Greekness of Molossians

[Ptolemy]

The Molossians were Greeks. Their mythical "anchestor" was the son of Achilles, the leader of the Myrmidons, who participated in the Troyan war
and the first people ever to be refered to as "Greeks". Insriptions left behind from them are all in Greek; in a particular north-western Greek
dialect to be exact. Similar holds BTW for the Macedonians but there the argumeent is that the insriptions found are in many different dialects.
Since I am at it, here's a little "present" from E. Borza, one of the historians that dispute the Greekness of the Macedonians. I am sure it will beenlightening...

"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group,
the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

"We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by
different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to
those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and
Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78

"When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98

[Ptolemy]

"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London,
1994

"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis
and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks."

Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece",
Penguin Publ., 1996

[Ptolemy]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/c*gi-bi...%3At*ext%3A199...


CXXVI. In the next generation Cleisthenes1 the tyrant of Sicyon raised that house still higher, so that it grew much more famous in Hellas than it had formerly been. Cleisthenes son of Aristonymus son of Myron son of Andreas had one daughter, whose name was Agariste. He desired to wed her to the best man he could find in Hellas. [2] It was the time of the Olympian games, and when he was victor there with a four-horse chariot, Cleisthenes made a proclamation that whichever Greek thought himself worthy to be his son-in-law should come on the sixtieth day from then or earlier to Sicyon, and Cleisthenes would make good his promise of marriage in a year from that sixtieth day. [3] Then all the Greeks who were proud of themselves and their country came as suitors, and to that end Cleisthenes had them compete in running and wrestling contests.


CXXVII. From Italy came Smindyrides of Sybaris, son of Hippocrates, the most luxurious liver of his day (and Sybaris was then at the height of
its prosperity), and Damasus of Siris, son of that Amyris who was called the Wise. [2] These came from Italy; from the Ionian Gulf, Amphimnestus son of Epistrophus, an Epidamnian; he was from the Ionian Gulf. From Aetolia came Males, the brother of that Titormus who surpassed all the Greeks in strength, and fled from the sight of men to the farthest parts of the Aetolian land. [3] From the Peloponnese came Leocedes, son of Phidon the tyrant of Argos, that Phidon who made weights and measures for the Peloponnesians1 and acted more arrogantly than any other Greek; he drove out the Elean contest-directors and held the contests at Olympia himself. This man's son now came, and Amiantus, an Arcadian from Trapezus, son of Lycurgus; and an Azenian from the town of Paeus, Laphanes, son of that Euphorion who, as the Arcadian tale relates, gave lodging to the Dioscuri, and ever since kept open house for all men; and Onomastus from Elis, son of Agaeus. [4] These came from the Peloponnese itself; from Athens Megacles, son of that Alcmeon who visited Croesus, and also Hippocleides son of Tisandrus, who surpassed the Athenians in wealth and looks. From Eretria, which at that time was prosperous, came Lysanias; he was the only man from Euboea. From Thessaly came a Scopad, Diactorides of Crannon; and from the Molossians, Alcon.


CXXVIII. These were the suitors. .............

[akritas]

I didn't read the book of Borza book because in the Greece never intresting to read a book that say the known thinks.
I am surprising with those quotes as about the Mollosians!!
Nice info Perseas

But he speaks for Greek speakers, a common term from Borza and the rest of the FYROM

[Ptolemy]

Best book about ancient Epirus, is "Epirus" of NGL Hammond.
i was searching it for long time in Athens bookstores till i find it. Its easy to find it in Salonica from "Ekdoseis Malliaris". The only usefulness i find in having a book of Borza is that Hammond makes many references to self-contradicting arguments used by Borza in his books and i need to have the book to know what the exactly he is writing.

[akritas]

Agree with you. When I have the chance and will go any trip in the US I will searching the Borza book.
You are very lucky with the Hammond and Epirus book. In Athens is very difficult to find the book. The Macedonian State I founded with a lot walking!!!!

[Ptolemy]

More about the greekness of Molossian Royal family from the book of Paul Catledge "The Greeks: Crucible of Civilization 2000".


Chapter 14, page 213

"Still, Olympias, a Greek from Epirus married to a king of Macedon"

Chapter 14, page 216

"Olympias, it seems, though Greek by birth..."

[Ptolemy]

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia.
Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the
Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central
Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron
in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked
by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times.

N.G.L.Hammond,
"Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

[Ptolemy]

Polybios 9.37.7-39.7
Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania to the Lakedaimonians (Spartans):
"In the past you rivalled the Achaians and the Macedonians, peoples of your own race, and Philip, their commander, for the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people Romans, ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians, to take the field with them against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the Thessalians, in fact with almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who are a wicked nation...
...So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your ancestors,... be
afraid of the Romans... and DO ALLY yourselves with the Achaians and Macedonians. But if some the most powerful citizens are opposed to this policy at least stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.

[Ptolemy]

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots."

Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.