Grace on Epirus, Greeks, Albanians, Trojans, interwar period (Split thread)

[Grace]

Andrew,
leave Epirus alone, you already got more than you should have. Even IF it was "Greek" 2500 years ago, it isn't yours. We're suffering wars and misery from 1912 and 1945 borders, imagine if we go back 2500 years. Plus, just as you say you're Greek, an Epiriote people will come up and say it's mine, as suppose to a general Greek state.

Do you guys blame us for the Trojan war too or just the Suliote thing (the Albanian vs Albanian /power play thing)

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

Andrew,
leave Epirus alone, you already got more than you should have. Even IF it was "Greek" 2500 years ago, it isn't yours. We're suffering wars and misery from 1912 and 1945 borders, imagine if we go back 2500 years.

Grace , have I gave you the impression of a "polemophile" ?? I'm just nuts about history . Epeirus was the original homeland of all Greeks around 2000 BC , it was inhabited by Greek tribes in clasic & late antiquity and maintained hellenophon speaking population (of course mixed with an albanophon one) until it joined the Greek State.

What is now South Albania ..the lake Maliq ..there was a culture named Maliq III ..it is considered the very first settlement of the proto-Greeks in the Greek Soil with the Armenokhori culture in Pelagonia , back in 2000 BC...yet these territories are no more Greek Soil , no ?? But near Maliq wasn't later the great flowrishing Hellenophon city of Moschopolis till the late 1700s , when it was destroyed? Monastir in Pelagonia wasn't Hellenophon ?

Originally Posted by Grace

you already got more than you should have

Now if you want me to talk about meritocratic sharing (once I made clear that I'm not polemophil "expansionist" and I think heighly improbable any future border change ..so you can relax) I can only say that we didn't get EVERYTHING that we deserve : We didn't get Pelagonia , we didn't get North Epeirus (and there are Hellens there till now) and we didn't take the Micro Asian coast.

So instead of concentrating on Epeirus , something that was never Illyric , try to convince Serbs , Bosnians & Herzegovinians and Croats about the Great Illyria. At least in those lands there were Illyrians.

Originally Posted by Grace

Plus, just as you say you're Greek, an Epiriote people will come up and say it's mine, as suppose to a general Greek state.

As I told you about the Arvanites. If the Epeirotans one day wake up and wanna join Albania I will respect that... but until that day I know they feel Greeks , they speak Greek and they act like Greeks.

Originally Posted by Grace

Do you guys blame us for the Trojan war too or just the Suliote thing (the Albanian vs Albanian /power play thing)

I didn't realy understand what you wanted to say to me now ...can you elaborate more ??

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Grace , have I gave you the impression of a "polemophile" ?? I'm just nuts about history . Epeirus was the original homeland of all Greeks around 2000 BC , it was inhabited by Greek tribes in clasic & late antiquity and maintained hellenophon speaking population (of course mixed with an albanophon one) until it joined the Greek State.

What is now South Albania ..the lake Maliq ..there was a culture named Maliq III ..it is considered the very first settlement of the proto-Greeks in the Greek Soil with the Armenokhori culture in Pelagonia , back in 2000 BC...yet these territories are no more Greek Soil , no ?? But near Maliq wasn't later the great flowrishing Hellenophon city of Moschopolis till the late 1700s , when it was destroyed? Monastir in Pelagonia wasn't Hellenophon ?



Now if you want me to talk about meritocratic sharing (once I made clear that I'm not polemophil "expansionist" and I think heighly improbable any future border change ..so you can relax) I can only say that we didn't get EVERYTHING that we deserve : We didn't get Pelagonia , we didn't get North Epeirus (and there are Hellens there till now) and we didn't take the Micro Asian coast.

So instead of concentrating on Epeirus , something that was never Illyric , try to convince Serbs , Bosnians & Herzegovinians and Croats about the Great Illyria. At least in those lands there were Illyrians.



As I told you about the Arvanites. If the Epeirotans one day wake up and wanna join Albania I will respect that... but until that day I know they feel Greeks , they speak Greek and they act like Greeks.



I didn't realy understand what you wanted to say to me now ...can you elaborate more ??

.
On getting more: I meant you fought, got lucky and help /goodwill. Your territory just kept increasing. On joining, there are several Greek movements who are trying to do that. People are poor and problems are easy to create. Many suspect (IMO with good reason) the Greek bishop in trying to do just that: create the ground, and as soon as a war starts, just annex it.

A state can't just get a piece, so Albania will not even ask. If Serbs had treated K-Albs better, they'd never be able to split, and they had a history of being separate. Despite Serbs' is "our cradle," it really isn't. Serbs came in the 7th and to Kosovo in the 12-13th, long after they had created a state and church. They used the same thing for Macedonia (Lazar was crowned there) Montenegro, etc etc.

There was no north Greece or south Albania, people just kept mingling. The border as you can see are artificially set. They could have looked much differently.

added---
I read that on Souli Albanians are shown as the bad, rapists guys vs the Greek Christians who would rather die than submit to ...and so on, making Albanian enemies each time the story is read by a student. Ali was equally cruel and much harsher on Albanians (probably they deserved it more.) After taking over Souli, he took on the rest. It wasn't a Muslim vs. Christians, it was a power thing and ultimately Albanians vs Albanians. The Souiliotes extorted Muslims and Christians as well, and fought along Ali and against Ali as most fighters did back then.

Someone added the key sentence from Dumas on this debate on Wiki:

"Such were the people of Souli, Christian Albanians who were never fully subdued till 1803, when they were overcome by Ali of Joannina. This was a conquest of Christians by Mahometans ; but it was not a conquest of Christians by Turks. It was in truth a conquest of Albanians by Albanians. Ali was a cruel and faithless tyrant ; still he was not a Turk, but an Albanian ; he was a rebel against the Sultan, and he was so far an indirect friend of the Sultan's enemies.

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA1...ut=text#PPA177

[TirAlb]

What is now South Albania ..the lake Maliq ..there was a culture named Maliq III ..it is considered the very first settlement of the proto-Greeks in the Greek Soil with the Armenokhori culture in Pelagonia , back in 2000 BC...yet these territories are no more Greek Soil , no ?? But near Maliq wasn't later the great flowrishing Hellenophon city of Moschopolis till the late 1700s , when it was destroyed? Monastir in Pelagonia wasn't Hellenophon ?

Ill reply only to the part abut Voskopoja.
It was not an hellenophon city.Is like saying that Tetova is an english city because of its Universities in english language,or that Thesaloniki was an Israelian city.I said it before,and you have an entire article,in the general history forum.Albanian language was not welcomed from the Greek church,so Voskopoja as a city was a mixture of ethnicities(like all ottoman cities),Albanian,Greeks and Vlahs,and the language used in its schools and churchs was mostly Greek,but it doesn't make that city Greek.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Ill reply only to the part abut Voskopoja.
It was not an hellenophon city.Is like saying that Tetova is an english city because of its Universities in english language,or that Thesaloniki was an Israelian city.I said it before,and you have an entire article,in the general history forum.Albanian language was not welcomed from the Greek church,so Voskopoja as a city was a mixture of ethnicities(like all ottoman cities),Albanian,Greeks and Vlahs,and the language used in its schools and churchs was mostly Greek,but it doesn't make that city Greek.

Don't worry ..tht's why I didn't wrote "Greek city2 , but I wrote "Hellenophon city" .. I know that in every city of the Ottoman Empire you probably had all the ethnicities ...it was the villages tha twere more "monotonic".

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

There was no north Greece or south Albania, people just kept mingling. The border as you can see are artificially set. They could have looked much differently.

That the most certain thing ...In that quote I'll agree with you 100% both for ancient times and for Ottoman times.

In ancient times you have North Western Greek and Illyrian nomadic (aka migrating) tribes in constant movement (Summer up to the mountains and Winter down to the Valleys). As Strabo explains it pretty well [7.7.327] to say that among the NW Greek Speakers there were also "bilingual" Illyrians:

But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar, although, they add, some speak both languages

Except the language ...the way of life was the same. Nation ,Tribe , Subtribe
..nomadic way of life etc ..same for Illyrians,NW Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians etc

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Don't worry ..tht's why I didn't wrote "Greek city2 , but I wrote "Hellenophon city" .. I know that in every city of the Ottoman Empire you probably had all the ethnicities ...it was the villages tha twere more "monotonic".

I realised it,and i agree.