Greek-Albanian relations over N.Epirus and the Greek minority (split thread)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

yes as the massacre of 62 cham leaders in 1913(2 of them were skined alive)has taken place,or as the entire inhabitants of peshtan village were killed(it is not even in "north epir"),babys heads were cutted and throwed in a well,womans raped and killed,men burned alive in the villages church.And this happened during the "liberation" of epir by the "saint batalions" in 1914.And you advice me to acknowledge some irelevant cases hapened some years later?

This is the second time that you've presented these outrageous claims without supporting it with any form of documentation and simply by judging from the previous time you made them, they'll again remain simply supported by your word on it.
But your general mentality is seen through your titling the continuous supression and persecutions of the Hellenic minority of N.Epirus as irrelevent cases. WHAT more relevent to the years of persecution than the very act od persection itself ?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

This is the second time that you've presented these outrageous claims without supporting it with any form of documentation and simply by judging from the previous time you made them, they'll again remain simply supported by your word on it.
But your general mentality is seen through your titling the continuous supression and persecutions of the Hellenic minority of N.Epirus as irrelevent cases. WHAT more relevent to the years of persecution than the very act od persection itself ?

Dosja e zez e Greqis, 1912-2007 :: DERVINA.COM - Arkivi i lajmeve

if you want the translation of singular events post the date here.
The other case was a direct testimonaniance of the cham comunity so none of the facts was invented by me!
The proofs of the alb "attrocities" in the other topic werent more than a desperate attempt of some greeks to have the same rights of their counterpart in south epire.."ruling over the albanian majority".

[Orphic_Hymn]

I requested documentation of the alleged attrocities that you have claimed took place and in return I get an article written in Albanian that while is rediculously titled "history", goes as far as to include the acts of Alban Bushi during the game of last March between Apollon-Iraklis.. WTF?!?
Yeah, I must admit that you've convinced me that "tirana observer" is an accurate historic source on the alleged "crimes" you've claimed and is obviously not out there aiming to influence the ignorant and gullible.

As for the proofs of the other topic, at least they are officially documented in the proceedings of a Peace Conference and not in some propaganda site that attempts to implicate a player's stupidity to some alleged massacre.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

I requested documentation of the alleged attrocities that you have claimed took place and in return I get an article written in Albanian that while is rediculously titled "history", goes as far as to include the acts of Alban Bushi during the game of last March between Apollon-Iraklis.. WTF?!?
Yeah, I must admit that you've convinced me that "tirana observer" is an accurate historic source on the alleged "crimes" you've claimed and is obviously not out there aiming to influence the ignorant and gullible.

As for the proofs of the other topic, at least they are officially documented in the proceedings of a Peace Conference and not in some propaganda site that attempts to implicate a player's stupidity to some alleged massacre.

Tirana observer is an independet serious paper and this was an article based on the study of two historian on the Greece-Albanian relations.
Yes the facts presented in the peace conference from the greek side are noted for their impartiality!And so reliable were these evidences that the usual compliant international community (that just some years ago 1913 gave you a good piece of albania,and one year later forced the new albanian state to sign the corfu agreement)rejected all your claims.I readed that when to venizelos was tought that south albania was inhabited from albanians,he said:"its not a big deal i have three albanian ministers even in my goverment"

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Tirana observer is an independet serious paper and this was an article based on the study of two historian on the Greece-Albanian relations.
Yes the facts presented in the peace conference from the greek side are noted for their impartiality!And so reliable were these evidences that the usual compliant international community (that just some years ago 1913 gave you a good piece of albania,and one year later forced the new albanian state to sign the corfu agreement)rejected all your claims.I readed that when to venizelos was tought that south albania was inhabited from albanians,he said:"its not a big deal i have three albanian ministers even in my goverment"

So the propaganda article is considered accurate yet you rediculously reject the context of the official reports presented during the peace conference and accepted as facts, based on the assuption that Autonomous Epirus wasn't included in their plans?

None, not a single one of the facts presented were rejected nor considered as questionable. Change in geopolitical interests has little to do with the well recorded fact that the minority was treated terribly. I'd suggest you learn about the alliances and what was offered to various sides during ww1

But I can't but notice how you're taught history.. you claim "I read" but conveniently present no book title, no name of author.
You make rediculous claims implying that Venizelos didn't know the composition of the region's population.
You make undocumented claims of killings and massacres yet constantly prove your ignorance on the well documented persecutions by titling them irrelevent.
and to top it all off, you make continuous claims on people that never gave a damn about your country nor its people.

[TirAlb]

None, not a single one of the facts presented were rejected nor considered as questionable. Change in geopolitical interests has little to do with the well recorded fact that the minority was treated terribly. I'd suggest you learn about the alliances and what was offered to various sides during ww1

I brought it,accepting it or not is up to you.A dossier used from the greek goverment to claim more albanian land is reliable?And however it was quite disapoiting,just some imprisoned persons,like that one asking for money,and the worst crime there probably wasn't even on ethnic bases.
How we treated terribly your comunity when the ours wasn't even a real state?btw that dossier based on some letters writed from persecuted greeks was very poor!But i guess how were treated albanians in greece at that time.

But I can't but notice how you're taught history.. you claim "I read" but conveniently present no book title, no name of author.
You make rediculous claims implying that Venizelos didn't know the composition of the region's population.
You make undocumented claims of killings and massacres yet constantly prove your ignorance on the well documented persecutions by titling them irrelevent.
and to top it all off, you make continuous claims on people that never gave a damn about your country nor its people.

Im in a forum and not in a tribunal so i don't have to give you allways proofs/references on what i say.Sry ,but that quote about venizelos is true,it was an answer to the remark made to him by another interlocutor.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

I brought it,accepting it or not is up to you.A dossier used from the greek goverment to claim more albanian land is reliable?And however it was quite disapoiting,just some imprisoned persons,like that one asking for money,and the worst crime there probably wasn't even on ethnic bases.

Just a couple of lines down you claim you weren't even a real state yet here you claim that we were making claims on Albanian lands. Can't you see the contradiction here?
Anyway, while your selective reading of the facts is highly annoying, since you intentionally avoided to mention the accounts of killings, eyes plucked out, house burnings..etc as I said the events are well documented. for example:

*Harper's Weekly Magazine of April 24, 1915 :

"Within a few weeks of his advent, Prince Wied had
Mohammedans killing Greeks in Christian Epirus, and
Catholics slaughtering Mohammedans within view of his
palace.


*some quotes from Rene Puaux's article published in the Le Temps on May 1st 1914:

Ten thousand Epirotes, refugees, have arrived here.
The Albanians have burnt their homes. .......

"Twenty-five villages opposite Corfu have been sacked
and burned down by the Albanian hordes"


"To surrender to an artificial Albania a people which
differs from the Albanians in language, in civilization, in
religion and in aspirations, is a crime.

"All Epirus from Cape St. Basil to Cape St. John
is absolutely Greek ; the friends and relatives of these
Epirotes constitute the intellectual and plutocratic
aristocracy of Athens, and Patras."



On May 2nd 1914 he wrote:

"It is not a question what Greece wants. It is a question
what the Epirotes want. And should Greece be
forced to refuse the Epirotes, they, none the less, are
determined to secure their union with Greece.

"If Epirus was a 'no-man's-land,' that is a land without
national sentiment, it would have been very easy for
Italy and Austria to swallow it. But North Epirus,
which Italy pretends that she wants to give to Albania,
is the hearth of Neo-Hellenism. The Epirotes are more
Greek than the other Greeks.

Im in a forum and not in a tribunal so i don't have to give you allways proofs/references on what i say.Sry ,but that quote about venizelos is true,it was an answer to the remark made to him by another interlocutor.

Always?
You've never supported any single one of your claims in any history related issue, its always "I say so", just like you did again here, "its true.. someone made the remark but I have no idea who he was nor any source to support it". True its a simple internet forum BUT the discussion is related to history and when discussing history, there are no personal opinions just hard facts, so do try to start providing us with some.