ALBANIANS AND GREEKS (The Times)

[chicagogeorge]

and an interesting observation on the quality and purity of the Greek spoken in Epirus as compared to the rest of Greece in 1816

[Grace]

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.

http://www.southeasteurope.org/docum...minorities.pdf

George read this on minorities.

Actually, there are 3 thousand inhabitants in Himare, and only a very small
number belong to the Greek minority. Almost half the population of Himare has
moved to Greece, especially young people and children. The 8-year school of the
town had about 100 pupils in 1990, while presently there are only 20 pupils in it.
Lastly, it is worth being mentioned that, like in the other areas of the Greek
minority in Himare, too, the Greek government gives pensions to the elderly
people. Many people, who were interviewed by our team, confirmed that, owing to
pragmatic reasons, they have accepted such a financial contribution, though they
do not feel that they belong to the Greek minority.

Quick point: the real Greeks in Dropull are actually hard working and hospitable people. The phony ones, the Himariotes are the trouble maker$. While they speak Greek with an accent, their culture, musical instruments and all come from Laberia. Their ancestors who are now in Italy still speak Albanian. Google
Piana degli Albanesi
Ironically the Greek government cares about Himara and Dhermi. Geopolitical reasons? Plus, 80% of Greeks are in Greece now anyway. As Albania joins EU maybe they'll move back along with 200,000 Chams in Chameria (if Turkey gets in EU many Chams who got sent there might move back to Greece too)

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Grace

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.

http://www.southeasteurope.org/docum...minorities.pdf

George read this on minorities.
Quote:
<Actually, there are 3 thousand inhabitants in Himare, and only a very small
number belong to the Greek minority. Almost half the population of Himare has
moved to Greece, especially young people and children. The 8-year school of the town had about 100 pupils in 1990, while presently there are only 20 pupils in it.Lastly, it is worth being mentioned that, like in the other areas of the Greek minority in Himare, too, the Greek government gives pensions to the elderly people.Many people,who were interviewed by our team,confirmed that,owing to pragmatic reasons,they have accepted such a financial contribution,though they do not feel that they belong to the Greek minority>.

Quick point: the real Greeks in Dropull are actually hard working and hospitable people. The phony ones, the Himariotes are the trouble maker$. While they speak Greek with an accent, their culture, musical instruments and all come from Laberia. Their ancestors who are now in Italy still speak Albanian. Google
Piana degli Albanesi
Ironically the Greek government cares about Himara and Dhermi. Geopolitical reasons? Plus, 80% of Greeks are in Greece now anyway. As Albania joins EU maybe they'll move back along with 200,000 Chams in Chameria (if Turkey gets in EU many Chams who got sent there might move back to Greece too)

You quoted this text from the report “ON THE STATUS OF THE MINORITIES
IN THE REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA”.We read in the first page:<Under the direct auspices of the Albanian Helsinki Committee, from September
1999 to September 2000, an intensive work was carried out for the realization of the project “On the status of the minorities in the Republic of Albania”.This project was financed by the Finnish Foundation ‘KIOS’, “Finnish NGO Foundation for Human Rights”.The fact-finding teams for each mission consisted of three to five persons, among them members of the Albanian Helsinki Committee, journalists, university teachers, students, individuals from the above -mentioned minorities in Albania,etc.>
Why should we believe an Albanian report?What has Greece to gain by pensioning some Albanians in Himara?If it was true,they would be very stupid if they confessed that they pretend to be Greeks.
We read also in page 5 of the same report that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays.> and in page 6 <Remaining isolated by the Turkish Empire, especially in the 18-th and 19-th centuries, the people of Himara established close ties and developed an intensive trade with some Greek towns.It is mentioned that from this time, in addition to their mother tongue, the locals started to learn Greek language as well......During the communist regime (1945-1990), schools in Greek language were opened in all the areas where the
Greek minority lived, but such schools were never opened in Himare, on the
ground that the Greek minority did not exist there>.
I see a systematic Albanian atempt to deny or underestimate the Greek presence in Himara.This attempt starts with the claim that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays>.Off course,never existed there a town with the name Chaonia.Chaonia was named the region,after the Greek tribe of Chaones,but the town was called in ancient time Himaira,a Greek name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himar%C3%AB#Name

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Grace

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.

No that doesn't explain it. Do you mean to tell me that their were no Greek schools and no Greek church in Thessaloniki, Athens, Thessaly, the Peloponese, Istanbul where the Phanar is? The document clearly states that they spoke a Greek, that was more pure in Epirus than other parts of Greece including the seven islands, because there were fewer loan or foreign words from other languages;)

Here is another two sources which says the same exact thing. One from 1854 (during Ali Pasha's era) and the other from 1911.....

[chicagogeorge]

and since we are on the subject of Greeks and Albanians in Epirus during the late 19th and early 20th centuries......

[Grace]

yeah keep posting from phillo hellenes, I'm totally buying it. Every orthodox is Greek, as is Vasil Bollano. This guy even sounds so scholarly especially when he mentions that Bocari, Xhavela etc were Greek.

When I read literature from late 1800's it's sickening how Greece, Serbia and Montenegro started to devour Albanian lands, truly sickening. Thank God Serbia is paying for it, and MN with 600,000 people will soon.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by kostas68

Why should we believe an Albanian report?What has Greece to gain by pensioning some Albanians in Himara?If it was true,they would be very stupid if they confessed that they pretend to be Greeks.

If you get Greek $$ may mean more minorities in census = more Greek schools, hellenization; get it ready for "Vorio Epirus." Your church is very nice like that and that's why Albanians might never get along with Greeks. Greeks seem never satisfied. This issue of getting paid is real, more than one source mentions it.

Albanian TV showed how Bastardnollanos made Albanian names into Greek as well to the shock of the people named. Their songs, traditions etc are Albanians as well.

From Ardian Vehbiu, not an Alb nationalist, quite the opposite actually

Besides dialectology, the folkloric evidence as well speaks for quite definite ethnic-Albanian roots in the area: folk songs, and sung rituals (associated to weddings, death and burial ceremonies etc.) are clearly and typically Albanian: besides the text, their musical characteristics leave no room to doubt: theatrical polyphony (with different roles for different singers within the group), lack of musical or percussion instruments, pentatonic scales employed, etc. Musically, Himara goes with the rest of Laberia, and it is very hard to believe that Greek "autochtones" came to forget their own songs and traditions, abandon their musical instruments, and adopt a culture they have always looked upon as inferior. As a further argument for this might serve the simple fact that there are in Albania examples of Greek influence on folk culture, p.e. in the area of Permeti and, to a certain extent, in Myzeqe (tonalities, rhythms, and especially instruments employed).
http://members.aol.com/Plaku/himara.htm

We read also in page 5 of the same report that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays.> and in page 6 <Remaining isolated by the Turkish Empire, especially in the 18-th and 19-th centuries, the people of Himara established close ties and developed an intensive trade with some Greek towns.It is mentioned that from this time, in addition to their mother tongue, the locals started to learn Greek language as well......During the communist regime (1945-1990), schools in Greek language were opened in all the areas where the
Greek minority lived, but such schools were never opened in Himare, on the
ground that the Greek minority did not exist there>.
I see a systematic Albanian atempt to deny or underestimate the Greek presence in Himara.This attempt starts with the claim that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays>.Off course,never existed there a town with the name Chaonia.Chaonia was named the region,after the Greek tribe of Chaones,but the town was called in ancient time Himaira,a Greek name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himar%C3%AB#Name

who was what 2000 years ago is irrelevant, honestly, especially names. (Alexandria?) People move, come and go. We know Himariotes: their names as stradioti were Gjipal, Zef etc etc. Staunch Albanian catholics names from Mirdita and Kruja. Greece is using them to start trouble and Himariotes want the coastland, saying they own everything, mountains included. Most Greeks are in Dropull and only old people have remained and they have all the rights, non-Greeks lack in Greece (not to mention that we haven't expelled them ala-Cham)

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Grace

yeah keep posting from phillo hellenes, I'm totally buying it. Every orthodox is Greek, as is Vasil Bollano. This guy even sounds so scholarly especially when he mentions that Bocari, Xhavela etc were Greek.

So every independent westerner to you who reported the facts on the ground was a Philhellene to you

Botsaris and Tsavelas were Greeks as they considered themselves. Fact.

When I read literature from late 1800's it's sickening how Greece, Serbia and Montenegro started to devour Albanian lands, truly sickening. Thank God Serbia is paying for it, and MN with 600,000 people will soon.

When I read modern day Albanian nationalist websites that try to claim lands that historically never belonged to them (especially with regards to Epirus as every ancient source calls it Greek NEVER ALBANIAN OR ILLYRIAN) by making up absurd lineages to Pelasgians so that in some way they would have an older historical claim or what not makes me even more sick

this passage from Aristotle must really get under Albanian nationalist's skin How much more clear can the message be? Epirus is ancient Hellas even to Aristotle

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."

(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

and later on he says:

"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."

(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)