Epiroticum in latin means Albanian language (split thread)

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Draco

There is no manipulation now. The Arvanites themselves are the largest propagators of Hellenization. As for 1821, I doubt it; they were subjected to persecution by Muslim forces. They detested everything Islamic.

I don't think their story is simple as you try to portray it.

What do you mean a large scale? A larger proportion of Albania has been under Greek influence than of Greece under Albanian influence.

We are not talking about albania and greece as we know them today,but about a portion ol land that goes from Vlora to Arta,and even souther,and the border between our countries is not exactly in the middle.And im not talking about influence because it was just Turkish muslim or orthodox Greek,but about the ethnicity of the people living those lands.We know that Epirus was a mixed region,we know that there were greeks in our part of epirus and they are still there,otherwise Albanians in the greek part magically disappeared in the last century.Its not necessary to be good at figures to reach the conclusion.

[Hellas7]

You know the numbers are there... do you guys know how many Arvanites there were in the early 1800's? I do. Look it up the numbers are there. If you use simple growth %, and the fact that they intermarried with Greeks, the numbers today are small compared to the fact there are 10 million + Greeks. Thats if you don't consider the Tosks to already have Greek blood in them from the beginning (which I do).

Seeing as there are only 3 million or so Albanians in Albania, the percentages of Greek blood in Albania and "Albanian" blood in Greece would be much closer than you think, tiralb.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

We are not talking about albania and greece as we know them today,but about a portion ol land that goes from Vlora to Arta,and even souther,and the border between our countries is not exactly in the middle.And im not talking about influence because it was just Turkish muslim or orthodox Greek,but about the ethnicity of the people living those lands.We know that Epirus was a mixed region,we know that there were greeks in our part of epirus and they are still there,otherwise Albanians in the greek part magically disappeared in the last century.Its not necessary to be good at figures to reach the conclusion.

Precisely, Epirus was ethnically mixed and the north part of Epirus is half of Albania. The Orthodox ethnicities were probably intermarrying freely, so I think it'll be pretty hard to find Orthodox Albanians without at least some Greek or Vlach (or both) ancestry. As for the Muslim Albanians, I can't be sure. Since I don't consider Janissaries or other Muslim Greeks of the time (such as the Tourkoyianniotes of Ioannina or the Vallaades) as proper Greeks, I see no point in speculating the extent of the impact that they may or may not have had on Muslim Tosks.

[Flipper]

TirAlb...In the last decade DNA analysis is done in many nations. The analysis made on Greeks never mention Albanian heritage. How do you explain this? The main body of the chromosomes trace their roots in people who came from anatolia during neolithic age. In the study below, even Turk scientists (that could be considered biased against the Greeks as people would think) participated.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...9.2007.00414.x

Obviously we all have something from each other in the Balkans, but the results of tests do not see any remarkable results considering Balkanoids but rather people like Armenians, Phrygians, Luwians and other mediteranean people.

How can people of Anatolian descend be that related to people of Dinaric descent as you believe?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Flipper

TirAlb...In the last decade DNA analysis is done in many nations. The analysis made on Greeks never mention Albanian heritage. How do you explain this? The main body of the chromosomes trace their roots in people who came from anatolia during neolithic age. In the study below, even Turk scientists (that could be considered biased against the Greeks as people would think) participated.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...9.2007.00414.x

Obviously we all have something from each other in the Balkans, but the results of tests do not see any remarkable results considering Balkanoids but rather people like Armenians, Phrygians, Luwians and other mediteranean people.

How can people of Anatolian descend be that related to people of Dinaric descent as you believe?

Flipper,if im not wrong,that study was concentrated only in certain areas.And this is a quote from the article.

An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia.

And btw how many Greeks came from Turkey,after the population exchange?Maybe you should start searching from there those mediterranian Anatolian roots.When i said Greeks mixed with Albanians i ment only certain regions like epir for example.

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Kostas theres no need to deny everything,during medieval times Albania and Epirote was pratically the same thing.

Theres no doubt that Epirote did mean Albanian in certain sources, afterall it was one of the two main languages spoken in the region. To say it meant that exclusively is incorrect though. Also remember that in the 16,17,18,19th century, most of the time Illyrian and South Slav meant the same thing.

Also food for thought.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

When i said Greeks mixed with Albanians i ment only certain regions like epir for example.

I was wondering mate ..
Are we talking about proper mixing among Greeks and Albanians in North Epirus
or cultural Hellenization of Albanians contemporarly with cultural Albanization of Greeks. I'm asking cause I'm curius on what realy happened there ??

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Flipper,if im not wrong,that study was concentrated only in certain areas.And this is a quote from the article.

Basically, it covered Thessaly, Macedonia and Peloponisus.

As for the quote, here is a more detailed one from the Aristotelean University press release.

The Y-Chomosome results of the Cretan population showed that it is grouped together with the people of Anatolia. The samples of the Greek mainland are partialy grouped with the palaiobalkanic cultures. This cocludes that the neolithic people of Crete came from Anatolia. Ofcourse the other genetic markers of the Greek mainland show that a part of those neolithic people came from Anatolia as well.

Palaiobalkanic refers to the neolithic Vinca culture of Thrace that can be compared to the Dimini cultures of Greece. That is in other words not Albanian/Illyrian etc which belongs to the Halstaat neolithic culture.

And btw how many Greeks came from Turkey,after the population exchange?
Maybe you should start searching from there those mediterranian Anatolian roots.

Hey, genetic researches wouldn't be so naive not to consider this. In another genetic report the Asia Minor people are threated differently from the populations in Thessaly and Macedonia. Greeks from Capadokia for example are most likely Hellenized anatolians if you look back in time. Besides, the most frequent chromosomes in Greek populations are P15 and MJ172 which route from Mesopotamia, Anatolia and Greece. Common markers like those are seen in the east mediteranean populations and Italy.



Also, here is Palmers theory that was expressed back in 1962 and created together with Renfrew a new dimention for the IE theory.

When i said Greeks mixed with Albanians i ment only certain regions like epir for example.

Ok, i didn't get that. Some other Albanian people are less realistic when they express those theories. I can't deny that there was mixing back in the days. Even from the early Greek colonies in Illyricum there must have been some mixing.

My point is that whenever a genetic research is done, Greeks are connected to people like Armenians, Italians, Lebanese etc. Sure there's more blending to mention, but the anatolian/eastern mediteranean people seem to have more similarities. As I said before, Albanians are mostly Dinaric people. See for example Kosovars. Do you see more Dinaric elements on Greeks or eastern Mediteranean?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I was wondering mate ..
Are we talking about proper mixing among Greeks and Albanians in North Epirus
or cultural Hellenization of Albanians contemporarly with cultural Albanization of Greeks. I'm asking cause I'm curius on what realy happened there ??

Well it depends on the period of time u are speaking about. Yes there was a mixing, because till a century ago was more probable to have a marriage between people of the same religion and of different ethnicities then between muslim and Christian Albanians for example. This is just a reasoning im making because we don’t have in Albania,large groups of people(like you have arvanites) that can trace their Greek descendents. Marrying with Greeks wasn’t a Tabu, even during communism, on the contrary, personally I have more then one friend that have mixed parents. However this never brought to the lose of peoples identity,especially in the rural areas, because in any marriage the ethnicity of the male was the only determinant.Thats why even today Greeks and Albanians here are distinct people.
Hence is more the second case that created the mess there,but basically there is not such thing as cultural Albanization,but only Hellenization. About 40% of Albanians there were Orthodox’s,so just imagine that there was at least one church for each village,and every church was a greek school as well. I think you know what were the intents of these institution,and of people like Saint Cosma the Aetolian.So in that period were created many confused Albanians,and there are even today people that carry with them remainings of that mentality.And some Himariots are a good example of that.

[TirAlb]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Flipper

Basically, it covered Thessaly, Macedonia and Peloponisus.

As for the quote, here is a more detailed one from the Aristotelean University press release.



Palaiobalkanic refers to the neolithic Vinca culture of Thrace that can be compared to the Dimini cultures of Greece. That is in other words not Albanian/Illyrian etc which belongs to the Halstaat neolithic culture.



Hey, genetic researches wouldn't be so naive not to consider this. In another genetic report the Asia Minor people are threated differently from the populations in Thessaly and Macedonia. Greeks from Capadokia for example are most likely Hellenized anatolians if you look back in time. Besides, the most frequent chromosomes in Greek populations are P15 and MJ172 which route from Mesopotamia, Anatolia and Greece. Common markers like those are seen in the east mediteranean populations and Italy.



Also, here is Palmers theory that was expressed back in 1962 and created together with Renfrew a new dimention for the IE theory.

Flipper you are mixing a lot of things that arent related at all.Vinca,Hallstatt and genetic researchs.You cant say that Illyrians belong to the Hallstatt culture but that Hallstatt culture may belong to Illyrians,and theres a big difference between the two statements.And the same for Vinca.

Ok, i didn't get that. Some other Albanian people are less realistic when they express those theories. I can't deny that there was mixing back in the days. Even from the early Greek colonies in Illyricum there must have been some mixing.

My point is that whenever a genetic research is done, Greeks are connected to people like Armenians, Italians, Lebanese etc. Sure there's more blending to mention, but the anatolian/eastern mediteranean people seem to have more similarities. As I said before, Albanians are mostly Dinaric people. See for example Kosovars. Do you see more Dinaric elements on Greeks or eastern Mediteranean?

Albanians are very different people,so are Italians and i guess Greeks too.Its true in North Albania you will see mostly Dinaric type people(i have those features too),but in the south and in the coast things change.And its the same with italians for example,from naples upward you will see mostly dynaric type.