Giorgios Kastriotis aka Gjerg Kastriot Skanderbeg

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by Theodosivs

The person who placed it on wiki copied it directly from that website. I have been trying to bring it to the attention of people on wiki but nobody has noticed so far.

-i is a suffix added to every Albanian male name. If it's Mehmet, we would say Mehmeti, if its Panagiot we say Panagioti. Arian is Ariani. etc. etc.

Next thing you will tell me that Panagioti is of Alb etymology

Yes and what and who exaclty is that website? why does it have articles about the political situation in Kosovo and why should we take its opionions on the authenticity of that seal seriously?

[Theodosivs]

The website is by a man named Bjørn Andersen. he is a sociologist/historian who also deals heavily in Albanian history and people. At that particular article he was discussing Ludvig Holberg who wrote a history of Scanderbeg in the 17th century that never went published.

Next thing you will tell me that Panagioti is of Alb etymology

No but its a name commonly used by orthodox christian albs.

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by Ervald

The Helmet

Skanderbeg’s helmet is made of white metal, adorned with a strip dressed in gold. On its top lies the head of a horned goat made of bronze, also dressed in gold. The bottom part bears a copper strip adorned with a monogram separated by rosettes * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). It is thought that the copper strip with the monogram is the work of the descendants of Skanderbeg and was placed there by them, as Skanderbeg never held any other title but “Lord of Albania” (Dominus Albaniae)


The first element which commands attention is the meaning and symbolism of the horned goat on the helmet. It is difficult to assess with certainty what the horned goat might signify. It might be explained by the cult of the wild goat, the symbol of the “zana” or goddess "Diana".Note: Dhi-ana; Lady of the Goats in Albanian. The 'Z', 'D', 'Th' shift is vey common like Zeus, Deus, Theos. There are signs indicating that the cult of the wild goat is very ancient. The Roman writer and historian of the I-II century A.D., S. Suetom Tanquilli (De Vita Caesarum, L.II, 12, 94.) writes that the Roman Emperor Augustus, after putting down the Illyrian revolt of Bato, cut a coin bearing the head of a horned goat to celebrate the victory.

There is another possible explanation with serious historical ramifications. According to a report by historian Shefqet Pllana, Sami Frasheri in his Kamus-al-Alam maintains that the wording "Dhu lKarnejn" (owner of the two horns) was an appellative attributed to Alexander the Great of Macedon, the very name which Skanderbeg bore in the Islamic form. This second explanation may be the truer, since the theory of the Macedonian-Albanian and Epirot-Albanian continuance is strong not only among Albanians but among all the peoples of Europe. This opinion agrees with the work of Marin Barleti who writes: “When the people saw all those young and brave men around Skanderbeg, then it was not hard to believe that the armies of [Sultan] Murat were so defeated by the Albanians. Indeed, the times when the star of Macedon shone brilliantly had returned, just as they seemed in those long forgotten times of Pyrrhus and Alexander."

At the request of the pre-WWII Albanian government, an identical copy of the helmet of Skanderbeg lies now in the National Museum of Tirana, Albania. The copy was manufactured by a talented Austrian master in 1937.

It keeps me highly amused everytime i read such nationalistic crap. Conveniently those who wrote these paragraphs, ignore the two-horned helmet was common not only in the greek world but partly in mediteranean (Assyro-Babylonians, Egyptians, etc), used mostly from kings/leaders of army. Even Agamemnon in Iliad wears such a helmet. Of course Alexander wore a two-horned helmet but what these loonies forget to mention is this helmet with the goat horns was a symbol of Macedonian Kings prior to Alexander. Afterall Macedonians named their city Aigae (in greek 'goat'). As for the "Macedonian-Albanian continuance" acknowledged strongly by most people in Europe, there it lies why noone takes you serious guys anywhere. Just for the record about two-horned helmets. In Louvre exists a full-sized Greek helmet of gold, having the two distinctive horns (Daremberg et Saglio, p. 1534). Generally if anyone wanted to have a real scientific input on the issue, he could start from the Naples museum and Louvre where there are lots of horned helmets, among them several ancient Greek bronze bearing a pair of horns. In Cyprus archaeologists discovered a religious building, called the sanctuary of the 'horned God', named after from a solid bronze statue found inside with a god depicted as a young man wearing a helmet with two horns.

[Ervald]

Originally Posted by akritas

Ervald welcome to the macedoniaontheweb.

Personally I am not from those that we support Greek or Albania origin because the lack of the historical sources.All the historical sources mentioned him as Epirotan.One from your historical argument is this that came from Barleti History.Below is the front page of his biography. that I took it from your source. I think in 1968 Albanian authorities published a mail stamp with this pic.[/left]

So my question if there is in that biography any reference that mention him as Albanian ? As I know he mentioned him only as Epirotan.

As I said,

His father was the lord or how else you can say it of that region "Kruja".

Not everything is writen well in Wikipedia and I dont really trust it but somehow the most of the text is acurate.

The 2 headed flag didnt came from Gjergji himself, it was his father's legacy of kruja castle long ago ebfoer the turks.

Now his father was from Epirus, but as you know epirus had Albanians, therefore if his father was greek he wouldnt go in north albania and make his kingdom. And he would make that region greek.. like for example. Can I be your greek president? ofcourse not.

And last of all he spoke our language, fought for our people cause all his life in the ottoman army he was thinking of his father's words "Remember this land, the mountains, this is your homeland, fight for it" before the turks took him as a child.

We Albanians dont have any tedency for taking others land and we are not very good with propaganda.
You should focus more to the sllavs who are the worse people who came and toook mine and ur lands

[akritas]

@Ervald
I was specific in my previous post.Most famous Historical sources quoted him as Epirotan and not as Albanian or Greek with Slav mother.

Thats why I put my question regarding Barleti Historia, and of course I didnt see any answer from you.

As about the double-head Eagle is a known Byzantine Symbol and originated from Pontus. After the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, it was used by the successor states besides Epiris and also from Nicaea.

As about the language also this is mean nothing.Language is not indicate ethincity in multicultural societes in the medieval and modern era.Actually dont forget that spoken also Turkish, Greek and Latin very well.

Now for the propaganda( history I think that you mean) all the Balkan states make theirs own efforts regarding to steal history. And they focus in the ancient one.Any way is not consider this thread

@Theodosivs
I have also and other sources that mentioned him as Greek like
-Italin A. Salvi, 1718
-British C. Randall,1810
-French Paganel (Histoire de Scanderbey), 1855

In who is right regarding the origin in my opinion the answer is given by Kastriotis with the known letter to the Taranta Hegemon(Antony), when clearly identify him self as Epirotan.

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by Ervald

Now his father was from Epirus, but as you know epirus had Albanians, therefore if his father was greek he wouldnt go in north albania and make his kingdom. And he would make that region greek.. like for example. Can I be your greek president? ofcourse not.

Come on this is clearly specious reasoning. Apart from the fact that ethnicity was not the foremost issue in such a time. The Despotate of Epirus founded after the 4th crusade stretched from the gulf of the Peloponesse to Northern Albania. Kastriotis's family's state was the successor of this state.

Greek lords during Byzantine times ruled and had their political centres in many places where the population was predominantly Armenian/ Bulgarian/ Serbian or what have you. In any case people had less of a say and religion was by far the more important factor; thats why the Albanians, Greeks and Slavs rallied around Kastriotis.

The 2 headed flag didnt came from Gjergji himself, it was his father's legacy of kruja castle long ago ebfoer the turks.

Exactly, it was the war flag of the Byzantine Empire. The Despotate of Epirus considered itself the successor of Byzantium like Trebzoid and Nicea etc

And last of all he spoke our language, fought

Well you would hope he spoke Albanian when Kroia was and is predominantly Albanian. But he also spoke Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Turkish.

We Albanians dont have any tedency for taking others land and we are not very good with propaganda.
You should focus more to the sllavs who are the worse people who came and toook mine and ur lands

History is not the kind of thing you can just 'trade off'. Albanians have been as bad as Slavs in terms of propaganda. ie Alexander the Great, Pyrros the Great etc etc

[Theodosivs]

I need to see the context inwhich those particular authors wrote that. Your not giving me an arguement nor evidence, your just giving me names I can't do anything with.

In who is right regarding the origin in my opinion the answer is given by Kastriotis with the known letter to the Taranta Hegemon(Antony), when clearly identify him self as Epirotan.

Yes, which is use interchangably with Albanian.

As about the double-head Eagle is a known Byzantine Symbol and originated from Pontus. After the Latin conquest of Constantinople in 1204, it was used by the successor states besides Epiris and also from Nicaea.

Just like the Serbs, Russians and the various other groups related to the empire, Albanians adopted the Byzantine flag. All the major Albanian figures did: Dukagjini, Thopia, Zacharjia, Theodore Bua, Arianits. etc. They defined with the empire

Kastriotis's family's state was the successor of this state.

Kastrioti never claimed to be an inheritor or a successor of the Despotate. Various other lords had far more claim to it then he did. The Arianit family did aswell. Kastrioti was simply a feudal lord who became the head of a league of Albanian lords.

Greek lords during Byzantine times ruled and had their political centres in many places where the population was predominantly Armenian/ Bulgarian/ Serbian or what have you. In any case people had less of a say and religion was by far the more important factor; thats why the Albanians, Greeks and Slavs rallied around Kastriotis.

Neither Greeks nor Serbs rallied around Kastriot. When Scanderbeg asked George Brankovic for aid against the Turks, Brankovic declined.
The region that was his kingdom was purely middle to northern Albania. Territories that did not include any greek populations.

[Hermes]

About Despotate of Epirus and greeks, joined to the claims about the greek ancestry of G.Kastrioti>>>We know that an Albanian feudal/prince/despot reigned in the center of Epirus before the times of G.K....his name was Gjin Bue Shpata....just to see the parts of the name its clear he was Albanian.So was Skanderbeg. About the 2-head flag too many nobil families had it for their symbol (in diferent ways).Arianiti Family too.As they were (princes)they did many marriages with other nobil Families and we know that wasnt important ethnicity but the polical-social possition.
Now by the otoman Defter (names and families who paid taxes) its easy to know what ethnicity these population in Epirus were before anyone of them turned in muslim.We find in majority number names like...Dede,Gjoke,Gjin,Gjon,Gjergj,Mehilli,Merkuri .........and too many other....strange that greeks used such names at those times.
Never them were the suddits of a greek Prince.I dont know if there was a greek entite at those times beside of that religious(territorial and linguistic having present that Greek language was the oficial and cultural language of the Byzantine Empire(like latin) ,is there any prove of that?
I think that today greeks have too many reasons to claim the north of their actual space...without that their history would be only a derivate action of the history. All comes from north .....in south just nothing.
From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).They still speak their language,its just Albanian not a Greek dialect.They hadn't an Alphabet at those times,their churches were in Greek letters and they didnt care to write history they made it.Now suddenly those are all Greek.Propaganda of Megali Idea made it.
Never in Kastrioti History was mentioned...."for his greeks, for Greece,Hellas and so on" just anytime as Greek because all orthodoxs was called like that,catholics like Latins and than muslims like Turks.....
One thing is sure : that today Greeks even if they are "Hellenic'',Arvanitis or else.....that they speak oficialy the same language of the oficial one of the B.Empire(the reasons are wellknown) enough diferent from antic greek, but not all Empire was greek by ethnicity.....Megali Idea is the same with the NECHTERTANIA of the serbs?????? (it claims the Great Serbia even in Thesaloniki and those coasts) Yes they are in their form and mentality.For 150 years they had made enough to give people hate and violence.Genocide and deportations has been their rule.There was no way to make an albanian land> serb or greek.

[Ptolemy]

In the future just post the...collection of your thoughts in this thread. You will save our time to copy/paste your posts each time.

[Amarantos]

Originally Posted by Hermes

From 100 heroes of greek indipendece(1821) 90 were arvanitis (Arberesh,Arber>Alban,Albanians).

Ωπα,κοψε κατι=cut something.Even if 99 out of 100 heroes of the Greek Revolution were arvanites,vlachs or whatsoever and they were arvanitophone,vlachophone,slavophone apart from that 1 out of the 100 who spoke greek,ALL of them fought for the indipendence of the Greek State.Not for the Albanian State or other.There are persons ,for example vlachophones, who donated great part of their property if not all of it to the Greek State constructing hospitals,libraries,schools,halls IN Greece.Why didn't they donate them to Albania ,for example?

Originally Posted by Hermes

Megali Idea is the same with the NECHTERTANIA of the serbs?????? (it claims the Great Serbia even in Thesaloniki and those coasts) Yes they are in their form and mentality.For 150 years they had made enough to give people hate and violence.Genocide and deportations has been their rule.There was no way to make an albanian land> serb or greek.

Greece is the only state that does not have claims on other countries in the region.Is the only economically advanced country in the balkans and it is practicaly helping all the other countries ,and their citizens, to evolve and have a better life.Your analysis on the megali idea issue ,of one century ago, is rather simplistic and partial.Since you talk about "Genocide and deportations" why don't you speak of those that the greek people suffered too?I have heard for example that once there were Greek people leaving in a place called in the past Eastern Rumelia.Weren't they deported?But you see serious people look the facts based on international treaties (population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria in this case) ,feel sorry about the sorrow and the pain of the people involved and look to the future so as to have a peacefull life,they and their children.