Issue about the cham genocide

[Draco]

TirAlb, that Miranda Vickers report is propaganda and fully reflects the Albanian perspective. The Greek government does not recognize a "Cham issue" and frankly I don't see how they can be compelled to do so without opening the floodgates (some of which will have a very negative impact on many countries including Albania itself).

[TirAlb]

I think that is an unbiased description of the situation,useful for people that want to know more about the issue.

ps.Olvis Miranda wrote it,you have quoted her so many times in the past.

[olvios]

Exactly Tiralb and she is not claiming Genocide.She merely mentions what the Chams say .

PS

The chams are the ones that have to apologise and compensate Greece.

German Nazi's killed Jews.Germans military and civilans were killed .Jews were compensated and received apologies from Germans.

Albanian Chams Nazi's Killed Greeks.Albanian Cham military and civilians were killed .Greeks must be compensated and receive apologies from Chams and the Albanian nation as a whole.

Case closed.

Also note that in now way will Nazi collaborators will receive apologies

[yannis-3]

From Miranda Vickers report

Background

The Chams have a strong sense of tradition, identity and community which has united them over the past 62 years since their expulsion from Greece as suspected Nazi collaborators.5 This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans

Can you read?


Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans

[tymphaios]

Originally Posted by Draco

Massacres by EDES started in 1913? Cool!

The best known massacre of EDES was 30 Italians dying in the fighting at Gorgopotamos in 1942, when the famous incident of the destruction of the bridge by Greek guerillas and British commandos took place. In the fighting 30 Italians died. It was not really a massacre, only 30 were killed and they were more heavily armed than the Greeks but does it qualify? The poor Italians could have been having a pizza in Napoli but instead came to Greece on a walk to Athens (as Mussolini called it) only to be massacred by the terrible andartes of EDES. Should we parhaps offer reparations to Italy for the Italians who died in Greece during WWII?

The Tsamides collaborated with the Germans in 1943-1944 and a unit appears to have been formed. In the YouTube video below there are photographs of a German officer reviewing an Albanian unit presumably in Greece and of an officer in German uniform with a fez, possibly Albanian, I understand from Greece - but could be from Albania. In any case Albanians and Germans collaborated in the prosecution of resistance fighters and Greek elders in Epirus. There are clear testimonies of German officers about the Tsamides collaborators. The majority left along with the Germans during liberation in 1944. Emver Hodja executed after the war one of the Tsamides leaders (Mazar Dino) for collaboration with the Germans.

Did we also ethnically cleanse the Germans of Greece during 1944?

YouTube - ???????? " title="YouTube - ????????" target="_blank">YouTube - ????????

20,000 Tsamides German collaborators ask for all of western Greece to become Albanian - the logic of it, the good will to their neighbours - no wonder such people had no written language until 100 years ago...

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I am an Epirote and therefore a Greek and I have on my mind the affairs of all Greeks. Epirus is of course a part of Greece.

[tymphaios]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Akritas probably you are right,its true no evidences no crime,and those chams in Albania and their testimonys are not enough because its only their word against Greek word.And theres one last detail,all that happend on greek soil,a little bit hard to investigate without your permisson.
However im not here to prove anything i don't have to and im not able,i know what happend there and why,and you know as well,thats important.There are people denying the Holocaust around,so im not that naive to think that Greece its not able to hide and distort a such small eveniment in comparision to all that giant thing called WW2.

TirAlb,

You are not just talking about compensation. Your thread is about a “genocide”. A genocide! I do not know what sources claim there was a Cham genocide. I do not think anybody is denying the genocide against the Jews. What relation does that have with this fiction? Just because there was a Jewish genocide by the Germans during the Nazi period, it does not mean that the Albanians (who mostly collaborated with the Nazi Germans and Fascist Italians) were the victims of genocide by the occupied Greeks in WWII. This is complete nonsense! It is pure lack of logic and you should be really asking yourself what kind of a propaganda or cover-up has managed to convince what kind of people (how naive they were) about something so ridiculous.

There were 20,000 Tsamides in Greece before the war, which I understand to mean 20,000 muslim Albanians. Other muslim Albanians might have been exchanged during the exchanges of populations. Often muslims in Greece in the period of the population exchanges were equated with Turks. There were a great number of Greeks in the depths of Turkey and in modern FYROM and Bulgaria who were also exchanged, but we are not talking of a genocide.

Between the two world wars I understand some of the land owned by the Tsamides was confiscated to accommodate refugees from Turkey. This caused problems, somewhat understandable, as most Tsamides did not consider themselves at that time Turks and did not wish to leave and Turkey had reservations about their exchange. They did however take the side of the Italians and the Germans. Tsamides during the occupation of Greece were apparently responsible for burning 24 villages, making thousands homeless and were responsible for the killing or causing the disappearance of over 1000 Greeks. We need to compensate them for this? And ironically a compensation was given by Greece to Albania during the German occupation in 1941 for damages caused in Albania by the Greek army during the war – even though Greece had been the subject of attack.

After the war, a few Tsamides stayed in Greece and were unharmed. The property of others, those that had left, was given in 1952 by a judicial decision to the families of their victims. It seems the majority of the 20,000 Tsamides of Epirus went to Albania as the Axis forces were retreating. I do not think any among them would want to confess that they left because they were, at least many of them, Nazi collaborators. Some Tsamides might claim the Greeks chased them for no reason (ridiculously because the Greek partisans were Nazi collaborators, which only a child could believe…) and that is why they left. No one would admit, whether in communist Albania or immigrants elsewhere, that they had been Nazi collaborators, nor would they say to their children the true reason for which they had to leave.

There are people in Albania I understand who were their descendants, so in any case there was no genocide otherwise there would be no descendants today. But you are not just talking about compensation for their lands (Albania was on the side of the Axis, so the Greeks should be the ones asking for reparations really). You are talking here of a genocide! You say it is our word against yours. What evidence is there for a genocide? There were Greeks in Marsaille and in Barcelona and in Alexandria and in Odessa in Ukraine (these cities were actually founded by the Greeks and were at first inhabited by Greeks) but we are not protesting about their “genocide”. And just because the Spanish would deny a genocide of Greeks in Barcelona, it does not mean that there was one and it is just our word against theirs.

Yes, if I said we demand compensation for the genocide of the Greeks of Barcelona, everyone would ridicule me, and some might even fight me if they got mad enough, but I do not think I would ever win that one. Please live in reality.

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I am an Epirote and therefore a Greek and I have on my mind the affairs of all Greeks. Epirus is of course a part of Greece.

[Paulos Melas]

TirAlb evidence please? I mean for the great calamity and the holocaust everybody knows it and speaks about it. Can you provide some evidence please?

[Morphesau]

ALBANIAN NAZIS

You Tube " title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube

Truth has to be known.

Edit.
Changed youtube. Other one was off topic. My bad

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored. Cham-owned properties in Greece are assessed at around US$2.8billion and include vineyards, forestry and grazing land, domestic and commercial property.

[Morphesau]

Excuse my language.

A ten year old child !
Filty animals