Giorgios Kastriotis aka Gjerg Kastriot Skanderbeg

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Andrew

This map was made by the French in the early 1900s , when we knew nothing about genetics , haplogoroups etc ...they could only evaluate the distribution of languages.In other 3 maps I have it shows the same thing ..a big "gap" between Albania and Atiica & Peloponnesos.
One could say to explain it that the Albanian migrators moved directly to Attica and Peloponnesos without leaving people in the way. But if that was the case then Attica & Peloponnesos should of been "Yellow" in the E-V13 map.

I knew and that's why it struck me hard. So there were Albanians pretty much all over in Greece (judging by DNA) but those Arvanite areas were the only non-Albo (still DNA wise.)

After centuries of talking it ...that creates the special connection. You know the proverb "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". If they were talking it for 500 years it becames "family language". To give you an example I happen to have a pontian friend whos father was born in Greece by pontian emigrants , he's about 60 and still can't speak clearly Greek proper , in the house they continue speaking pontin greek , even their dog "Lady" knows the orders in pontian .

Language is the weak point in your argument unless you're suggesting that genetic Greeks went to Albania and returned after xxx years. But then, why are we virtually identical when all dna types are added?

Greeks populated Albania
Albanians populated Greece
A mix of two or just a mix of whatever escaped as slavs got here.

The problem is that Albania only offers mountains. The fields you see today were swamps. Kosova on the other hand is different

[Grace]

regarding the drop North of Kosovo: Serbs did threw out and kill tens and tens of thousands of Albanians from Nis and surrounding ares in 1878 or so. Most were 100% Albanians so the results might be artificially skewed. Those that still show were probably slavicized generations ago and were not "Turks."

Turns out Albanians went everywhere

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

I knew and that's why it struck me hard. So there were Albanians pretty much all over in Greece (judging by DNA) but those Arvanite areas were the only non-Albo (still DNA wise.)

As I said earlier Grace ..Albos have E-V13 hegh , but they don't have it exclusively !!!!

Originally Posted by Grace

Language is the weak point in your argument unless you're suggesting that genetic Greeks went to Albania and returned after xxx years. But then, why are we virtually identical when all dna types are added?
The problem is that Albania only offers mountains. The fields you see today were swamps. Kosova on the other hand is different

Watch this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Epirus

note:

The Despotate was founded in 1205 by Michael Komnenos Doukas, a cousin of the Byzantine emperors Isaac II Angelos and Alexios III Angelos. At first, Michael allied with Boniface of Montferrat, but having lost Morea (Peloponnese) to the Franks at the battle of the Olive Grove of Koundouros, he went to Epirus, where he considered himself the Byzantine governor of the old province of Nicopolis and revolted against Boniface. Epirus soon became the new home of many Greek refugees from Constantinople, Thessaly, and the Peloponnese, and Michael was described as a second Noah, rescuing men from the Latin flood. John X Kamateros, the Patriarch of Constantinople, did not consider him a legitimate successor and instead joined Theodore I Laskaris in Nicaea; Michael instead recognized the authority of Pope Innocent III over Epirus, cutting ties to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Henry of Flanders demanded that Michael submit to the Latin Empire, which he did, at least nominally, by allowing his daughter to marry Henry's brother Eustace in 1209. Michael did not honour this alliance, assuming that mountainous Epirus would be mostly impenetrable by any Latins with whom he made and broke alliances. Meanwhile, Boniface's relatives from Montferrat made claims to Epirus as well, and in 1210 Michael allied with the Venetians and attacked Boniface's Kingdom of Thessalonica. Michael was excessively cruel to his prisoners, in some cases crucifying Latin priests.[citation needed] Pope Innocent III excommunicated him in response. Henry forced Michael into a renewed nominal alliance later that year.

Michael however turned his attention to capturing other strategically important Latin-held towns, including Larissa and Dyrrhachium. He also took control of the ports on the Gulf of Corinth. In 1214 he captured Corcyra from Venice, but was assassinated later that year and was succeeded by his half-brother Theodore

Do you understand the role of the Mountains and Swamps of Albania and Epeirus now ..Impenetrable !!!!

I happe nto be from a swamp territory in Macedonia tha tmaintained it's helenophonic character ...simply because no one else wanted to settle in the Swamp

I have t ogo now ..I'll be back in a couple oh hours ...See you later !!!

[Grace]

<< As I said earlier Grace ..Albos have E-V13 hegh , but they don't have it exclusively !!!!

No but it's pretty much Albanian, and that's why we're using the map. If Greeks have it too--and I know they do, I mean in large quantities--who don't the Hydra people have it then?
The negative correlation on the hydra islands tells me something is wrong.
It's known that Albos left Albania for greener pastures. Why wouldn't they be in the place "Albanians" went? Without knowing how many samples were from Hydra etc I couldn't tell.

Possibilities: no samples from that area.
Maybe the line that went there was much less in V13 and much more in Rb or J2, as you can see Alb south has that already (or at least less V13)

We can tell that not many Kosovars came to Greece . Could their higher than normal V13 be due to genetic drift or seclusion?

You do not pass down your language (despite the enormous pressures they have had to forget it) to your future generations unless it's very special, something that connects you to something. Arvanitika is useless otherwise, and in fact it's a huge negative (discrimination + a pain to pass it on to others.) Friends might talk for a while until they die, just for old times sake but to pass to 4-5 generations (150+ years) there must be more.

As i said, get their DNA and you might have an interesting article or paper.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

<< As I said earlier Grace ..Albos have E-V13 hegh , but they don't have it exclusively !!!!

No but it's pretty much Albanian, and that's why we're using the map. If Greeks have it too--and I know they do, I mean in large quantities--who don't the Hydra people have it then?
The negative correlation on the hydra islands tells me something is wrong.
It's known that Albos left Albania for greener pastures. Why wouldn't they be in the place "Albanians" went? Without knowing how many samples were from Hydra etc I couldn't tell.

Possibilities: no samples from that area.
Maybe the line that went there was much less in V13 and much more in Rb or J2, as you can see Alb south has that already (or at least less V13)

We can tell that not many Kosovars came to Greece . Could their higher than normal V13 be due to genetic drift or seclusion?

You do not pass down your language (despite the enormous pressures they have had to forget it) to your future generations unless it's very special, something that connects you to something. Arvanitika is useless otherwise, and in fact it's a huge negative (discrimination + a pain to pass it on to others.) Friends might talk for a while until they die, just for old times sake but to pass to 4-5 generations (150+ years) there must be more.

As i said, get their DNA and you might have an interesting article or paper.

Grace , Cruciani was based on 5293 blood samples all over the west balkans

About the language ...with the population exchange back in the 1922 ..we had Greeks that spoke turkish ...why were they Turkophon ??? Why do we had Slavophon Greeks in North West Macedonia , why do we have Albanophon Greeks fro mthe despotate of Epeirus ???
..language selection is a matter of necessity and adjustment in the enviroment. since I don't know Arvanitika I can't tellif it was albanian proper or a mixed Albano-greek language ..I don't know if you know something.

In my home region during Ottoman empire ALL the "zaptiedes" (policemen) were muslims Albanians ...I believe they were more of them in Epeirus serving the Bays ...that's why people had to choose the Albanian language ..passing for Albos could guarantee survival !!!

[Grace]

actually, at least, Ali Pasha had Catholics (from the north) and local Orthodox as well. I read that most of the people (klephts and armatoloi) in your Indy war either fought for him or against him and his downfall was the fact that he had betrayed people and very few trusted his word.

Ali Pasha also even adopted the Greek language, opened schools, and wanted to become some sort of King of Albanians and Greeks. But before him I don't know. With what I read about him, Dumas and André Gerolymatos (a very well respected Greek scholar) http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg...9-ddggpAHBGb6U

religion or ethinicity meant nothing to him, it was just a way to get power and money. He was much harsher on Albanians who gave him a hard time than Greeks. He wanted order and got it. Byron says that out of his 100+ guards only 4-5 went to pray and it was a non-event, no one looked at anyone and even they prayed silently.

Ok, why are the Arvanites different though? Negative correlation...

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

actually, at least, Ali Pasha had Catholics (from the north) and local Orthodox as well. I read that most of the people (klephts and armatoloi) in your Indy war either fought for him or against him and his downfall was the fact that he had betrayed people and very few trusted his word.

Ali Pasha also even adopted the Greek language, opened schools, and wanted to become some sort of King of Albanians and Greeks. But before him I don't know. With what I read about him, Dumas and André Gerolymatos (a very well respected Greek scholar) http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg...9-ddggpAHBGb6U

religion or ethinicity meant nothing to him, it was just a way to get power and money. He was much harsher on Albanians who gave him a hard time than Greeks. He wanted order and got it. Byron says that out of his 100+ guards only 4-5 went to pray and it was a non-event, no one looked at anyone and even they prayed silently.

Ok, why are the Arvanites different though? Negative correlation...

I can't say why Grace I just mentioned you something that I noted that's all ..as I said before ..before reading Cruciani & Bird I was almost certain tha tthe Arvanites were hellenized Albanians ..it was the E-V13 that changed my mind ...

No you already said twice tha tAli Pasha was good with Greeks ..one of the most respectable scholars in my opinion is Vakalopoulos ..and he says:

At this period there were 300 Greek villages in the countryside around Véroia; but their population had begun to decline, owing to continual emigration to Asia Minor in consequence of Ali Pasha's oppressions [1]. Thus the Greek element grew weaker in some areas, and it is possible that Slavs moved in.

Why did Greeks started to emigrate when Ali Pasha expanded to Macedonia ??

[Grace]

I actually said that (or meant to say) he was equally brutal, the area was infested with criminal scum and he did restore a normalcy, a brutal one but Ali was more predictable. That's how he got noticed by the sultan.

He did kill some 700 Albanian males in one day and it was so bad that two of his groups fighting with him refused to obey the orders to shoot them. He found someone to do it eventually, just as he found a Souliote to betray his own people.

They did fear him of course, and I don't blame them, but that's what kept people in line and commerce flowing. (I read Galt too on this.)

If I meant to say that he was a nice guy, I didn't express what I meant correctly. I just don't think he had a particular beef with a group...generally speaking that is. If the Suli was Muslim, they still would have suffered the same fate, as all the local Muslim /Albanian lords did.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

I actually said that (or meant to say) he was equally brutal

That seems reasonable and fair enough