Issue about the cham genocide

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dm0XgmWb5U

^^

2500 Chams killed and 20,000 expelled as a result of siding with the Nazis and Fascists is not a genocide. It's a war.

I could present just as many horrific stories of from the Greek perspective in Southern Albanian during WWII.


Albania in the Twentieth Century: A History - Page 449
by Owen Pearson - Albania - 2006

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

^^

2500 Chams killed and 20,000 expelled as a result of siding with the Nazis and Fascists is not a genocide. It's a war.

I could present just as many horrific stories of from the Greek perspective in Southern Albanian during WWII.


Albania in the Twentieth Century: A History - Page 449
by Owen Pearson - Albania - 2006

Compliments,a very racist document,prefectly integrated in the trend of Greek claims toward south Albania.
Albania for Greeks was like heaven in comparison to what Greece was for Albanians.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Albania for Greeks was like heaven in comparison to what Greece was for Albanians.

Which explains why the Arvanites are fleeing to Albania whereas the Greek minority in Albania are staying put.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Draco

Which explains why the Arvanites are fleeing to Albania whereas the Greek minority in Albania are staying put.

Thats for economic reasons and its happening only in the recent years,but actually your phrase without the sarcastic note makes a lot of sense.

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Thats for economic reasons and its happening only in the recent years,but actually your phrase without the sarcastic note makes a lot of sense.

U think? I think you have a heavily distorted view as to the treatment of "Albanian" minorities in Greece. Up to the expulsion, as far as I'm concerned, the Chams were treated just like the Greeks in Albania.

Regarding the Arvanites, or "Orthodox Albanians" as you call them, since they were not an ethnic minority (because they didn't perceive themselves as one), comparing their circumstances to those of an ethnic minority with ties to another country is a mistake and misleading. Any oppression to which they were subjected would have been in the form of semi-voluntary linguistic suppression: the cultivation of a belief that the Albanian language was an imperfect language with defective vocabulary and flawed grammar, and was a badge of backwardness and ignorance.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Draco

U think? I think you have a heavily distorted view as to the treatment of "Albanian" minorities in Greece. Up to the expulsion, as far as I'm concerned, the Chams were treated just like the Greeks in Albania.

Im sure atually,chams living all over tho world and not in chameria are enough to proof that.The treatments for greeks was always quite acceptable,and just incomparable with the treatments Albanians had in Yugoslavia or Greece.

Regarding the Arvanites, or "Orthodox Albanians" as you call them, since they were not an ethnic minority (because they didn't perceive themselves as one), comparing their circumstances to those of an ethnic minority with ties to another country is a mistake and misleading.Any oppression to which they were subjected would have been in the form of semi-voluntary linguistic suppression: the cultivation of a belief that the Albanian language was an imperfect language with defective vocabulary and flawed grammar, and was a badge of backwardness and ignorance.

Yeah Draco,but who cultivated that believe?You,the Greek church,in collaboration with the Ottomans that did the same with Albanian moslems.Do you know that the Albanian language was banned,and writing it was severely forbidden?All this with the blessing of the Greek church.So if you bann a language,eleminate everyone that tries to write and spread it,make a lot of propaganda by instiling the idea that Albanian is badge of bacwardness and ignrance(indeed this last one is to far sofisticated,they were just saying that if you speak Albanian god will not understand you and you will burn in hell),than you can't pretend from Albanians that were able preserve their identity to just accept it.

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Compliments,a very racist document,prefectly integrated in the trend of Greek claims toward south Albania.
Albania for Greeks was like heaven in comparison to what Greece was for Albanians.

It's racist because it states that Albanians were committing atrocities against the Greek population with the assistance and blessing of the Italians and Germans?

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Im sure atually,chams living all over tho world and not in chameria are enough to proof that.The treatments for greeks was always quite acceptable,and just incomparable with the treatments Albanians had in Yugoslavia or Greece.

So in your opinion, the Greek treatment of the Chams (which Mazower claims that the Greek gov did not even attempt to assimilate) resulted in their siding with the Nazis against the Greeks. Right?

Mazower states:

Three decades of Greek rule had not seen any serious effort to assimilate the Chams

I posted it. Last sentence, second paragraph from the bottom......

[Draco]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Im sure atually,chams living all over tho world and not in chameria are enough to proof that.The treatments for greeks was always quite acceptable,and just incomparable with the treatments Albanians had in Yugoslavia or Greece.

That's why I said "before the expulsion". Notably though, Greeks in Albania did not collaborate with the Nazis.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Yeah Draco,but who cultivated that believe?You,the Greek church,in collaboration with the Ottomans that did the same with Albanian moslems.Do you know that the Albanian language was banned,and writing it was severely forbidden?All this with the blessing of the Greek church.So if you bann a language,eleminate everyone that tries to write and spread it,make a lot of propaganda by instiling the idea that Albanian is badge of bacwardness and ignrance(indeed this last one is to far sofisticated,they were just saying that if you speak Albanian god will not understand you and you will burn in hell),than you can't pretend from Albanians that were able preserve their identity to just accept it.

Albanian nationalism did not exist when that belief came about. Albanian nationalism developed later and the Arvanites were never a part of it. This is why it is wrong to say they are or were "Albanians" meaning part of the Albanian nation. The loyalties of people then were tribal and religious; it was the spirit and fashion of the times, not some "evil" conspiracy to suppress the "Albanian nation". I highly doubt the Ottomans or the Greek church perceived what they were doing that way.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

It's racist because it states that Albanians were committing atrocities against the Greek population with the assistance and blessing of the Italians and Germans?

It is racist because it contains racist remarks.I just noticed that the document was from ww2 because in the begining i thought it was much older.I guess it doesn't make any difference though,the language and the methods were allways the same,trying to create an idea of an greek epirote suffering in order to justificate a future armed intervention.Even nazis used an excuse to invade poland.

So in your opinion, the Greek treatment of the Chams (which Mazower claims that the Greek gov did not even attempt to assimilate) resulted in their siding with the Nazis against the Greeks. Right?

Mazower states:



I posted it. Last sentence, second paragraph from the bottom......

Is so hard to understan why?You had other plans with them,forcing them to leave and thats what you did on many occasions.

That's why I said "before the expulsion". Notably though, Greeks in Albania did not collaborate with the Nazis.

Yes but they collaborated with Greece.

Albanian nationalism did not exist when that belief came about. Albanian nationalism developed later and the Arvanites were never a part of it. This is why it is wrong to say they are or were "Albanians" meaning part of the Albanian nation. The loyalties of people then were tribal and religious; it was the spirit and fashion of the times, not some "evil" conspiracy to suppress the "Albanian nation". I highly doubt the Ottomans or the Greek church perceived what they were doing that way.

Draco we are speaking about policies that first your church and than diretly your state followed undisturbed until 1920,when finally our state somehow started to walk on its own feets.And we are not speaking only about Arvanites but all epirus,the northern part included.

[Peace Lover]

Stop talking bullshits !
There are human life's , not candies !
Stop claiming stupid books scribed by stupid authors !
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Only real facts , real historical documents !
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Does exist real historical documents to approve the Albanian atrocities in "Northern Epirus" ?
No , why , because those are bullshits created by the Greek Nazi !
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Did exist historical documents to approve the massacre of "Southern Epirus" by the Greeks to the Albanian minority ?
YES !
1- Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas's work was followed in March 1945 with a large scale massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land.
2- In March 1945 units of Zervas's dissolved forces carried out a massacre of Chams in the Filiates area, and practically cleared the district of the Albanian minority. According to all the information I have been able to gather on the Cham issue, in the fall of 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north-western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting some 25,000 Chams - residents of Chameria - from their homes. They were chased across the border after having been robbed of their land and property. Hundreds of male Chams from the ages of 15 to 70 were interned on the islands of the Aegean Sea. In total 102 mosques were burnt down.
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Now do you see who's the difference between the innocent people and the terrorists and also liars !
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Bravo , "fratelli" !