Souliotes

[Orphic_Hymn]

The last century or so, it has become a norm of every country attempting to claim parts of Hellinic history.
Be they Nazis based on a wild theory promoted by Nordicists, speaking of blonde-blue-eyed Hellines overrun by various tribes and having lost their original identity as allegedly proven by the physical appearance of 'modern' Hellines..
Afrocentrists claiming everything from Egypt to Athena and Socrates,
Bulgarians making claims on Thrace and Pelasgians.. our beloved Skopians claiming Alexander and Makedonia...etc

Among these wild theories, is that of the heroic Souliotes being Albanians...

This edition clears the whole issue...















































Really interesting :

- Aikaterine the Great sent a letter asking that the Hellines fight the Ottoman Empire from the inside... The Souliotes were the only ones that immediately responded...

- Ahmet Moufit, (great-grandson of Ali Pasha aka Tepelenis) mocks them because they considered themselves Hellines, makes claims that they are Albanians and for their 'delusion' his great-grandfather attacked them..


Since some may consider the article biased, I'll add a quite interesting quote..

"Here, secluded from the rest of the world, and before the Ottoman arms or the plundering Albanians invaded their peace, the family of the Bozzari ruled supreme, and Marco, tending his father's flocks, conceived those ideas of military glory which were afterwards developed in combating for the liberties of Greece.""

SOURCE:
Greece and the Levant; or, Diary of a summer's excursion in 1834: with epistolary supplements. By the Rev. Richard Burgess., Burgess, Richard, 1796-1881.
P.78

[romanos]

Interesting articles Orphic Hymn, well done the scanning

From my historical experience, i know that:

1. Albanians do not have rich written culture, something which made them vulnerable to influences.

2. Their first book is written in Latin influence, and as it is commonly accepted, the Pope seeked to influence the world using Latin dictionary. I'm speaking of the Catholic book called "Meshari" which is of minor historical or linguistic importance.


3. Also, wherever Souliotes settled afterwards they organised revolutionary movements against the occupation forces and had successes against the turkish military. The only country revolting at this time was Greece...

anyway, I find more possible the scenario that we (Greeks) are genetic relatives with Albanians (cousins) that politics of 20th century broke our bonds (at least with Southern Albanians).

Ofcourse, to sum up, Souliotes in total are a mixture of Greeks and Albanians irrespective of analogies (the post includes a survey saying that from 2.400 families at that time, 1.700 were Greek and 400 Albanian)



Many Souliotes became later ministers, generals, artists etc. A living part of Greece civilization that survives until today.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Well the term 'Turk-Albanian' is quite similar to 'Turk-Chams' which was used do denote all those that had adopted the conqueror's mentality and religion and plundered the lands of Hellas.
I recall there was also a couple of Albanian tribes, (Merdites or something like that) that had as a custom to have Turkish wives.So the term very well may have originated from them..

There are a couple of theories around their origins, while some connect them to propaganda, I find it really interesting that Anna Komena in her 'Alexiad', actually points to a non-native origin when saying :

"Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus."

So she actually separates them from the natives.. and by doing so allows us to believe that the theories may actually have a legitimate basis..

[Melbourne]

Forgive me if I am mistaken guys, however would it not be fair to say the Souliotes spoke Arvanitika?

I am not insinuating that they did not view themselves as Greek, however most linguists would agree Arvanitika is a Southern Albanian dialect, and the speakers of which in Southern Greece are descendants of these people whom settled in the 14th and 15th centuries.

I have heard the theories that it is a form of Ancient Greek, however I find this difficult to accept when I remember my late Grandmother in Korinthia speaking to Albanian workers with little difficulty.

On another note, would it not be correct to say the following Greeks were Arvanit speakers:

Boboulina
Karaiskakis
Botsari,
Kolokotroni
Kapodistrias

I am not that well versed in the subject, so I would like to know more...

[Orphic_Hymn]

Language doesn't actually designate ethnicity nor enthic conciousness. If it did, we would all be categorized as British or American for posting and speaking in the english language..
The arvanites while obviously had intermixed with the Albanians were obviously not Albanian. Their very name derives from the ancient district of 'Αρβωνος' mentioned in Polybius. The difference is even clearer when we look into Anna Komnenes' Alexiad. There we find her refering to the Arvanites and in a different passage to the Albanians by recording that they are :

"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus"

So while the term 'so-called' doesn't say much about them, the clear difference between them and the 'natives' does. This could be linked to a theory promoted by Slavic circles suggesting a non Balkan origin of the Albanians and an assimilation by the local population. (of that area not Hellas)

As for the language theory you mention, today when we say 'Hellinic language' we always seem to refer to the Attic dialect forgeting that there were several dialects among the Hellinic speakers. Noone can deny that Pontic or Cretan are Hellinic but for someone that totally ignores these dialects, communication may be an obvious problem..
So, while many consider it as a variation of the Albanian, there have been suggestions of direct connection to Hellinic and that this language was 'constructed' during some form of Albanization..
We can find several words in the Arvanitic that can be connected directly to Homeric, an exmaple is "xlek" (χλεκ) = pull .... that seems to be the Homeric 'elkw' (ελκω) in which we see the 'rough breathing' transformed into a 'x'.. or the word for head that is Kare (Καρέ) in Arvanitic and we all know of the Hellinic kara (Kάρα) commonly used when refering to saints.

It is also quite interesting to note that anthropologically speaking. (this notion has been supported by Theodoros Pitsios in his research published by the Hellinic Anthropologic Association) It is literally impossible for the emense Dinaric characteristics seen in Albanians to totally vanish in a time-span of some 600yrs.

[Hermes]

Hi there guys , i see its full of national pride here but i think you have to stay with feet on the ground. I have just some question that need a answer ,having present of what u say :Albanians came in Balcans in the 11th centutry...:
1)why many Homeric words are exactly in albanian by form and meaning..?
2)what does it mean in greek the name of godnees Afroditi having present her atributes (in albanian its 100% clear)?
3)why discendents of Bozzari/Bochari family abroad Greece claim with a great proud their albanian ancestry? (are they afraid or paid for that)
4)about the Etrusk people(in the antic north italy before romans) we know that the one who read and translate sth by them was empror Klaud II the Illyrian, and the same things are so easyly understood with the Albanian language today(many albanologs reading in albanian their leters saw that those describes the "pictures" or the tombs and so on...in a perfect way) have albanian been spoken in anticity?Having present their traditional culture , how could soldiers of 11th century, grown up everywhere in battles create a such traditional culture, strong enough to survive to the times?
5)Why antic greek has too many diferences from the new one (at schools , i have heard they are studied apart)
-Here in Italy many profesors of anticity are sure that latin comes from "albanian" the antic one better to say.Its strange but they are sure they have the proves.Now where is the problem...?why so much enemies in Balcans? Besides the Slavs(by ethnicity)all others have so many things in comon?is that a politic or just trendy?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Hi there guys , i see its full of national pride here but i think you have to stay with feet on the ground. I have just some question that need a answer ,having present of what u say :Albanians came in Balcans in the 11th centutry...:

Hi to you too..
Being proud of your history is nothing that someone can accuse you of. As for Albanians arriving in the Balkans at a later time, yes, it is a theory and like all theories (some of which you present in your questions) debatable, the question is.. do you have the answers to address the theory in question ??

1)why many Homeric words are exactly in albanian by form and meaning..?

Says who exactly.. is there a single scholar that has suggested this in an international symposium and hasn't been ridiculed??
The basic problem with these rediculous theories is that your first written text appears in the 1500 AD which is over two thousand years AFTER Homer and thus literally impossible to prove that these are original Albanian words and not some loan.
I'd suggest you centralize on proving the already questionable theory of your relation to Illyrians and then promote Pelasgic and Homeric claims.

2)what does it mean in greek the name of godnees Afroditi having present her atributes (in albanian its 100% clear)?

I've heard it all from you guys.. I know the Zeus = Zot, the Athena = E Thena, Thetis = Det, Odysseus = udhe.. Don't think for a minute that these claims are new to us..

You're probably refering to the manipulated version some of your compatriots are promoting to justify their claims on ancient Hellinic history (see above) in which they present 'Aferdita' as I recall when translated, having some relation to 'morning'. Why is it that you all conveniently neglect to look into mythology?

The word 'mythos' in Hellinic does not have the corrupt meaning of 'fary-tale' it does in english, but means 'speech' in contrast to 'para-mythi' which indicates 'next to speech' and hence the meaning of 'fairy-tale'. Had you looked into the myth which our ancestors considered true records of their past, you would have known that Aphrodite was said to have emerged by the shore of Cyprus. Interestingly enough, we now know that the island had literally emerged from the sea at some point in its history. The finds of fossilized corals and ophiolite on the Troodos mountain prove this to be a fact.

3)why discendents of Bozzari/Bochari family abroad Greece claim with a great proud their albanian ancestry? (are they afraid or paid for that)

Well no matter what they may or may not claim, the Botsari family and Markos considered themselves Hellenes which is why they actually faught for this country and not for the Albanians. Not really much more to say.. he's covered the whole issue with his actions.

4)about the Etrusk people(in the antic north italy before romans) we know that the one who read and translate sth by them was empror Klaud II the Illyrian, and the same things are so easyly understood with the Albanian language today(many albanologs reading in albanian their leters saw that those describes the "pictures" or the tombs and so on...in a perfect way) have albanian been spoken in anticity?Having present their traditional culture , how could soldiers of 11th century, grown up everywhere in battles create a such traditional culture, strong enough to survive to the times?

Sorry but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

5)Why antic greek has too many diferences from the new one (at schools , i have heard they are studied apart)

Do try to use caps for names.
Differences.. well the Hellinic language has existed and been spoken for over 3 milleniums. Its simple logic that through the process of such a timespan and foreign influx by Romans, Venetians, Ottomans..etc. the language would have some form of alterations. If you look at 'Old English' or even the 'Shakespearian' form of the language, you'd find that several readers may have a very difficult time comprehending the text, yet you try to compare it to ancient Hellinic which was spoken over 2000yrs ago?? Even so most of the average readers can comprehend the vast majority of 'ancient' texts, its the syntax and grammar that has been simplified and for that reason makes speech quite difficult.
In either way, its not an even match my friend.

-Here in Italy many profesors of anticity are sure that latin comes from "albanian" the antic one better to say.Its strange but they are sure they have the proves.Now where is the problem...?why so much enemies in Balcans? Besides the Slavs(by ethnicity)all others have so many things in comon?is that a politic or just trendy?

I can say one thing for sure. Whoever this Prof. is.. (if he is one to begin with) he should have his diploma (if he has one) taken from him immediately.

How about presenting some info on this.. like how did they come to this conclusion, present similar suffixes, prefixes, roots.. give us some form of proven beyond doubt ancient form of the Albanian language to begin with and then we'll discuss the possibility.

Oh, almost forgot, do provide info about these Prof., like names which Uni. they work in..etc.

[chicagogeorge]

Travels in Greece and Turkey: Comprehending a Particular Account of the ... - Page 394
Turkey - 1820 - 482 pages





and another account on the ethnicity of the Souliotes:


another document on the Souliotes:

The Asiatic Journaland Monthly Register for British India and Its Dependencies Page762




Sir Edward Thomasons Memoirs During Half a Century
by Edward Thomason - 1845
Page 259

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Well the term 'Turk-Albanian' is quite similar to 'Turk-Chams' which was used do denote all those that had adopted the conqueror's mentality and religion and plundered the lands of Hellas.
I recall there was also a couple of Albanian tribes, (Merdites or something like that) that had as a custom to have Turkish wives.So the term very well may have originated from them..

There are a couple of theories around their origins, while some connect them to propaganda, I find it really interesting that Anna Komena in her 'Alexiad', actually points to a non-native origin when saying :

"Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus."

So she actually separates them from the natives.. and by doing so allows us to believe that the theories may actually have a legitimate basis..

Non-Native: that's a lie. Albanian and Greek DNA are virtually identical (even if you don't like it

'Turk' meant Muslim. And Suliotes were Albanian. Now they might not to be identified but they are Albanians in blood and they were bandits as were many Albanians and Greeks. The fustanella is also Albanian.

never trust wikipedia but check the sources...from 1800's till now. Why would a Greek scholar and Dumas back then lie about them being Albanian?

"rather than capitulate to notorious Balkan warlord Ali Pasha, the Albanian Suliot women chose suicide...[and] The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared in into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event in the elementary school pageants"

"The Souliotes were Albanian speaking Christians who were chased by Ali Pasha at the turn of the 19th Century. They have become national heroic figures in Greek history as representations of Greek resistance to Turkish oppression because women and children committed suicide rather than being captured"

"Such were the people of Souli, Christian Albanians who were never fully subdued till 1803, when they were overcome by Ali of Joannina. This was a conquest of Christians by Mahometans ; but it was not a conquest of Christians by Turks. It was in truth a conquest of Albanians by Albanians. Ali was a cruel and faithless tyrant ; still he was not a Turk, but an Albanian ; he was a rebel against the Sultan, and he was so far an indirect friend of the Sultan's enemies."

I can't post links, sorry. No one is trying to steal them, they are now Greeks in nationality and mentality, but back then...

The biggest mistake (purposeful) is to try to divide them by saying they were "orthodox" fighting "Muslim" Albanians. That meant jack. Muslims and Christians fought for Ali Pasha and Souli ripped off Muslims and Christians. Even Ali Pasha wasn't a religious at all, just went with the flow. In the end he even offered to become orthodox

[chicagogeorge]

Nice of you to post, but also look over accounts from that time period which you can clearly see above.

Apparently first hand travelers like Miller, Thomason and other westerners alike form that time period knew the Souliotes as a mix of Greeks and Abanian Orthodox. Whether you like it or not.