Giorgios Kastriotis aka Gjerg Kastriot Skanderbeg

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Euklid

But where is this distinction? In File 8?? I didnt see anything.

Nsminc my grandmother from my mothers side is perhaps an Arvanite.

She has an Arvanite surname Flampouri at least i think.

And i always remember my grand-father callin her Arvanitiko Kefali---->stubborn.

She has no idea of her roots and she has no recollection of another language other than Greek, and it hasnt come to her that she might be descended from Arvanites.

However for some reason this surname doesnt sound Greek to my ears, except of course for the flampouro, to enetiko.

A little bit late but i saw this post only now,and i can say that your grandmother is surely an Arvanite.Flamuri is a common name and surname in Albania,it means Flag.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

several problems with your thesis:
1. It's obvious that Northern Alb has more EV. If Albs moved from southern Alb to Greece, they are less likely to carry the EV line and more likely to have the other ones which are present in Greece. Right? I Think Kosovo owes the larger amount due to isolation, you have to cross quite a few mountains to reach there. People close to Greece have lower EV and the same people are more likely to migrate.

Let me show you my point in the maps:


[url=http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=505&i=birdev13iv1.jpg][IMG]




Watch the E-V13 distribution :

-Kosovo & North Albania ("orange") lets say (+5)
-South Albania ("yelow") lets say (+4)
-Epeirus "dark green" lets say (+3)
-Thessaly & Macedonia "light Green" (+2)
- Boetia ,Attica Eastern Peloponnesus "gray" (+1)
...................
Watch the regular transition from +5 to +1 ...ok ??

Now let's go to the language map , back in the late 1800s:

-N&S Albania & Kosovo "Albanophon stongholds" lets make it (+3)
-Epeirus small Albanophonia ..let's make it (+1)
-Thessaly and Macedonian none Albanophonia lets make it (0)
-Boetia, Attica, Eastern Peloponnese strong Albanophonia ..lets make it (+3)

Now we have two variation raws and we want to find out their "correlation" - I don't know if you're familiar with the term frm statistics -

(5,5,4,3,2,1)
(3,3,3,1,0,3)

r= 0,430007

Now in statistics a correlation is probable when r >0,6 and almost certain when r > 0,8

We have only r= 0,43 !!! Which is classified as relatively unprobable

Do you know here is the problem ?...it is the fact that Thessaly and Macedonia were not Albanophon regions , but had more E-V13 than Attica , Boetia and Eastern Peloponnesus ...that is what destroys the Albanian migration theory and renders more probable the acquision of the Albanian tongue by Greeks.

Originally Posted by Grace

2. Suppose you, a Greek, move to Germany. You and your friends. You learn the language blah blah blah. Why would you speak it in Greece, after you all return, and why would you pass it to generation after generation (I'm aware it's fading now, but there is pressure to conform and a long time has passed since immigration)?
You are GREEK and Greek is your native language. You know German because you had to in order to work and communicate, but now in Greece, all speak Greek and German is not something you need to care for anymore.

Ok lets go back in the 1500 AD..where there are no Schools for language ok ??
- I'm greek that start to speak albanian and I transfer this language to my kids ..and they to theirs ..etc... After few centuries EVEN IF GREEK schools started to exist ..the Arvanitic language will be spoken to house , by grampas etc and in every day communications ..that's why it stayed alive.

Don't forget that earlier you claimed that 45% of Greek population was albanogenic.

Originally Posted by Grace

So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.

Now 45% is a big number and can't be hide ...this means that we should have more "Yellow" areas in the Greek Soil ...or at least ALL Greece should of been "Yellow and Dark Green" which is not the case in the E-V13 map !!!

Lets make some math:

If there was 45% "yellow" (+4) mixed with 55% "light Green" (+2) then the result should of been +2,9 (average) ..that is whole Greece should of been "dark Green" (+3) This is not the case here.

[Grace]

>> Do you know here is the problem ?...it is the fact that Thessaly and Macedonia were not Albanophon regions , but had more E-V13 than Attica , Boetia and Eastern Peloponnesus ...that is what destroys the Albanian migration theory and renders more probable the acquision of the Albanian tongue by Greeks.


something is missing. If albs brought that to Greece, and it's in substantial enough numbers, than how come they didn't show in the census? Not sure of they migrated from different parts (i.e. Hydra etc from one area) the rest from others.


Your language case is not convincing. Why speak it till now or at least in the 1970's unless there's a special connection?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

>> Do you know here is the problem ?...it is the fact that Thessaly and Macedonia were not Albanophon regions , but had more E-V13 than Attica , Boetia and Eastern Peloponnesus ...that is what destroys the Albanian migration theory and renders more probable the acquision of the Albanian tongue by Greeks.


something is missing. If albs brought that to Greece, and it's in substantial enough numbers, than how come they didn't show in the census? Not sure of they migrated from different parts (i.e. Hydra etc from one area) the rest from others.

I haven't understand your point please elaborate ...

[Grace]

Large map: why don't we see any other area marked as Albanian except those that have no EV?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

Large map: why don't we see any other area marked as Albanian except those that have no EV?

This map was made by the French in the early 1900s , when we knew nothing about genetics , haplogoroups etc ...they could only evaluate the distribution of languages.In other 3 maps I have it shows the same thing ..a big "gap" between Albania and Atiica & Peloponnesos.
One could say to explain it that the Albanian migrators moved directly to Attica and Peloponnesos without leaving people in the way. But if that was the case then Attica & Peloponnesos should of been "Yellow" in the E-V13 map.

Originally Posted by Grace

Your language case is not convincing. Why speak it till now or at least in the 1970's unless there's a special connection?

After centuries of talking it ...that creates the special connection. You know the proverb "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". If they were talking it for 500 years it becames "family language". To give you an example I happen to have a pontian friend whos father was born in Greece by pontian emigrants , he's about 60 and still can't speak clearly Greek proper , in the house they continue speaking pontin greek , even their dog "Lady" knows the orders in pontian .

[TirAlb]

Andrew i don't really understand your calculation,but why a 18% area have a only a +2 and a o% area +1,and a 40% area +5.The difference in rate is always the same (20%) but in units is respetively 3 an 1.As i said i don't really understand what you exactly did and how r was calculated,so what im saying is just an (maybe wrong) intuition
-Another thing you cant compare the two maps,the first describes a continous distribution of the genes,and the second a scattered distribution of the population.
-Also an interesting note:the distribution of the gene north of Kosova and south of it.Its very different no?However i don't see the problem,it just proves that populations always mixed together,greeks with Albanians as well,Arvanites were south Albanian emigrants an the difference,beetwen south Greece and south Albanian is not that big.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Andrew i don't really understand your calculation,but why a 18% area have a only a +2 and a o% area +1,and a 40% area +5.The difference in rate is always the same (20%) but in units is respetively 3 an 1.As i said i don't really understand what you exactly did and how r was calculated,so what im saying is just an (maybe wrong) intuition
-Another thing you cant compare the two maps,the first describes a continous distribution of the genes,and the second a scattered distribution of the population.

TirAlb we can do the calculations with the exact numbers ..I did a rapid calculation posting arbitrary units per each colour.

My basic thesis is that: If there was a great scale migration from Albania then the E-V13 should of shown it ..reaching till Attica and the Peloponese which is not the case.

Further more the "monotony" (since you've made smath in university you get it) of the distributions is not the same.

The gene distribution reduces continuesly in a "smooth" way ...almost LINEARLY , yet the Albanophonia is motre like a "PARABOLA" .. Heigh in Albania , small in Epeirus , zero in Thessaly & Macedonia , again HEIGH in Attica ..tht's why I speak of no correlation.

[QUOT=TirAlb]-Also an interesting note:the distribution of the gene north of Kosova and south of it.Its very different no?However i don't see the problem,it just proves that populations always mixed together,greeks with Albanians as well,Arvanites were south Albanian emigrants an the difference,beetwen south Greece and south Albanian is not that big.[/quote]

Yes you're right north of Kosova the distributions exaustes itself more quickly and I thingh it's because of the Coming of the Slavs. The Slavic R1a1 hits MAX in Belgrade , where E-V13 hits bottom !!!

Anyway I'm not saying that E-V13 is specific only of the Albanians. It just indicates the neolithic population from Central Balkans .Since both proto-Greeks and proto-Albnanians passed from there in their migrations to their final homeplaces they obtained some fraction of that population. The Greeks later found in Greece a "local" pop of J2 and mixed with them also that's why they have more J2 and less E-V13 than the Albanians..

Now I'll re-make my calculations eith the real numbers ok %E-V13:

Kosovo>North Albania>South alb>Epeir>Thess&Mak>Boet&Attic%east Pel

E-V13 : (43,36,25,21,18,11)
Albanophony : let's name +3 absolute Albph , +2 very, +1 little , 0 zero ok ?
....(3,3,3,1,0,3) ok ?

let's see wha tExcel shows us : r = 0,410211 Do the calculations at your PC ...not very different from the 0,430007 , interestingly even smaller correlation !!!.

The whole "mathematical" problem is the NEGATIVE CORRELATION between E-V13 and Albanophony in Attica (low E-V13 and heigh Albph) and Thessaly & Macedonia (0 Albph & medium E-V13)

[TirAlb]

Indeed the biggest problem in your calculation is the second,set that of the populations.

....(3,3,3,1,0,3),You can't give Boet&Attic%east Pel a 3,that region wasn't a 3 perhaps not even a 1,also 200years ago,none claims that,Epir also is not a 3,even south Albania and Kosova is not a full three.than there are a lot of other variables that need to be considered,for example,we have to consider the modern movements of the population inside the greek territory,of the fyromian and Albanian as well.The correct percentage of Albanians and Greeks in greece and Albania,today and in the past,population density,so the result of that calculation is going to be wrong no metter how.
It just shows that Genetics can help history,only if it is used carefully .

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Indeed the biggest problem in your calculation is the second,set that of the populations.

....(3,3,3,1,0,3),You can't give Boet&Attic%east Pel a 3,that region wasn't a 3 perhaps not even a 1,also 200years ago,none claims that,Epir also is not a 3,even south Albania and Kosova is not a full three.than there are a lot of other variables that need to be considered,for example,we have to consider the modern movements of the population inside the greek territory,of the fyromian and Albanian as well.The correct percentage of Albanians and Greeks in greece and Albania,today and in the past,population density,so the result of that calculation is going to be wrong no metter how.
It just shows that Genetics can help history,only if it is used carefully .

I've made he calculations on the "albanophony" based on the french map of 1900.

If you see Alb & Kosova are full light blue like Attica , instead Epeirus is a "mix" of "light" and "dark blue" indicating i suppose that the albanophonic fraction in Epeirus was smaller than the one in Attica &Pel.