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Himara in 1854

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Old 05-20-2008, 05:28 PM
TirAlb TirAlb is offline
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Originally Posted by kostas68 View Post
Or simply Epirotan.How can you define clearly what belongs to whom in peoples who live mixed for centuries?It's the same as between the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia or Northern Thrace(today's South Bulgaria) and the Bulgarians of the same region.If you compare their songs,clothes,e.t.c you'll find remarkable simmilarity,especially in the songs.The music is almost at 90% the same.If you hear only the music and not the lyrics,you can't distinguish no way what's Greek and what's Bulgarian.(And they are wonderfull songs,both Greek and Bulgarian).

I have said it hundred of times,the music of Laberia,Himara included,is different and you can' find it elsewhere in the Balkans.
For the umpteenth time find me a greek or a bulgarian singing this way.
Also i think you don't have clear the fact that the himariot lirics are exclusively Albanian,why a Greek would marry or bury his dears singing in Albanian?!

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But the English traveler wrote that they spoke only Greek,if they spoke and Albanian he would mention it,wouldn't he?Or maybe you believe he had any reason to hide it?As he says about the majority of the surrounding populations that they spoke Albanian,he would say it for the Himariots if they spoke Albanian.Probably they spoke Albanian,but not as their native tongue,which was the Greek one and that's what surprise him and he depicts this contrast saying that <the Himariots speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians is Albanian>.
Come on,TirAlb,don't react like the Skopians!
He just said that they speak Greek.

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No,not for sure,but if these toponyms are used by a native people who speaks the same language and has the same national consciousness,isn't that an evidence?

Yeah,it's as Greek,as Albanian are Argyrokastro and Saranda I didn't claim all the toponyms in these region as Greek but a big percentage of them.
Don't start the toponyms game it doesn't prove nothing,if you want to know more about Himaritos go and see their surnames,that are mostly catholic Albanian.
As for Gjirokastra;Argjend means silver in Albanian as well,and that name is based on the legend of Argjiro the killed herself and her babys to escape,from turks,smth similar to what the Albanian suliote womans did.
But probably that name means just Gjinokastra (as natives still call it),or Gjins castle,from the name of Gjin Bue Shpata,the Albanian pre-ottoman lord of that city and most of epirus. Also the transformation of N in R is very common in the Albanian language

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And they just consider themselves Greeks,unlike their Albanian neighbors.OK,even it's better to speak to a wall than to you,as we say in my village,they spoke Greek as their native language,as it can be clearly concluded by the English traveler's narration and i accept that they might also speak Albanian,even it's nowhere mentioned by him,but not as their native tongue.
the english traveler is clearly not interested in the ethnicity fo the people,and i doubt he had an Albanian translator with him.


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Tiralb I must say one thing here ...you say that they learned Greek to comunicate with Corfu ....Don't forget that most Corfu guys (I prefer Kerkyrei) and most coastal Albanians knew and know Italian ..so there was a comersial language for both ...so since that there isn't realy a necessity to learn Greek (since Italian works fine for bisiness) , the fact that they speak greek must mean that they felt greeks.Now the Himariots had also top comunicate with the inner Albanians who didn't speak Italian , so they had to learn also Albanian ...What do you think ?
Good point,Himariots 2nd language was italian and not Greek,Greek became important only in the last 200-300 years when links with italy were defenitely cutted.
Ok lets say they learned Albanian,then why almost all of them can trace their roots out of Himara,in the neighboring Albanian regions(Bollano and Dhima family are among those),or even north Albania?Or why their Albanian is a perfect lab Albanian,Why do they have Albanian surnames?
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:43 PM
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Why do they have Albanian surnames?
Why do Greeks from Asia Minor have surnames ending in "-oglou" like the turkish ones ? (oglou means "son of" in turkish) ?

I must say that I'm not very prepared to himariots ..I only pointed out that since they knew Italian there was no necessity to speak Greek for commersial reasons ...that's all .
Know about Songs , Rituals and stuff like that..I can say that when two populations dwell the same land for long periods each makes cultural loans to the other , no ?

We ALL balkanians drink "Turkish" coffee , no ? we ALL (I think) have a "baxe" of vegetables and we ALL have "baklava" !!
The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Same thing for "bessa" and I believe that there are greek loans to Albanian no?
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:47 PM
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The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Actually it's a Slavic loanword, it appears in Bulgarian/Skopjian as blato (hmmm...).
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:57 PM
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Actually it's a Slavic loanword, it appears in Bulgarian/Skopjian as blato (hmmm...).
Thanks Draco ..I remember it was a loan to greek ..I messed up the "loaner"
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
Why do Greeks from Asia Minor have surnames ending in "-oglou" like the turkish ones ? (oglou means "son of" in turkish) ?

I must say that I'm not very prepared to himariots ..I only pointed out that since they knew Italian there was no necessity to speak Greek for commersial reasons ...that's all .
Know about Songs , Rituals and stuff like that..I can say that when two populations dwell the same land for long periods each makes cultural loans to the other , no ?

We ALL balkanians drink "Turkish" coffee , no ? we ALL (I think) have a "baxe" of vegetables and we ALL have "baklava" !!
The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Same thing for "bessa" and I believe that there are greek loans to Albanian no?
Of course we did,but Himariots are not the case.Even today just a minority of them declare themselves Greeks.And btw do you know that the greek state pays them 300euro per capita every month?

ps-balt in Albanian means mud.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:31 AM
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I have said it hundred of times,the music of Laberia,Himara included,is different and you can' find it elsewhere in the Balkans.
That doesn't make this music Albanian
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
For the umpteenth time find me a greek or a bulgarian singing this way.
Also i think you don't have clear the fact that the himariot lirics are exclusively Albanian,
Why should i believe you?
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
why a Greek would marry or bury his dears singing in Albanian?!
Why an Albanian would speak Greek to an English traveler?
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
He just said that they speak Greek.
Exactly.Not Albanian.
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
As for Gjirokastra;Argjend means silver in Albanian as well,and that name is based on the legend of Argjiro the killed herself and her babys to escape,from turks,smth similar to what the Albanian suliote womans did.
But probably that name means just Gjinokastra (as natives still call it),or Gjins castle,from the name of Gjin Bue Shpata,the Albanian pre-ottoman lord of that city and most of epirus. Also the transformation of N in R is very common in the Albanian language
Argyro=Greek female name,derives from the adjective argyros,argyri,argyro=silver
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
the english traveler is clearly not interested in the ethnicity fo the people,and i doubt he had an Albanian translator with him.
His guide was a native Himariot and spoke Greek,as he wrote.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:12 AM
TirAlb TirAlb is offline
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That doesn't make this music Albanian
It is Albanian.


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Why should i believe you?
Thats your problem

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Why an Albanian would speak Greek to an English traveler?
Because the english traveler obviously can speak only Greek.

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Exactly.Not Albanian.
He also said the the majority speak Albanian.


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Argyro=Greek female name,derives from the adjective argyros,argyri,argyro=silver
I said it too,Argjiro=Albanian female name,Argjend-silver.That name might be originaly Greek but during medievalism was also Albanian.But as i said to me the other explanation is much more believeable.

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His guide was a native Himariot and spoke Greek,as he wrote.
I speak Italian and some English what am I?
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:43 AM
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It is Albanian.
And what's this?You said only the Albanians have polyphonic songs.
Look the 6th,7th and 8th video clips.Poluphonic songs from Himara and Dovriani.
http://www.northepirus.com/forum/vie...php?f=98&t=163
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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
Because the english traveler obviously can speak only Greek.
He spoke Greek because he was Greek,as the English traveller says:

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Originally Posted by TirAlb View Post
He also said the the majority speak Albanian.
The majority of their neighbors,not the Himariots themselves.
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Αυτός τε γαρ Έλλην ειμί γένος τωρχαίον.
I am myself a Greek by ancient descend.
Alexander I of Macedonia,in Herodotos' book Kalliopi,IX,45.

You can fool all of the people some of the time
You can fool some of the people all of the time
But you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:36 AM
TirAlb TirAlb is offline
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And what's this?You said only the Albanians have polyphonic songs.
Look the 6th,7th and 8th video clips.Poluphonic songs from Himara and Dovriani.
http://www.northepirus.com/forum/vie...php?f=98&t=163
Thats ugly and is the proof of what the power of money can do.Do you really think that this is the first time i see those videos.These are post 90s songs,you pay them,they make songs for youm,thats all.

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He spoke Greek because he was Greek,as the English traveller says:
So in Albania there are only Albanian Muslims,Greeks and Latins?Eh kostas things are more clear now,thanks for doing that for me.

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The majority of their neighbors,not the Himariots themselves.
Is not what i understood,he is traveling through Albania btw.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:12 PM
TirAlb TirAlb is offline
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ON ETHNIC LEGACY IN HIMARA
The situation we have today in Himara (and Dhermi) is the following: an almost completely bilingual community, Albanian and Greek. It is a community that has always thought of itself as something special, different, distinguished from the rest; a community that has been well aware of, and even fully accepted its isolation, by trying to turn it into a weapon for survival.
A political problem

Of the two languages and cultures, the Greek one seems to enjoy, currently, an indisputable prestige: these people live their "Albanian-ness" as a kind of regretful fatality, and their "Grecity" as an almost sacred project. If asked, they would admit they are Greek, because they feel Greek, and it is difficult to object to such an argument (for it hardly is an argument). And still, it is not possible to consider the matter as settled, and include Bregu in the area of the Greek minority in Albania, as most zealous Greek and Vorio-Epirote ideologues claim. The question is not as innocent as it might seem at a first glance; there are people, in Albania, who have to find, everyday, an answer to the following "trivial" questions: should the Albanian state give the Bregu inhabitants an official status of minority? Authorize Greek foundations to open and finance elementary and/or Greek high schools in Himara? Permit that liturgical services be routinely celebrated in Greek, as it seems to be the case? Help children be taught Greek in the churches, as Alibali remarks?

My point

The hellenisation of Himara doesn't have a clear beginning in time. Of course, to speak of hellenisation means to imply that the area was, at least in some remote past, not Greek but Albanian, and this is precisely what the supporters of Himara's Grecity would immediately deny. My point is, however, that much of the Greek culture, language, and identity that is found today in the area has been recently imported from Greece, by people trying to acquire a sharp, distinctive identity of their own. Their efforts to maintain this alleged Grecity even under the most severe cultural and linguistic oppression exerted by the communist regime cannot pass, however, as a proof of what their Greek-supporter ideologues claim.

What linguistics has to say

The Albanian dialect of Bregu, spoken in Himara as well, presents some quite archaic properties, which let one think that it has been there at least since the 3rd - 5th centuries A.D. (before the first contacts between Albanians and Slavs). On the other hand, it unsurprisingly is part of the dialectal continuum of "laberishte", i.e., is linguistically related to what was (and is) spoken in the immediate hinterland, which suggests an uninterrupted flow of Albanian-speaking elements from hinterland to Himara (and vice versa). Those centers that, mainly because of their different geography, do not present the same bilinguism and ethnic alienation (Vuno and Qeparo first of all, but also Pilur and Kudhes, to a certain degree), speak the very same sub-dialect of Laberishte. Of course, this might serve as an argument for those who claim that the Albanian in Himara is due to immigration from the Albanian-speaking hinterland, though it is difficult to maintain such a speculative position.

The folkloric evidence

Besides dialectology, the folkloric evidence as well speaks for quite definite ethnic-Albanian roots in the area: folk songs, and sung rituals (associated to weddings, death and burial ceremonies etc.) are clearly and typically Albanian: besides the text, their musical characteristics leave no room to doubt: theatrical polyphony (with different roles for different singers within the group), lack of musical or percussion instruments, pentatonic scales employed, etc. Musically, Himara goes with the rest of Laberia, and it is very hard to believe that Greek "autochtones" came to forget their own songs and traditions, abandon their musical instruments, and adopt a culture they have always looked upon as inferior. As a further argument for this might serve the simple fact that there are in Albania examples of Greek influence on folk culture, p.e. in the area of Permeti and, to a certain extent, in Myzeqe (tonalities, rhythms, and especially instruments employed).

If there is a language without a related folklore, one might be inclined to think of a sheer cultural assimilation having taken place, due to superiority and prestige, and also because of a need for acquiring a differential identity. As a matter of fact, Greek and Albanian in Himara seem to be two uncommunicating citadels, rather than two coexisting systems of communication. It is true that I have not heard of any serious, systemic research on the Greek dialect spoken in the area, but reliable experts have told me that it is very similar to the Greek dialect of Corfu, and this seems to be a quite reasonable observation, given the uninterrupted contacts and inter-relations between the two coasts. On the other hand, there is no evident proof for the Greek influencing, phonetically or grammatically, the Albanian sub-dialect of the area. Of course, there are a lot of Greek lexical loans, but this is understandable, and can be easily explained by centuries of contact, and commercial relations.

A history between empires

What does history have to say about this question? As an inhabited center, Himara is certainly very old, and, because of its geographical position, there is no doubt that Greek settlers have lived there since the early antiquity -- as they have in other shores throughout the Mediterranean. This cannot be used, however, as an argument for asserting Himara's modern Grecity, for we know the nature of these Greek settlements, the very essence of which lay in a symbiotic balance between sea-people (Greek) and land-people (non-Greek).

Then, in the early Middle Ages, the ethnic tableau in the Balkans grew somehow confused, and the Greek presence, though preserving its relevant connotations of authority, power, and prestige, got diluted in the multi-ethnic mass, tending to become symbolic. Between the 14th and 16th centuries, however, Himara appears as an Albanian, not Greek outpost. When Scanderbeg fights against the Turks, the Himariotes are by his side, to support him and his family; they even send armies to help. After Scanderbeg's death, they get involved in armed resurrections against the Ottoman rule, invoking the name, the memory, and the glory of the hero of Kruja. There is reason, and perhaps evidence, to believe that some of the Himariotes, to escape from the Ottoman plague, fled to southern Italy (Molise). Their alleged descendants, today, speak a form of Albanian, not Greek. On the other hand, some authors do not exclude a wave of refugees, from North Albania, to Himara, after the fall of Kruja. The hypothesis seems to be somehow confirmed by patronymic legends circulating in the area: according to these legends, the Bregu dwellers originate from Kruja, or Mirdita. Whether such an intra-Albanian immigration has really taken place in the past is highly questionable, in so far as linguistics and history have not been able to come forward with tangible proofs. It is true, on the other hand, that only few studies have been dedicated to the problem. Nevertheless, in spite of what might have happened with this hypothetical wave of Northerners, Himara has maintained its uninterrupted historical continuity.

It is well known that the Turk administration conceded them some kind of fiscal autonomy, as well as other extraordinary rights. In any case, Himara made a name in the Europe of the 16th-18th centuries, and certainly not as a simple Greek offshoot. It gave excellent soldiers to the so-called "Real-Macedonian" regiment serving the Kings of Naples. I personally have seen the files of these soldiers retrieved from archives in Naples; it is hard to tell if these men were Orthodox Greek or Orthodox Albanian (how would you classify, e.g., Spiro Milo?). Curiously enough, there are some Catholic Albanians among them too (with names like Zef, Pal, Pjeter, Gjoke, Gjin, etc.), though it is unclear whether these soldiers of fortune came directly from the Gheg territories, or rather from an (improbable) Catholic enclave in the Bregu area.

Painful definitions

So let us get back again to our initial question: to whom does Himara belong? Is it Albanian or Greek? There is no simple answer to this, apparently simple question. The idea of the State-Nation is an offspring of the Western European romanticism, who later spread into the East. Dozens of bloody wars have been fought so that some countries could claim that Sate and Nation, within their territories, perfectly coincided. Obviously, the notion of ethnic minority is a by-product of this political idea and/or doctrine of the State-Nation, which is in no way perfect, nor perfectly reasonable, but at least reflects, currently, a political reality.

From this standpoint, Himara represents a curious anachronism, as a present memory from epochs when the Balkan peninsula was part of multi-ethnic empires, and nationalities were more choices and necessities, and had to harshly compete with religion(s) as well. The Greek State, who was the first to challenge the Ottoman imperial rule with the romantic, nationalistic ideal of the nation, inherited from this imperial rule a very confuse notion about the relationship between nationality and religion. The old, medieval Ottoman distinction between "Turks" (Muslims) and "Infidels" (Christians), survived under the new shape of "Greek" (Orthodox) versus "Infidels (Muslims, quite often, Albanian Muslims).

On the other hand, the principle of contiguous territoriality cannot be applied to the Greek reality, especially as the past is concerned. The Greek civilization obviously expanded through the sea, and many a Greek scholar might be tempted to look for contiguity on the sea, and not on the land.

Centers and peripheries

There have been cities, in the Balkans, which are difficult to define from an ethnic standpoint: Ioannina, Sarajevo, Manastir, Voskopoja, Istanbul etc. Whom did they belong to? Of course, to no one in particular; like monads, these cities reflected the ethnic chaos in the Balkans, and every other definition risks to promote one's rights, by offending the other parts. Their modern assignment to this or that State is to be thought of as rather arbitrary, because these cities, who flourished under the Turk empire, were an essential part of the Balkans center, thus being multi-national by definition.

Himara is hardly a member of this group. Unlike them, Himara belong to the periphery of the peninsula, as a relic of an epoch that is even older than the Ottoman empire: Byzance, in spite of its Greek core, didn't assign any particular citizenship to those who lived under its rule. It was something more than a simple multi-national empire: it was a trans-national empire, which found its reasons for existing in the glorious (partly mythic) past. The Greek language and culture, used within the empire, were no signs of its national identity; they represented a necessary unifying myth. Therefore, the cultural structure of Himara still resembles a Byzantine model. People feel Greek, because there is no Byzance any more, not because they are Greek.

An explanation

Isolated, economically and culturally, from the rest of Albania, and too small to pretend creating a separate identity of their own, the Himara community found in Greece a kind of virtual ethnic authority. This authority sooner or later would turn into a source of reassuring identity. In a certain way, adopting Greek as a means of communication, and inventing the myth of their being Greek since the very origins, the Himariotes were looking forward to a social promotion. A community of gifted and energetic people, with few natural resources, but plenty of human ones, opened to the world because of the sea, but closed to it because of the mountains behind (and the mountains of Tirana's indifference), Himara was somehow doomed to perennially being on the edge between two cultural dimensions: the Greek sea and the Albanian land. By perceiving itself as an island, Himara could thus easily claim to be admitted into that infinite archipelago of the Greek world, in which getting together often means having to cover a certain distance by boat, and the only consolation for the melancholy of being an island, is the certainty of being touched by a friendly sea. This cultural module, adopted out of necessity, alienated Himara from the Albanian land long before its inhabitants became aware of their alleged "Grecity". People full of pride and dignity, conscious of a glorious past, and strong of a cultural identity, they would never resign to the fate to which Himara was abandoned, both by Zogu, and Enver Hoxha.

Responsibilities

Himara's deliberate choice to be part of a minority isn't due at all to religious motives, for the Albanian Orthodox church in the south is in good health, and, however, under no Muslim pressure or persecution. It is a choice dictated by great distress, and it should sound as an alarm bell to authorities in Tirana. If the Himariotes want to be Greek, no democratic state should virtually deny them the right to feel so, and deprive them of what they think they need in order to cultivate their cultural identity. If this recognition of their rights won't, and can't happen today, the reason for it is the Hellenic dream of hegemony in southern Albania, a region that some segments of Greek nationalism still consider as a dismembered part of their "glorious" nation. The Greek policy with their minorities, which has hardly been democratic and fair, is the real obstacle in the way of reaching a political understanding of the Himara issue. The truth is that all Albanian governments, in spite of their commitment to good will and respect for human rights, will be tempted to reciprocate, especially with this kind of minorities.

With this, I do not want to say that Himara's wish for Grecity is an immediate result of the well-known Hellenic cultural imperialism and wish for expansion. Having had a chance to know these people, and live among them for some time, I would say that their idea of ethnic identity is genuine, though the Greek myth staying behind this idea is totally false and misguiding.
The author is Ardian Vebiu,a historian often quoted in this forum,and he is not exactly a nationalist Albanian.
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