wonder why so many identified them as Albanian (in blood that is.)

Or you can write to the authors: André Gerolymatos for example says the same about the fustanella and defintely for Suli, write to him and he'll explain it, he cannot be considered an Albanian nationalist at all:

"Eventually their military reputation rose to such heights that it invited emulation of method, and soon, as mentioned earlier, the Albanians even set the fashion for Balkan warriors with their kilts. Eventually many Ottoman notables also adopted the Albanian look as did the Greek Klephts and the armatoli."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg...um=1&ct=result
.
or transcribed http://www.albanian.com/community/vb...ad.php?t=19024

The SULIOTS were a branch of THE SOUTHERN ALBANIAN TOSKS. and until the 17 C, their territory belonged to an Ottoman timariot (a landholding lord) based in Ioannina.

The spectacle captured the imagination of painters, poets, historians, and especially nationalists, who glorified the suicide pact by embellishing the story with heroic Suliot women singing and dancing before they leaped into history.

The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared in into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event in the elementary school pageants...Every March 25, that day that also commemorates the outbreak of the Greek Revolution, children offer a performance in which the children dance around in a circle. At each turn, one child drops off to represent the Suliots who leaped off the precipice. The dance continuous until all children have left the stage. (ANDRE GYROLMATOS, The BALKAN WARS, page 137-141)
http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg...um=1&ct=result

The issue was purely "European". Westerners had the twisted belief that they would come to Hellas and after the pass of some 2000-2500yrs encounter Aristotle and Perikles as if a day hadn't passed hence why oh, so many travvelers and writters rushed to make comparisons based on appearance, which they compared with Homeric texts and speech which they compared with Homeric verse, even though they expected to hear the Erasmic while we use the Reuchlinian pronunciation.

Maybe so, but since you push the genetic and civilization continuance with the old Greece it's fair. Admit that something happened, we became balkanized and now we're trying to do our best, and that problem is solved. Oh, and that populations mixed a lot to the point you can't tell who is a real Greek and who isn't. Only religion really unites you.

The fact that some "progressivists" that prefered the more "sophisticated" western look saw it as backwards or barbarian if you prefer the term, has little to do with the general view. Also while you enter such a debate, its interesting to note that you seem to ignore that the fustanella was already established as the national costume during the reign of Otto (wanted to be buried wearing it.. died 1867) which is decades prior to this event.. so we conclude that your conclusion is totally flawed and that the accuracy of the author's beliefs (since they obviously aren't facts) can be questioned.

I knew that, thanks to the klepts. It made sense. IIRC, didn't we see a picture of Otto in an "Albanian Dress."

Can we agree that based on what the author said, my conclusion were correct?

To Tsamouria, just like so many other dances its titled by its geographic or historic origins.. see: Ikariotikos, Kalymnikos, Karagouna, Kerkyraikos,..etc

Makes sense. In Albania too. So Greeks and Albanians Chams shared the same culture, dress, songs (minus religion)

Thought by whom? and who can take an author seriously when as Akritas already indicated, he distorts the text of his cited sources ?

I didn't see Akritas, but he should publish a paper since this was peer reviewed and point out the distortions. Apparently he read around, Byron too probably and said that "people" think it came from Albanians. Can we agree that the author doesn't care much about it's origins (like we do?)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

for another day. But I don't expect nationalist Greeks to admit that their main heroes are anything but Greek blood. You do however have to wonder why so many identified them as Albanian (in blood that is.)

Or you can write to the authors: André Gerolymatos for example says the same about the fustanella and defintely for Suli, write to him and he'll explain it, he cannot be considered an Albanian nationalist at all:

Firstly, the stupidity you celebrate by throwing that nationalistic crap oh, so often is really getting annoying.
But while you throw the nationalistic label so easily, you fail to comprehend that the one acting like a nationalist is YOU!!!

Who is this A.Gerolymmatos and why is his belief, (cause thats exactly what he's expressing in his book and not some academic paper) to be considered more accurate than what the Suliotes have stated themselves and well known academic publications like Hysperia (The Journal of the American School of Classical Studies at Athens) have documented ?

Maybe so, but since you push the genetic and civilization continuance with the old Greece it's fair. Admit that something happened, we became balkanized and now we're trying to do our best, and that problem is solved. Oh, and that populations mixed a lot to the point you can't tell who is a real Greek and who isn't. Only religion really unites you.

While noone even mentioned them, but I see you're desparate to throw whatever you can...genetics didn't even exists during the time we're discussing and questioning cultural continuity is simply an indication of sheere ignorance.
But what do I have to admit, why do you need me to say that I (generally we Hellenes) were "balkanized" and what do you mean by this term and what is the actual problem other than your insistance on something that is evident.. why do you feel the desparate need to disassociate me from my ancestors.. would that feed your humbled ego ?

As for your belief of what unites us and what is significant for us, you're again totally wrong.

I knew that, thanks to the klepts. It made sense. IIRC, didn't we see a picture of Otto in an "Albanian Dress."

Since you allegedly knew it, why consider the text you cited which as proven has far too many holes in it, as accurate ?
But I can't help but note how you selectively read posts and nit-pick what suits you.. that my friend is the very posting guideline of a blind nationalist... When unable to counter an argument he simply avoids addressing it and continues to parrot his own version, no matter how twisted it may be.

What didn't you understand about the fustanella being depicted in Byzantine iconography since the 10th cent. AD?

Can we agree that based on what the author said, my conclusion were correct?

As long as you continue to reject what those you continue to claim relation have stated themselves, I see no way of any agreement taking place.

Makes sense. In Albania too. So Greeks and Albanians Chams shared the same culture, dress, songs (minus religion)

Not Hellenes in general, just those in Epirus which obviously came into contact with them.. A similar event is seen among Thracian and Bulgarian music and songs.. close proximity and social intermixing effects people's culture.

I didn't see Akritas, but he should publish a paper since this was peer reviewed and point out the distortions. Apparently he read around, Byron too probably and said that "people" think it came from Albanians. Can we agree that the author doesn't care much about it's origins (like we do?)

Sorry wrong topic.. couple of drinks do have such an effect..
His caring about the issue of not doesn't make his thoughts accurate now do they ?
We've already clarified that Otto not only didn't find the fustanella "dirty and barbaric" but that he literally adored it.. to such extent that he requested to be buried in it.. Now you honestly tell me(take the glasses of nationalism off prior to responding) if anyone can take an author that makes these kind of absurd claims seriously ?

[Grace]

I am done with this. As I said, I'll rely on scholars and with people that have no interest in promoting their own Balkan points of view. In this case, both are Greek, and very well respected scholars.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

I am done with this. As I said, I'll rely on scholars and with people that have no interest in promoting their own Balkan points of view. In this case, both are Greek, and very well respected scholars.

Translation:
I'm a hypernationalistic fool that can't take the damn blinkers of nationalism off long enough to see that academic papers like Hysperia and archaeologists like Paul Rehak can't simply be promoting the descent from Tonga and Tunic theory to humble inferiority complexed Albanians.. The very same inferiority complexed Albanians, who are so full of it they openly reject the very words of those who's memories they allegedly cherish, while openly jump at every chance they find to discredit their own words and spit on their memory..

It was nice talking to ya Grace.