It was a time when they were brothers.

[helios]

Something more than 100 years ago, the Albanian poet Naim Frasheri, a sage person, wrote a short poem in Katharevousa about Albanians and Greeks, considering them BROTHERS who speak different languages.
That was before the arising of absurd chauvinistic theories like Voreo-Epirus one.
He consideres Greeks and Albanians brothers with different religions.

Naim Frasheri.
"Σε τούτη την εποχή, σε τούτο τον αιώνα,
θέλετε τη φιλία μας, θέλετε την αγάπη;
Εμείς είμαστε Αλβανοί κι σείς Έλληνες είστε,
σεις την Ελλάδα έχετε κι εμείς την Αλβανία.
Σεις έχετε τη γλώσσα σας κι εμείς την εδική μας.
Σε τέτοια βάση δύναται να στεριωθεί η φιλία.
Μη βάζετε, αδέλφια, αυτί στα λόγια των εχθρών μας,
που προσπαθούνε πάντοτε να κάμουν τη θρησκεία
μέσο διχόνοιας μισαρής, μέσο ραδιοργίας,
όργανο του φανατισμού και της καταστροφής μας.
Θέλουν να μας χωρίσουνε για τα συμφέροντά τους".

"In this period, in this century
do you want our friendship, do you want love?
We are Albanians, you are Greeks,
you have Greece, we have Albania,
you have your language, we have our language.
In this way friendship will be cement.
Brothers, do not listen our enemies
who try to make religion
vehicle for hate
means of fanatism and our disaster.
They want to seperate us in theirs interest."


PS I have not made a search yet for the authenticity
of the poem, but if it is true, some people must take the right message.

[Grace]

But he was a "muslim" ! This vorio epir is something their right wing does to seem relevant. In the end, they do not dare to start a war with 7 million Albanians over it. Bulgaria, Turkey and even small Macedonia are dying for Greece to lose a war...and half of their land. If they want the "greek" people in Albanian they can have them, most are old anyway

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by helios

some people must take the right message.

That chauvinistic Greeks and chauvinistic Greeks alone are responsible for any bad realtions between Greece and Albania? Yeah message well taken.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by helios

in Katharevousa

It's not Katharevousa.

Originally Posted by Grace

In the end, they do not dare to start a war with 7 million Albanians over it. Bulgaria, Turkey and even small Macedonia are dying for Greece to lose a war...and half of their land.

LOL This is the standard wet dream of all ultra-nationalists in those countries. Problems with the plan are that Bulgaria has a 10% Turk problem, FYROM has a 30% Albanian problem,Turkey has a 20% Kurd problem (more intense now than ever with the establishment of Kurdistan in Iraq) and Serbia is waiting for an opportunity to come down like a ton of bricks on Kosovo.

Originally Posted by Grace

7 million Albanians

Originally Posted by Grace

If they want the "greek" people in Albanian they can have them, most are old anyway

The same is true, and even more so, in relation to the Chams and Arvanites.

[Tsontos]

I was about to say Draco, its about as far as katharevousa as you can get Wherever you got that from, helios, maybe this is a translation of the original into demotic?

[Bardas]

Originally Posted by Grace

But he was a "muslim" ! This vorio epir is something their right wing does to seem relevant. In the end, they do not dare to start a war with 7 million Albanians over it. Bulgaria, Turkey and even small Macedonia are dying for Greece to lose a war...and half of their land. If they want the "greek" people in Albanian they can have them, most are old anyway

7 million? lol. Isn't Albania's population only 3.5 million.

As for the Greek "right-wing" add "far" in front of it, and they remain a fringe group. LAOS barely scraped through the parliamentary threshold of 3%. So rest assured you have nothing to worry about if that is indeed your concern.
But Grace your problem is that your mind frame is like that of the skops, somewhere in the 1940's. Greece does not have any territorial claims on southern Albania and 200,000 Vorio Epirotoi have now made their homes in Greece.

And since you're turning this into a pissing contest, if there was going to be a war between Greece and Albania be sure we would win. This is not medieval but modern warfare. The Albanian armed forces remain a bayonet army. But since Greece's military doctrine is about fending off a Turkish invasion, it means we have the most modern armed forces in the region. Indeed our airforce and navy even have an edge over that of Turkey's; yourselves have a navy and airforce in name only. So don't be so confident that we will lose. You Albanians seems to have some kind of illusion of military invincibility without having done anything to prove it. The KLA was on the verge of defeat in 1999 until Nato intervened. And as for the UCK in northern fyrom they were fighting against a AoM that was just a bit more better armed.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Draco

It's not Katharevousa.

LOL This is the standard wet dream of all ultra-nationalists in those countries. Problems with the plan are that Bulgaria has a 10% Turk problem, FYROM has a 30% Albanian problem,Turkey has a 20% Kurd problem (more intense now than ever with the establishment of Kurdistan in Iraq) and Serbia is waiting for an opportunity to come down like a ton of bricks on Kosovo.



The same is true, and even more so, in relation to the Chams and Arvanites.

You forgot one crucial thing: while all have issues among each other, they all have issues with Greece. If a (regional) war breaks out, why would Bulgaria go against Turkey or FYROM when they can cooperate and split parts of the loser, Greece? Only Greece has doubled in size by taking land from others. You say it's fair, others do not.

The Albanians in FYROM can go either way with one phone call from Tirana or Prishtina. Serbia, is done. As soon as they start to bark again-and they will, their church is notorious for that--Kosova will double it's weapons and so will Croatia and the Bosniaks (the Muslims who know what happened last time.)

By then, they will be three professional armies and enough to keep Serbia in check, or split her forces. They got a few bloody noses and the next time, they might lose Vojvodina and Sanxhak as well. Without a partner, Serbs are losers. They only brag and dream big and have mortal enemies all around them.

The Albanians will not have F-35s, but they will have plenty of mortars and shoulder missiles, a cheap way to render any tank and cheap planes useless. Gun for gun, in a fair fight, I'll bet against Serbs anytime. They had the Yugoslav army and still got their asses kicked by Slovenia and Croatia.

Most importantly, Greece has all this land because the powers let them keep the occupied parts. No one, short of Albania starting Nazi-like ovens, will allow Greece to take 50% of the already small Albania, even if you succeed in temporarily occupying it. Today's Greece has lost a lot of the good will created by the people who used to live there 2500 years ago.

Turkey has problems, but then, they are 60 million strong and the Kurds are not going anywhere. Even if they rise, they will still be there and Turks can fight in both fronts. They are very nationalistic and reservists /local people can go there temporarily as well.

if the powers get involved, all bets are off, but I'd say that Europe and US will be in one side, and only Russia might join you /Serbia. China is too far and wants to control her part of the world, not Mediterranean. A war might actually give us an excuse to pull a Greece and expel all the "Greek collaborators." I know you would have no problems with that

In short, Greece has a lot to lose and not much to gain.

[Grace]

>> So don't be so confident that we will lose. You Albanians seems to have some kind of illusion of military invincibility without having done anything to prove it.

actually we don't and I agree on the army. However, my point was to show that a rational Greece will not attack Albania as hell will break lose.

Our army is improving though thanks to US /NATO, and the idea is not to withstand US or Russia OR invade other countries; it is to mount a decent defensive and wait till the partners come in. Or, maintain a guerrilla war for ages. Invading and holding countries requires US or China powers.

There is no way we would be able to have all your planes and ships, plus it makes no sense even if we could. We're a small country, and we got screwed about 100yrs ago, but we got used to it and can prosper there. It's better to have a decent enough army to give a sting to anyone but live in peace.

Albania for all our problems is actually making progress. You will see beautiful 3 story villas in every small town and the GDP is probably under-reported by some 50%. As more people get used to paying taxes, and corruption goes down, things will even get better and in 2-5 years it will be a great place for investments. A road to link to Kosova /Fyrom /Serbia will bring more tourists and trade and ... we're only 3.5 million in Albania. The 200+ mile coast is barely touched.

KLA was on the run, but then, it was not a fight, it was massacre where rape and total warfare were used. Tanks and helicopters vs a Ak-47 held by amatuers is not a fair fight. With a small modern army and weapons, Serbs will be kept at bay.

[Foti66]

Grace, you really are out there. You have some very funny thoughts though. Thanks for amusing the members.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

Only Greece has doubled in size by taking land from others.

...

Most importantly, Greece has all this land because the powers let them keep the occupied parts. No one, short of Albania starting Nazi-like ovens, will allow Greece to take 50% of the already small Albania, even if you succeed in temporarily occupying it. Today's Greece has lost a lot of the good will created by the people who used to live there 2500 years ago.

...

In short, Greece has a lot to lose and not much to gain.

Hahahahaha... I haven't read anything this funny for weeks. "Taking land from others"?? Do you consider "Chameria" (inhabited by no Albanians) as occupied territory? I thought you were a person one could have a reasonable debate with, obviously not! You belong in the same class of people who say that the 1913 Treaty of Bucharest (which set up the internationally recognized borders of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia/FYROM) violates international law. Take a hike sweetheart.

Originally Posted by Grace

You forgot one crucial thing: while all have issues among each other, they all have issues with Greece

I see much of an overestimation here, I mean who would get (western) Thrace? Bulgarians want it (because they once had it), but no Bulgarians live there today (the population is 30% Turk 70% Greek, so the Turks will probably want it too). You'd all probably exterminate each other trying to decide how to divide the spoils.