Giorgios Kastriotis aka Gjerg Kastriot Skanderbeg

[Hellas7]

Originally Posted by Hermes

From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).

Name them. All 90 out of 100.


And do not call Arvanites Albanians, they know nothing of the name Shqiptar. They know nothing of your people. They were viewing themselves as Greeks before your people even started calling themselves Shqiptar.

[Hermes]

Soon i will take their names ,i am not an expert even a historian or paid to be the first here.About Arvanites for one thing i think u can be sure : their mother language is not greek and no one cant denie its not albanian.As i had said before u understand people by religion, no matter what they are.If this is your point >>>U are ok.they are orthodox even Skanderbeg was even many of my parents are,but none greek.
About Albanian/Shqipetar/Arber/Arvanitis and so on u must first know that Arberia was just a principate,and for what is understood today as albanian(by forigners) wasnt living just in that territor.They had emigrate for centuries and just kept their language and u just continued(kept) to call them Arvan-itis(v-b , n-r = Arber + itis by greek)we cant say they kept a very strong identity beside language and tradition.After indipendece(1821) they felt after 400 years free from turks like u and felt equal to the others,religion(after discrimination)too, why didnt them do that things of schools and libraries.Why didnt they do it in Albania? i ask u when?when Albania was still under Turkia, or during the transition years between 2 WW.How were our diplomatic relations?and what to say when Alb was under Dictator E.Hoxha? with Greece wasnt only The Cold WAR but the real state of war too.
Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.U must know about Aristidh Kola and his Books.if u find and read him , u must understand a lot.For what he wrote he was killed.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Hermes

About Arvanites for one thing i think u can be sure : their mother language is not greek and no one cant denie its not albanian.

Linguistic connection or adoption of a language does not prove ethnic background. If it did, we'd all be British or any other english speaking ethnicity you'd like to mention.

As i had said before u understand people by religion, no matter what they are.If this is your point >>>U are ok.they are orthodox even Skanderbeg was even many of my parents are,but none greek.

If this was the case, then the Spata, Liosi or the Bardouniotes (all Albanian and not Arvanites) would have been considered our brethen. But based on the fact that they never were considered as such, you can see that religion is not the basic factor.

Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.U must know about Aristidh Kola and his Books.if u find and read him , u must understand a lot.For what he wrote he was killed.

Yeah, Aristeidis Kollias, the lawyer that wrote the questionable book.
As for his death, you should inform the nationalist fools that promote the fairy tale of his poisoning that they should at least show some respect towards the deceased, since the man died from CANCER !!!!

[Theodosivs]

Orphic, your thinking dellusionaly. Read the article that I posted from Hammond in the other topic; free speech forum on the Alb linguistic topic. I can post more articles later if you want.

I cant post html's yet.

I do not doubt the Greek character of modern days Arvanities. I do not deny their Greek character nor the fact that their contributions have been to Greek people.

However, can you please explain to me why they carry hellenized versions of Alb surnames? Lekas, Gjokas, Gjikas,Dhimas,Kolas, Dedes, Kriezis, Pepas. I can go on and on with these names.

Can you tell me what these names mean? I sure can translate them for you? They are Christian names morphed into Albanian vernacular. These are the names many Arvanites carry? If these people were Greeks originally then they would carry Albanized versions of Greek names. These names have Greek origins, however they are Christian names.

Linguistic connection or adoption of a language does not prove ethnic background. If it did, we'd all be British or any other english speaking ethnicity you'd like to mention.

This is an international forum, using the lingua franca of the world. Most of the Greeks here seem to be from the diaspora... It's not the same at all. How would a people simply lose their language and adopt new one? Albanian influence was not that big then.

You are argued your point for the reason that you fear Albs claiming these people or dont want to connect with Albs, but their origins are attested by others.

If this was the case, then the Spata, Liosi or the Bardouniotes (all Albanian and not Arvanites) would have been considered our brethen. But based on the fact that they never were considered as such, you can see that religion is not the basic factor.

There was no such thing as Albanian during those times. Even the Turkish Arnavut comes from the Greek Arvanite. The Albanians in Italy call themselves Arberesh while the Croat Albs called themselves Arbanitasi. The Vlachs called Christian Albs "Arbanese". This is a universal thing. Are you telling me all these people did not have Alb origins but rather Greek one? Are you saying that these people are wrong and you are right?

I dont expect to change your view, your too paranoid. But Ill just say that what you are arguing is not very much accepted in academic circles.

[Theodosivs]

Here is a comprehensive list:

kinis=Yannis, Gkiokas=Yiorghos

Kepas=kremidi (onion), Kriezis=Mavrokefalos (blackhead), Kriekoukis=kokkinokefalos (redhead), Lepouras=Lagos (Rabit), Boukouras=omorfos (beautiful), Bouras=genaios (brave), Skourtis=kontos (short), Tsalas=koutsos, Fourikis=kotetsi, Pliakas=sevasmios gerontas (respectful elder), Pyrpyris=eksartomenos (dependent), Pliotas=Mpolikos, sostos (plenty, right), Votsis=mikro paidi, moutsos (little kid), Zotos=kirios, theos (lord\sir, god), Koskos=kokalo (bone), Korpas=kormi, kormos (body), Krieklokis=adeio kefali (empty head) , Kriemadis=megalos, kefalas ,

Arvanitis, Arvanitidis, Arvanitopoulos, Arvanitakis, Arnaoutis, Arnaoutoglou, Tzimas, Tzavelas, Tsiamis, Tsamis, Liapis, Laliotis, Miaoulis, Vokos, Kokkas-Kokkidis,Kokkizas, Kikizas, Gkikizas (Kefali, Head), Liotsis (filos, friend), Lialios (big brother), Liamis=aloni, Liaros=pardalos, Lioymis (makarios,kalotichos), Liakouris (gimnos-naked, nichterida-bat), Bardis (leukos, white), Bourdas (tsouvali), Pallas-Pallis (spathi-sword), Prapas-Prapopoulos (anthropos anapodos, kakos - evil), Spatas (tsekouri, hammer), Trimis (antrios stratiotis - brave soldier), Tselios (prositos, anthropos tou kosmou - man of the world), Tsunis (boy)

Greeks in Albania carry Greek names. They are very very obvious. This would not make sense however. How have these Greeks maintained their surnames under Albanian influence and these Greeks have not?

Not just Christian names but non-Christian names also: Kryezeze for instance?

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Why didnt they do it in Albania? i ask u when?when Albania was still under Turkia, or during the transition years between 2 WW.How were our diplomatic relations?and what to say when Alb was under Dictator E.Hoxha? with Greece wasnt only The Cold WAR but the real state of war too.
Be sure they had made enough for their country just writing about them.

This argument is very similar to the theories skopjans use so as to justify their absence as ethnic "macedonians" in every cultural,military,diplomatic or political occasion (for example the balkan war's treaties,WW1 and 2) until 1945.That they were poor with few possessions and not a country of their own.Now,even before the foundation of the Hellenic State after the Greek Revolution,one can find monuments constructed in different places than the greek soil,for example the church San Giorgio dei Greci in Venice built in 16th century, with a clear Greek stamp that testimony the fact that he who felt to belong to a precise ethnic/national group he demonstrated it in various occasions.Other example in a different field is the Greek newspaper published in Vienna by Rigas Fereos decades before Greece's liberation from the Ottoman rule.The non grecophone Greeks among them the arvanites too,did not choose to contribute to the development of Greece -which was free after 1821- and something else, but did so because they were attached and devoted only to the hellenic idea.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Theodosivs

Orphic, your thinking dellusionaly. Read the article that I posted from Hammond in the other topic; free speech forum on the Alb linguistic topic. I can post more articles later if you want.

I cant post html's yet.

I do not doubt the Greek character of modern days Arvanities. I do not deny their Greek character nor the fact that their contributions have been to Greek people.

However, can you please explain to me why they carry hellenized versions of Alb surnames? Lekas, Gjokas, Gjikas,Dhimas,Kolas, Dedes, Kriezis, Pepas. I can go on and on with these names.

Can you tell me what these names mean? I sure can translate them for you? They are Christian names morphed into Albanian vernacular. These are the names many Arvanites carry? If these people were Greeks originally then they would carry Albanized versions of Greek names. These names have Greek origins, however they are Christian names.

I see your point of logic but if we were to look into it again, then according to the way you think, then people with surnames similar to Habibakis, Kehagias, Zaimis, Pesmazoglou, Aslanis..etc just as the vast majority of Pontians must be of Turkish descent (if anyone can define what a Turk actually is) since their names are based on Turkish words, those with names like Karotsieris, Kasieris..etc should be of Italian descent for the same reason.. etc

The history of the region called Albania and the movements of people seems to be obscure. But, we know that in 1322 Albanians did not constitute the majority in the South (specifically Durres) as it has been accounted for by Robert Elsie who is considered the authority on Albanian history. Interestingly enough, while according to Simon Fitzsimmons (who R.Elsie quotes), the Albanians were not the majority of the population and had only recently appeared in the area, their language seemed to have been widely spoken along the shores. This could be the reason you're looking for.

This is an international forum, using the lingua franca of the world. Most of the Greeks here seem to be from the diaspora... It's not the same at all. How would a people simply lose their language and adopt new one? Albanian influence was not that big then.

As I said above while the region's history is obscure, we know that in regions where the Albanians did not constitute the majority, the Albanian language (I say Albanian even though the text does not clarify this as a fact but refers to it as a "language of its own") was widely spoken.

But the fact that this is an international forum is beside the point. While english is the lingua franca, so was Hellenic during antiquity and the Byzantine era. Under the logic of whoever speaks a specific language must be considered related to a specific ethnicity during the time of the Hellenistic and Byzantine eras, the Hellenes as an ethnicity should have been composed of several million people with total disregard to their true origins.

This is actually similar to Virginia Woolf's claims that the population of Athens was not related to the ancients and by doing so imply total alteration of the Hellenic population, because she, being taught the ancient form of the language (most probably under the Erasmic pronounciation) noticed that the people of Athens did not understand her when she spoke to them in the "language of Perikles".

You are argued your point for the reason that you fear Albs claiming these people or dont want to connect with Albs, but their origins are attested by others.

Fear that Albanians would claim them..
If you want to claim Botsaris, Boboulina or any single one of those that faught for the independence of Hellas, hell you're free to do so for all I care.
But just think how rediculous you'd look, when someone asks you why you find pride in the deeds of those that faught against and killed your true ancestors.

There was no such thing as Albanian during those times. Even the Turkish Arnavut comes from the Greek Arvanite. The Albanians in Italy call themselves Arberesh while the Croat Albs called themselves Arbanitasi. The Vlachs called Christian Albs "Arbanese". This is a universal thing. Are you telling me all these people did not have Alb origins but rather Greek one? Are you saying that these people are wrong and you are right?

Actually Albanians are refered to as separate people to the Arvanites, the term used to define them, was Illyrian. So no matter where the name derives from you still have to clarify who you're related to, the people which Byzantine texts refer to by the term "Illyrians" or to those they refer to as "Arvanites.
As you see its actually a two way street. If you insist on Arvanites= Albanians then you immediately alienate yourself to those refered to as Illyrians.

I dont expect to change your view, your too paranoid. But Ill just say that what you are arguing is not very much accepted in academic circles.

Paranoid, deluted.. OK.
Accepted or not, the so-called academic circles are still debating not only the Arvanites question but also the Albanian-Illyrian one. So untill they do come to definite conclusions I really don't see why my views are deemed more paranoid than yours are.

To end this, I'll just mention that when Berisa claimed that the Arvanites were an Albanian minority in Hellas, their rejection and fury to this statement was well recorded in all media. So you may claim them, but the truth of the issue is that they don't want anything to do with your version of their history.

[Theodosivs]

Did you read the article I brought from Hammond?

I see your point of logic but if we were to look into it again, then according to the way you think, then people with surnames similar to Habibakis, Kehagias, Zaimis, Pesmazoglou, Aslanis..etc just as the vast majority of Pontians must be of Turkish descent (if anyone can define what a Turk actually is) since their names are based on Turkish words, those with names like Karotsieris, Kasieris..etc should be of Italian descent for the same reason.. etc

Your talking about common names or words. Things like Kara. Hell in Alb there are also people with such names Cerciz. However they are adoptions of a dominant people. On top of it all, Turks were the dominant culture of Anatolia by then, and a heavily assimilating culture. The Turks had an empire, Albs did not.

I am talking about vernacular adoptions of a people without any real dominance over a cultural zone.

. But, we know that in 1322 Albanians did not constitute the majority in the South (specifically Durres) as it has been accounted for by Robert Elsie who is considered the authority on Albanian history. Interestingly enough, while according to Simon Fitzsimmons (who R.Elsie quotes), the Albanians were not the majority of the population and had only recently appeared in the area, their language seemed to have been widely spoken along the shores. This could be the reason you're looking for.

Yea, they also mention that these people were in a way assimilated in a city, they were the underlings, the barbarians. A people of little cultural significance.

If you insist on Arvanites= Albanians then you immediately alienate yourself to those refered to as Illyrians.

The Byzantines were classicalists. They looked to constantly connect people of a region with the people that lived there in antiquity. It's not whether they believed Albs were the Illyrians or not, they simply stated such because in the times of Herodutos and other Greek historians, the people living in the area of Albania were called the Illyrians. The same way the historians called Bulgarians "Pannonians". The world stays the same in their eyes.

But anyway, Bartholomeo Minio in his "Histories of Nauplion" (You can find it on the internet, great history) seems to assign no other name to the Arvanities then "Albanians".

Arvanities however is just the Greek vernacular of Arbanese, which in turn was the medieval name of Albanians. Like I said, every other people said the same. I gave you the examples. If you are now telling me that only "Greek Albanians" went by this name then you are fighting every other neighbor.

Under the logic of whoever speaks a specific language must be considered related to a specific ethnicity during the time of the Hellenistic and Byzantine eras, the Hellenes as an ethnicity should have been composed of several million people with total disregard to their true origins.

The actual Greek speakers of antiquity are actually very very limited to urban enviroments(if your talking about the Greek east), they were not too many. At least not compared to the latins. But this is besides the point. There is one major difference that separates the two, that is urbanization. Greeks were urbanized, the Arvanities/Albanians were not. They were an entirely rural people. That means they are the last to be assimilated.

How I still dont quite understand by this comment.

Here is an example of assimilation. For hundreds of years my grandmother's ancestors lived in the Greek speaking town of Narta near Vlora. The area was isolated and surrounded by Albanians. My grandmother decided to move to Vlore during her youth and became thuroughly Albanized. had she remained rural she would have kept her culture.

The same with the Arvanities. If they were "assimilated Greeks" then the Albanians would have had cultural control of the cities. The rural areas are last to be assimilated. The Arvanities did not come from Durres, or from Valona.

Sorry but no matter how you cut it, it's still balloney.

Not to mention the entire culture of the Arvanities is exactly like that of Albanians. The idea of the faras, the non-centralized villages, and in the old days it was semi-nomadic character.

I'll just mention that when Berisa claimed that the Arvanites were an Albanian minority in Hellas, their rejection and fury to this statement was well recorded in all media. So you may claim them, but the truth of the issue is that they don't want anything to do with your version of their history.

Sorry mate, it's not my version of history, it's you paranoid. I dont claim any of them, look at my first comment. They were people who gave their all for the Greek nation and idea.

The first statement is largely a product of the modern day social situation.

The Accounts of Bartolomeo Mineo: Administration of Nauplion
Article from Hammond that I posted

[Hermes]

In Durres albs were minority? May be. Durres at those times was a metropol of the empire. the greatest port in the west. Merchants and other kinds of persons were normal to live in such cities.What would u expect?

I just feel sorry for these ''greeks''called arvanites that had suffered so much and had lose their language in history,thnx God u are making them forget the ''forigner language''.

But we cant forget history and those Mideval documents of the Latin Lords calling tribes from North ( Albania) to populate entire empty areas of Greece. In those documents there are called specificly ''Arbanesis'', ''Albanoi'', ''Albanians''. they weren't just a train or a bus but hundred thousands people , that now as u say : their surnames are albanized or their language is a dialect of greek, pure propaganda, ill mentality.

So , as u say , there were Illyrians, Albanians, there are these ''arvanitis'' and so on.....????strange but there is nothing in common there....That are just THOUSANDS of similar names (let say all that that isnt greek or turk), 2 ''different'languages that if those are listen carefuly seem a pure dialect of each other......traditions and so on.......oh sorry i forgot what is the most important thing for you : the religion. Well u must know Oriental and Asiatic religions killed Hellenic culture , and the worse of that is that those has become trendy.But not for albanians, and that is what preocupate u most.

[Tsontos]

Hermes just relax this isnt network 54 and no one is attacking you. your above post was all over the place.

No one is saying arvanitika isnt a dialect of Albanian. the question is how did they come to speak the language. Like how did the Karamanlides (pure turkish surename) come to speak Turkish? No one not least the Turks ever claimed them as Turkish racially