It was a time when they were brothers.

[kostas68]

Your geopolitical analysis is as naive and groundless as your territorial and nationalistic claims over Greece.

Originally Posted by Grace

You forgot one crucial thing: while all have issues among each other, they all have issues with Greece.

The same goes for you.You also forgot that 3 of your neighbours have issue with you:Greece,Serbia and FYROM.Turkey,except the Kurds, has also issues with almost all her neighbors:Greece,Bulgaria,Iraq,Syria,Armenia.
FYROM has issue with you and Greece,also Serbia and Bulgaria are waiting in the corner for its partition,if it collapses.

Originally Posted by Grace

If a (regional) war breaks out, why would Bulgaria go against Turkey

Because Bulgaria and Greece have to confront a common problem:The existence of a Muslim minority,which consist especially in Bulgaria the 10% of its population.

Originally Posted by Grace

or FYROM when they can cooperate and split parts of the loser, Greece?

Because it's more easier to split a large part of FYROM,whose inhabitants are of the same stock and many of them pro-Bulgarians(actually they are pure Bulgarians).

Originally Posted by Grace

Only Greece has doubled in size by taking land from others. You say it's fair, others do not.

Greece didn't take lands from others but liberated her own lands that belonged her ethnologically and historically.The <others> were the ones who grabed Greek soils through the centuries.

Originally Posted by Grace

Most importantly, Greece has all this land because the powers let them keep the occupied parts.

I don't know what lands exactly are you talking about,but what i know very well is that all these lands were liberated by rivers of blood and therefore it's better to stop your illusionary dreams that you'll see one day these lands stop being Greek.As for the permission of the great powers,we use to say in Greece this proverb: <In the hanged man's house don't talk about ropes>.

Originally Posted by Grace

In short, Greece has a lot to lose and not much to gain.

In short,not only Greece or all the Balkan countries but the whole of Europe has a lot to lose in such a case,if you understand what i imply.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

PS I have not made a search yet for the authenticity
of the poem, but if it is true, some people must take the right message.

Don't waste your time since as anyone can see its a forgery.

PS: why the selective quotations again, this time in your signature?

[Grace]

>>

Do you consider "Chameria" (inhabited by no Albanians) as occupied territory?

first of all this isn't even a fair comparison: If Turkey occupies 100% of Cyprus and throws all the Greeks off, what does that mean? Turks can say that "No Greeks live there" so Greece should shut up. And I did not use the word "occupied" but we know that the borders have changed and so has the ethnic makeup. Someone signed at the dotted line, so I don't consider it "occupied."

>>

Greece didn't take lands from others but liberated her own lands that belonged her ethnologically and historically.The <others> were the ones who grabed Greek soils through the centuries.

That is also for debate. How far back do you want go, 2500 years? Also, is this based on the language they spoke, genetics, culture and how strict will those standards be?
If Albanians says we're Illyrians and want our land back, should we keep it if somehow beat the rest living there for centuries? It isn't as clear or set in stone.

Lastly, what's the difference between Northern Epir and the Southern one if one is "Greek" and belongs in the new Greek state?

I'll answer the rest later,

[helios]

Originally Posted by Tsontos

I was about to say Draco, its about as far as katharevousa as you can get Wherever you got that from, helios, maybe this is a translation of the original into demotic?

I know but I don't have the original( sometime we just dont have access to the original),however for me the important part is its content.

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by Grace

You forgot one crucial thing: while all have issues among each other, they all have issues with Greece. If a (regional) war breaks out, why would Bulgaria go against Turkey or FYROM when they can cooperate and split parts of the loser, Greece? Only Greece has doubled in size by taking land from others. You say it's fair, others do not.

The Albanians in FYROM can go either way with one phone call from Tirana or Prishtina. Serbia, is done. As soon as they start to bark again-and they will, their church is notorious for that--Kosova will double it's weapons and so will Croatia and the Bosniaks (the Muslims who know what happened last time.)

By then, they will be three professional armies and enough to keep Serbia in check, or split her forces. They got a few bloody noses and the next time, they might lose Vojvodina and Sanxhak as well. Without a partner, Serbs are losers. They only brag and dream big and have mortal enemies all around them.

The Albanians will not have F-35s, but they will have plenty of mortars and shoulder missiles, a cheap way to render any tank and cheap planes useless. Gun for gun, in a fair fight, I'll bet against Serbs anytime. They had the Yugoslav army and still got their asses kicked by Slovenia and Croatia.

Most importantly, Greece has all this land because the powers let them keep the occupied parts. No one, short of Albania starting Nazi-like ovens, will allow Greece to take 50% of the already small Albania, even if you succeed in temporarily occupying it. Today's Greece has lost a lot of the good will created by the people who used to live there 2500 years ago.

Turkey has problems, but then, they are 60 million strong and the Kurds are not going anywhere. Even if they rise, they will still be there and Turks can fight in both fronts. They are very nationalistic and reservists /local people can go there temporarily as well.

if the powers get involved, all bets are off, but I'd say that Europe and US will be in one side, and only Russia might join you /Serbia. China is too far and wants to control her part of the world, not Mediterranean. A war might actually give us an excuse to pull a Greece and expel all the "Greek collaborators." I know you would have no problems with that

In short, Greece has a lot to lose and not much to gain.

This post is pretty divorced from reality dude.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

Naim Frasheri.
"Σε τούτη την εποχή, σε τούτο τον αιώνα,
θέλετε τη φιλία μας, θέλετε την αγάπη;
Εμείς είμαστε Αλβανοί κι σείς Έλληνες είστε,
σεις την Ελλάδα έχετε κι εμείς την Αλβανία.
Σεις έχετε τη γλώσσα σας κι εμείς την εδική μας.
Σε τέτοια βάση δύναται να στεριωθεί η φιλία.
Μη βάζετε, αδέλφια, αυτί στα λόγια των εχθρών μας,
που προσπαθούνε πάντοτε να κάμουν τη θρησκεία
μέσο διχόνοιας μισαρής, μέσο ραδιοργίας,
όργανο του φανατισμού και της καταστροφής μας.
Θέλουν να μας χωρίσουνε για τα συμφέροντά τους".

Did some looking into this.. as we already concluded, this isn't kathareuousa nor written by anyone that knows what it looks like.. its a corrupt presentation of what he wrote in his "Aληθής πόθος των Σκυπετάρων" (True Desire of the Albanians)..

As far as that goes.. didn't manage to find the whole text online, but only a couple of abstracts.. which allowed me to conclude that the poem is definitely not directed towards Hellenes alone nor did he consider us his "brothers" but spoke of forming a brotherhood:

"We want to live with all our neighbors, with Slavs and Hellenes in total harmony. In complete brotherhood, order and peace. But each should respect the other's rights."

Now the language part seems to be related to Frasheri's statement directed towards the Albanians while trying to unite them and begin the national renaissance, where he states: "you are all brothers by blood and language, don't separate yourselves by saying Giaour and Turk"
As for the you have yours, we have ours attempted beautification.. the following quote clarifies what his ideas were trully all about:

"If one should examine the virtuous, the just and the great, and the wisest of them, and Aristotle and Ptolemy and various others of the wisest, he'll learn that they belong to the brave race of the Shqiptar"

But such quotes or rediculous linguistic theories such as Epirus deriving from the Albanian "epërm" ( upper/superior), Achilles from "aqilehti" (light/fast) or Pyrrhus from "burrë" (man/strong) or even claims on Alexander (see his poem titled Pelesget-Shqipetaret) should be given little value.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

But such quotes or rediculous linguistic theories such as Epirus deriving from the Albanian "epërm" ( upper/superior), Achilles from "aqilehti" (light/fast) or Pyrrhus from "burrë" (man/strong) or even claims on Alexander (see Pelesget-Shqipetaret) should be given little value.

Orphic is there an ancient Greek name that they haven't yet claimed as theirs "etymologicaly" ????

About Pyrrhus (a perfect greek word meaning blond-redish) as "burre" .... are they sure that it's not purès:

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by helios

I know but I don't have the original( sometime we just dont have access to the original),however for me the important part is its content.

Περ τεν ζονε?It seems too Greek to me:περί την ζώνη=around the zone(=belt).

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Orphic is there an ancient Greek name that they haven't yet claimed as theirs "etymologicaly" ????

About Pyrrhus (a perfect greek word meaning blond-redish) as "burre" .... are they sure that it's not purès:

Well falsification is a norm among Albanian nationalist hot-heads.. Take our friend helios as an example, as if his endless distortions of texts in the Illyrian and Souliotes threads weren't enough, he now adds a nit-picked quote to his signature in some sick attempt to relate the worship of Zeus to "ancient" Albanians... The whole text says a different story..

helios' signature:




REALITY

"Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion" by Arthur Bernard Cook











So we find our dear friend helios intentionally omitting to quote the text which presents us with the FACT that firstly we're reading something related to the early 19th century and not antiquity and that while A.Soutzo records the purely Hellenic "Ηκουτε με Ζωνε θεε", (hear me God Zeus) C. Wachsmuth records the Albanian "per tene zone" which means "by the Lord, by God" and believes that their might be some connection. In either case linguistically related or not, it proves nothing about any form of relation of Zeus to the Albanians as he'd hope it would simply because there's a timegap of a couple of millenia.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Grace

first of all this isn't even a fair comparison: If Turkey occupies 100% of Cyprus and throws all the Greeks off, what does that mean? Turks can say that "No Greeks live there" so Greece should shut up. And I did not use the word "occupied" but we know that the borders have changed and so has the ethnic makeup. Someone signed at the dotted line, so I don't consider it "occupied."

The difference is that the UN has declared the Turkish occupation of Cyprus illegal. No one, not even Albania, has challenged Greece's rights relating to "Chameria". Only wide-eyed nationalists such as yourself do.

Originally Posted by Grace

That is also for debate. How far back do you want go, 2500 years? Also, is this based on the language they spoke, genetics, culture and how strict will those standards be?
If Albanians says we're Illyrians and want our land back, should we keep it if somehow beat the rest living there for centuries? It isn't as clear or set in stone.

We don't need to go back 2,500 years; 100 years will be sufficient.

Originally Posted by Grace

Lastly, what's the difference between Northern Epir and the Southern one if one is "Greek" and belongs in the new Greek state?

I don't understand what you are asking.