ALBANIANS AND GREEKS (The Times)

[TirAlb]

ALBANIANS AND GREEKS.

(FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.)
CONSTANTlNOPLE, Nov. 15.
The last three months have been marked by an increase of the tension between Greeks| and Albanians in Epirus and in the Macedonian district of lioritza. For this the policy of the (Ecumenical Patriarchate is largely respon- sible. On the proclamation of the Constitution in Macedonia, the Albanians of the southern and central districts were induced to join the Young Turks by the promise that, among other things, the use of their language would be per- rnitted in Government and private schools. The efforts of Albarian patriots, mostly Moslems vho belonged to influential Tosk and Lyap families, to promote unity and progress among their compatriots by means of an educational and literary propaganda had been sternly repressed by Sultan Abdul Hamid. The Sultan saw danger in any movement that aimed at the conversion of the Arnauts from freebooters and swashbucklers into norrnal citizens with aspirations towards better government, and, possibly, with Nationalist leanings. Ag-ain. while the majority of the Albanian leaders were Moslems, the teaclhers in Albanian schools were, as a rule, Christians. That Christians and Moslems should work in harmony together added to the alarm of Yildiz.

POLICY OF THE PATRIARCHATE

The (Ecumenical Patriarchate seconded the Sultan's efforts. Many of the clhildren who frequented the 41banian schools wvere of the Orthodox faith That Orthodox Patriarehist children should receive instruction through any but a Greek medium. Uiat thev should be encouraged to call themselves "Shkyipetar - (Albanian) and not Greek, was bitterly resented by the leaders of a Church which, for the last three generations, has tended to become more and more a mere machmie for the imposition of "IHellenism" on non-Hellenes. Christians were denounced, excommunicated, and threat- ened by order of the Patriarchate. 3Moslems and Clhristians were banished and imprisoned by order of Yildiz, and bv 1908 the two despots had succeeded in closing every Albanian school save one at Koritza, which -was kept open by the courage of an Albanian schoolmistress and the influence of American missionaries supported by their Ambassador. The revolution, thereforo, found most intelli- gent Albanians by no means friendly to the Greeks. At KIoritza the Albanian party revived the more rapidly, since its programme was based on a rapprochemernt between Christians and MIoslems, and since it had but one murder, that of the PatriarchistR Bishop of Koritza, to its discredit. The Hellenizing section, small in numbers, but in receipt of large Greek subsidies, kept quiet and -was not molested until early in September, when an "anti-Albanizing" demonstration by some of its members led to an exlchange of revolver shots between Yanni Dardas, its leader, and Ferid Bey, an "Albaniz- ing" notable, both of whom were wounded. About the same time the Greek priest of Neco- van, where the local authorities had forced the Patriarchists to allow an Albanian priest to conduct Divine service in Albanian on alternate Sundays, seized the church and, aided by his brother and a chorister, bludgeoned his rival wlhen he appeared to remonstrate. The Albanian, whose predecessor had been assaqsinated by the Greeks for translating the Greek liturgy into his mother tongue, drewv a revolver as he lay on the ground, shot the priest, and severely wounded his companions. This incident did muchI to exasperate both parties in the Koritza district.

EVENTS IN EPIRUS.

In Epirus M.L Rali's most inopportune tour lest autumn resulted in an outburst of Helleniic fervour and a corresponding increase of activity on the part of the Christian and Moslem Albanians. The Bek-tashi sect joined in this movement. Albanian clubs and schools were founded in several centres and assassinations and brawls attested the growth of party spirit. A certain Rromida, a Greek ex-brigand, who had shot a gendarme, formed a band. Tle chief exploit of this band, the murder and mutilation of seven Jewish cattle-dealers of Prevesa, was described as "rather harsh - in an otherwise exculpatory article by the leading Thessalian journal. The same journal shortly afterwards celebrated Kromida's acquittal by a Greek Court on a charge, preferred by the Turkish authorities, of having kidnapped a "Rumanizing" llach of Metsovo, whom he killed in cold blood on the Greek side of the border. Thus the excitement caused among Albanians by his recent preparations to invade Epirus with his band is comprehensible enough. The Patriarchate can still maintain its hold on the spiritual allegiance of the 250,000 Orthodox Albanians by permitting the use in their schools and churhees of the Albanian language. Such a concession would do much to improve the relations between Albanian and Greek, but the past history of the Patriarch- ate does not afford mnch support to the hope that it will be granted. Otherwise events seem to point to the formation at no very distant date of an "autocephalous" Albanian Church and to the growth in Epirms and the Koritza district of a strong Moslem and Christian opposi- tion, not only to the Patriarchate, but to Greek influence, under whatever form it may manifest itself.

The Times | November 25, 1909

[chicagogeorge]

We all know that many Albanian Orthodox in Epirus, in time, were assimilated with the Greeks, but that does not negate the fact that Greeks were the majority in Epirus, both statistically and culturally.

[Grace]

what's the background on these two guys? read the entire article George, this guy is far from objective. Even he admits that they are 300,000 Greek Orthodox (that is not Greek as we now it!) and then he goes how "Mohamedans" did this and that so the Southern Christians deserve to be with Greece because they will not be treated fairly and don't deserve to be with the "savage North." (ironically, they didn't have an Ali Pasha to subdue them and open commerce)

What then should be done with Albania?
Should there be an independent Albania?
We believe that there should be an independent Albania.
But this new state should consist of only the Mussulman Albanians,
who are in the large majority — namely, 1,100,000 as
against 390,000 Christians.
The Greek Orthodox Albanians to the south should be
included in Greece, as by culture, religion, and in feeling the
Christian Albanians to Durazzo are more Greeks than Albanians.
The Catholics to the north, 100,000 of them, should
be left autonomous. Thus we should have an homogeneous
Albania of 1,100,000 people, administered by the Great
Powers.
This scheme will at least eliminate the religious difficulties.
And to those who believe that Christians and Mussulmans
can live together at peace in the New Albania, we wish to say
that they have not known the Mussulmans.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aWI...sult#PPA301,M1

Basically they are arguing that the North is savage because they are like the Suli, they accepted no submission (and the civilization that would have come with it) While Suli was a small island of rebellion, the entire North was 'self managed' and nothing penetrated so they stayed in the dark for centuries.

The reason you see no Albanian churches was that there no Albanian Orthodox Church, and of course, Turks and Greeks conspired to block Albanian language from being taught. All this tells me that Greece, having way more money than Albanians, tried to hellenize the region hoping to get it. Given that all those heroes and folklore has been adopted I can see why Greeks want it

Here's another source:

It is only by including within the limits of a free Albania all the lands inhabited by the Albanian race, the populous region of Prisrend and Djakova, as well as, the more civilised province of Epirus, that a worthy future can be assured to her. The question begging name of "Old Servia" settles no titles, while the Greek claim to Epirus rests on no better foundation than the confusion of the terms Greek and Orthodox.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bfl...k+and+Orthodox

BTW: 50% of Albanian speak Italian and English as well now. Are we Albanian or ...?

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Grace

what's the background on these two guys? read the entire article George, this guy is far from objective. ...

Is this Parliamentary essay from 1879 also far from objective??

UK Parliamentary Paper in 1879 on Epirus:




...

Here's another source:


http://books.google.com/books?id=Bfl...k+and+Orthodox

BTW: 50% of Albanian speak Italian and English as well now. Are we Albanian or ...?

From your source Noel basically says that the Albanians who lived in Epirus, were mainly Orthodox, and culturally aligned witht the Greeks but he does seem to get it dead wrong about the language of the region. Greek was the principle language not only of the Greeks in Epirus, but it was also the language of commerce for the Turks, and most Albanians (both Orthodox and Mulsim). Ali Pasha used Greek in his court!

Originally Posted by Grace

[b]All this tells me that Greece, having way more money than Albanians, tried to hellenize the region hoping to get it. Given that all those heroes and folklore has been adopted I can see why Greeks want it

Grace we didn't have to Hellenize Epirus, the Greeks that lived there were Hellenic, and so were most of the Albanians....

[TirAlb]

Basically here you have the answers,in the article i posted before.But please find smth else next time,the language used in that book,is enough to make it unreliable.

The (Ecumenical Patriarchate seconded the Sultan's efforts. Many of the clhildren who frequented the 41banian schools wvere of the Orthodox faith That Orthodox Patriarehist children should receive instruction through any but a Greek medium. Uiat thev should be encouraged to call themselves "Shkyipetar - (Albanian) and not Greek, was bitterly resented by the leaders of a Church which, for the last three generations, has tended to become more and more a mere machmie for the imposition of "IHellenism" on non-Hellenes. Christians were denounced, excommunicated, and threat- ened by order of the Patriarchate. 3Moslems and Clhristians were banished and imprisoned by order of Yildiz, and bv 1908 the two despots had succeeded in closing every Albanian school ...

... save one at Koritza, which -was kept open by the courage of an Albanian schoolmistress and the influence of American missionaries supported by their Ambassador.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

Is this Parliamentary essay from 1879 also far from objective??

UK Parliamentary Paper in 1879 on Epirus:

Obviously a post "Berlin Congress" document,famous among the other things for Bismarcs phrase:"An albanian nation doesn't exist"(or so),so absoluteli not objective.
Among the interesting things:
Epirus from Pindus to the North entirely Albanian,seacoast mixed and the rest(which rest btw) Greek.
Also the best part ever,Chams with become the mos ardent champions of Hellenism.Yes we saw how it ended.But what can i say,"thank's" UK.

[chicagogeorge]

Ok, let's see what you can say about this one

[Grace]

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

Greek was the principle language not only of the Greeks in Epirus, but it was also the language of commerce for the Turks, and most Albanians (both Orthodox and Mulsim). Ali Pasha used Greek in his court!

Ali Pasha used it and so did the Turks, but you must distinguish between using it and being Greek. It was the language of commerce so Albanians spoke it, just as me and you write in English, but I am Albanian and you are Greek. Ali Pasha used it to impress the ambasadors On whether he was called King of Albanians or Epiriotes is irrelevant and this guy is dying to give Greeks more land. The fact that it was sent to the London parliament doesn't make it true. In fact he is hoping that everyone there Hellenizes.

Let's not forget the goodwill the modern Greeks had from the ancients ones and no one cared about Albania. All I see are his opinions and wishes. You had to know Greek and Albanians did, just as today they speak Italians, Greek and English. If I say or really think that I am Chinese, am I? This was a land grab and Greece and its friends had every reason to twist the facts.

Plus, here you go from Arta, Janina, and on the other post you mention Durres as well. As a side note: No 'patriotic' Greek will admit it but under Ali Pasha, for all the bad things, Greek language and culture flourished. He even allowed Greek schools and the new alphabet was refined.

Grace we didn't have to Hellenize Epirus, the Greeks that lived there were Hellenic, and so were most of the Albanians....

I was talking about the rush before the border settling. We aren't that dumb

[chicagogeorge]

Ok, Grace, in the face of massive evidence, you continue to defy logic. I will not sit here and tell you that Albanians, did not live in Epirus, but how can you tell me that the Albanians, formed the majority of the region, when even in Southern Albania as recently as 20 years ago, a large portion of the population (if not the majority) was Greek?

Here is what my American brethren said back in 1882 about Epirus and their freedom from Ottoman Rule.... Basically, the first paragraph is the important one, which tells us how the Epirotes felt as a result of the "new borders".

[Grace]

George, George, George:
First, once again you're lumping all in one "Epiriotes."
Second, there was NO ALBANIA, so even if it's true that "many" were upset, they were upset at being left with Turkey. The choice was Turkey or Greece, not Greece or Albania.


Yes, those Suli Albanians were great fighters and so where the mostly soldiers of Ali Pasha who fought the Sultan (Kurdish Pasha ?) for over a year. FYI: Muslims were called Epiriotes as well.

when even in Southern Albania as recently as 20 years ago, a large portion of the population (if not the majority) was Greek?

Huh??? You must be smoking something. I am sure that most Southern Albanians would accept a Greek pension and an EU passport, but that's doesn't make them Greek. if you include ALL Orthodox (Albanians, Vlachs and Greeks,) than it is a substantial portion.