Mirande Vickers: The Cham Issue – Where to Now?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Tsontos

TirAlb you can't be serious about that picture.

I can't even work out which person in the pic you are claiming is Zervas. Don't you think if there actually was a picture of Zervas with the Nazis, the communists would be all over it?

The facts are that Zervas was one of the most successful resistance leaders and British allies in the whole of Europe. Albanians and Communists can live the same fantasy if they wish.

Sometimes TirAlb's posts give the appearance of a reasonable, moderate Albanian, then other posts of his are as useless as nationalist dreamers like helios. Doesnt do much for his credibility on other issues.

I never claimed to be moderate,but the problem is yours in this case,you(all of you) are not able to addmit the obvious.

[TirAlb]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=rel... " title="http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=rel..." target="_blank">http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=rel...

i can't understand what they are saying but maybe there's some interesting stuff from min 5.00 of this video.

[Tsontos]

We have talked about Zervas before and, as with this time, you are quite willing to just parrot the simplest Albanian narrative in a couple of posts without any sort of evidence, logic or conviction to argue the point. Zervas carried out the most significant resistance offensive against the Wehrmacht in all Europe at Georgopotamos Bridge. He was one of the most successful SOE commanders and beneficiary of British funds and arms.

The Communists claim Zervas collaborated in 1944, but the only documentation about collaboration from resistance groups was that between the Wehrmacht and Communists assuring mutual assistance against the "enemy", the enemy being Zervas!!!

[Tsontos]

The argeement betweent the communists and Germans referring to Zervas as the enemy:




We understand Zervas is the arch enemy in the Albanian narrative about the period and the cham mass suicide/ genocide/ holocaust, and he should be. He kicked the Albanian fascists and the Albanian fascists-turned-communists asses. The Greek communists hate the man for the same reason.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=related

i can't understand what they are saying but maybe there's some interesting stuff from min 5.00 of this video.

So the accusation is that the Germans approached him and the he alone knew of this agreement (see 4:59-5:05) since he didn't want to geopordize his position and the organization.

While the most interesting part is that he speaks of actions against nationalistic guerilla bands, a term which can only define EDES since ELAS/EAM were purely politically motivated, interested in the Soviet and not in the nation.. we should note that the "agreement" is documented Feb. 1944 (which is when Germany was already losing the war) and foresaw:

a) silent cease-fire untill further communication
b) exchange of partial info regarding EAM especially prior to military action
c) in case of advance of EAM, support from German troops
d) full discretion so that Zervas wouldn't geopadize British support

and that, this is no different than the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that kept commies out of the war prior to Barbarossa, actually their actions were anything but patriotic (see previous reference to Zachariadis' letter) nor to a similar agreement made with EAM (original can be posted, the photocopy is just clearer)



But in reality, this is no real suprize, there are similar theories circulated about Mihailovic who seemed to be in close contact with Zervas.. unfortunately for the Serbs, he failed and communism sent their country into that abyss called communism, since it prevailed.
In either case collaborator or not, what he did was purely in the interest of his country and not some sick political ideology that lead its followers into economic and cultural chaos.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.. from Chams, we're now getting into our Civil war and who collaborated and who didn't. The well known story of who's the greater patriot.


edit:
oh re Tsontos you're fast...

[Amarantos]

I do not know when precisely this tv trasmission was made but most probably judging by the image, during the 80's... when Papandreou came to power. This is something one has to consider.

[helios]

Originally Posted by Tsontos

We understand Zervas is the arch enemy in the Albanian narrative about the period and the cham mass suicide/ genocide/ holocaust, and he should be. He kicked the Albanian fascists and the Albanian fascists-turned-communists asses. The Greek communists hate the man for the same reason.

It's strange why Zervas didnt kick out of Greece these people (but only the muslim Cham Albanians):

Ioannis Rallis, The Prime Minister of Greece with {the enemies} of the Greece.


Ioannis Metaxas .

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by helios

It's strange why Zervas didnt kick out of Greece these people (but only the muslim Cham Albanians):

Ioannis Rallis, The Prime Minister of Greece with {the enemies} of the Greece.


Ioannis Metaxas

helios, your attempt to accuse and offend Greece at any cost is hitting some very very very low levels.

Learn that Ioannis Metaxas died on January 29, 1941 after having decided to fight the Italians, and that Ioannis Rallis died in prison on October 26, 1946, since after the liberation of Greece by the Axis powers he was sentenced to life imprisonment for collaborationism.

No need for further comments!

PS: you did not provide any info on the falsity you posted the other day on EON. I am certain that the post i'm responding to this time will have the same fortune, obviously for the same reasons you avoided to respond to the previous one.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Amarantos

Learn that Ioannis Metaxas died on January 29, 1941 after having decided to fight the Italians, and that Ioannis Rallis died in prison on October 26, 1946, since after the liberation of Greece by the Axis powers he was sentenced to life imprisonment for collaborationism.

Come on re Amarante.. you're asking far to much from our friend, what did you expect, that he'd actually know what he's talking about?
Thats a utopia re su.

[helios]

Originally Posted by Amarantos

helios, your attempt to accuse and offend Greece at any cost is hitting some very very very low levels.

Absolutely, NO.
You dont have the slightest idea what feelings I have towards the Greece.
Not at all.

I am attempting something very different, to accuse some people attempt(including you) to incriminate an entire ethnic population(Chams) as being nazi collaborators and justifing the genocide of pig-arse-hole face Zervas against these undefended population.