Giorgios Kastriotis aka Gjerg Kastriot Skanderbeg

[Grace]

--Is Albania a newly created nation????? in the 1800's???? Please help me finnish my research...And understand things clearer...Thanks.

nation vs people. Is there a Kurdistan? If the entire Western World and Russia had not helped you in Navarino, would Greece have been a state in the 1820-30's? Had the Brits not given you the islands, would they be yours? Don't be too sarcastic...you got help, and a lot of it.

The idea that Skenderbeg, is Greek because he used the name "Epiriote" which (as a place) might have been part Greek 2000 years before he wrote that is hilarious. And why isn't his nephew, the traitor, a Greek? Here you go:
Hamziotis Kastriotis. They are from the same family....

Why don't you guys write a paper and see if anyone publishes it. So far they seem to think that he is Albanian. You will be famous in a very short time.

[Truth Bearer]

Originally Posted by Peace Lover

1- The seal isn't original , but a Danish copy , of two centuries after Alexander !
2- In the Seal was said :Alexander king of Romans and ruler of Turks , Albanians , Serbs and Bulgarians !
3- Alexander was Catholic !
4- This explaine " King of Romans " , in half-life : Roman = Catholic , Greek = Orthodox , Epirotic = Albanian , Serve = Serbian etc.
5- Alexander army ! (Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus).

Iskander was Orthodox then became a Muslim then back to Orthodoxy and then again towards the end he converted to Cathlocism......Come on you Albo's know the history of yr one and only hero........

[Truth Bearer]

Originally Posted by Grace

--Is Albania a newly created nation????? in the 1800's???? Please help me finnish my research...And understand things clearer...Thanks.

nation vs people. Is there a Kurdistan? If the entire Western World and Russia had not helped you in Navarino, would Greece have been a state in the 1820-30's? Had the Brits not given you the islands, would they be yours? Don't be too sarcastic...you got help, and a lot of it.

The idea that Skenderbeg, is Greek because he used the name "Epiriote" which (as a place) might have been part Greek 2000 years before he wrote that is hilarious. And why isn't his nephew, the traitor, a Greek? Here you go:
Hamziotis Kastriotis. They are from the same family....

Why don't you guys write a paper and see if anyone publishes it. So far they seem to think that he is Albanian. You will be famous in a very short time.

Irrelevant about a nation we as Greeks have been around for a long long time..Tell me Grace how long have the Albo's been around??Where can you find any evidence about an Albanian people??

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

Irrelevant about a nation we as Greeks have been around for a long long time..Tell me Grace how long have the Albo's been around??Where can you find any evidence about an Albanian people??

you really don't want to start that "we." Do you know that 45% of your "we" was Albanian? And then more Albanians migrated there. Of course I am talking about Slavs, Vlachs etc.

The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1).

So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

You may search for the papers they cite if you don't trust.
Retrospectively, you may call them anything, but they came from Albania and had zero (or as much as me) to do with ancient Greece. Ancient Greece was established a long time ago.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

you really don't want to start that "we." Do you know that 45% of your "we" was Albanian? And then more Albanians migrated there. Of course I am talking about Slavs, Vlachs etc.

The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1).

So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

You may search for the papers they cite if you don't trust.
Retrospectively, you may call them anything, but they came from Albania and had zero (or as much as me) to do with ancient Greece. Ancient Greece was established a long time ago.

One question that bothers me Grace on the origin of the Arvanites is this :

The most "Arvanitik" regions of Greece in the late 1800s was Beotia , Attica and Eastern Peloponnesus right ???

Now since you mentioned Bird and Cruciani and their researches on the E-V13 haplogroup I ask you :

Kosovars have 43% of E-V13 and in the map they are "orange"
Albanians have 33% of E-V13 and in the map are "yelow"
Boetia ,Attica and Eastern Peloponnesus have only 11% (!!!) and in the map are "gray" . Interestingly the rest Greek soil is "Green" with values of E-V13 around 20%.

Now Grace , it turns out that the most Arvanitophonic regions of Greece are negatively related geneticaly with the Albanians in respect to E-V13 measurements. Check it out for your Self...

..After Cruciani & Bird I'm convinced that the Arvanites were Albanophons of Greek stock and not geneticaly Albanians. At least E-V13 says so.

The next thing you'll ask is why did they turned into Albanophons ?? Since the Turks came in the Balkans there were certain advantages on presenting yourself as albanian , no ??

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Andrew

One question that bothers me Grace on the origin of the Arvanites is this :

The most "Arvanitik" regions of Greece in the late 1800s was Beotia , Attica and Eastern Peloponnesus right ???

Now since you mentioned Bird and Cruciani and their researches on the E-V13 haplogroup I ask you :

Kosovars have 43% of E-V13 and in the map they are "orange"
Albanians have 33% of E-V13 and in the map are "yelow"
Boetia ,Attica and Eastern Peloponnesus have only 11% (!!!) and in the map are "gray" . Interestingly the rest Greek soil is "Green" with values of E-V13 around 20%.

Now Grace , it turns out that the most Arvanitophonic regions of Greece are negatively related geneticaly with the Albanians in respect to E-V13 measurements. Check it out for your Self...

..After Cruciani & Bird I'm convinced that the Arvanites were Albanophons of Greek stock and not geneticaly Albanians. At least E-V13 says so.

The next thing you'll ask is why did they turned into Albanophons ?? Since the Turks came in the Balkans there were certain advantages on presenting yourself as albanian , no ??

>> The next thing you'll ask is why did they turned into Albanophons ?? Since the Turks came in the Balkans there were certain advantages on presenting yourself as albanian , no

Actually, IIRC becoming an Orthodox was preferable to being catholic to the Sultan and many switched. Your church was in excellent terms with the Sultan. Now with history rewritten, it may not seem, but the Sultan trusted Greeks probably even more (he didn't want Muslims to learn foreign languages) and Greece did quite well, relatively speaking under him. The Sultan essentially wrote Albania off: people too crazy, land too barren, can't collect taxes, leave them alone in their misery.

A lot of this migration appears to have been before Islam was introduced. In the 18-19th century they really turned the screws and people converted, at least nominally.

As per DNA: did they disperse? I am not sure. I think we can agree that Albania had nothing to offer to migrants, especially back then. Mostly mountains and swaps. People could flee persecution, but Turks did not use the "covert or die" for the most part.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Grace

As per DNA: did they disperse? I am not sure. I think we can agree that Albania had nothing to offer to migrants, especially back then. Mostly mountains and swaps. People could flee persecution, but Turks did not use the "covert or die" for the most part.

I don't know what was the role of the Despotate of Epeirus with all that. But I can tell you that before reading Cruciani & Bird I was also almost certain that the Arvanites were of Albanian stock ...after reading it well ...we have more E-V13 in areas that were never Albanophon (like Eastern Macedonia) and less E-V13 in areas that were "arvanitic strongolds".

So the acquisition of "Arvanitic" language doesn't seem like albanian migration , but more probably of migrations of Epeirotic people during the reigns of the Despotat of Epeirus . This people were ..yes.. albanophons , but they weren't albanogenic (of albanian stock).

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't know what was the role of the Despotate of Epeirus with all that. But I can tell you that before reading Cruciani & Bird I was also almost certain that the Arvanites were of Albanian stock ...after reading it well ...we have more E-V13 in areas that were never Albanophon (like Eastern Macedonia) and less E-V13 in areas that were "arvanitic strongolds".

So the acquisition of "Arvanitic" language doesn't seem like albanian migration , but more probably of migrations of Epeirotic people during the reigns of the Despotat of Epeirus . This people were ..yes.. albanophons , but they weren't albanogenic (of albanian stock).

several problems with your thesis:
1. It's obvious that Northern Alb has more EV. If Albs moved from southern Alb to Greece, they are less likely to carry the EV line and more likely to have the other ones which are present in Greece. Right? I Think Kosovo owes the larger amount due to isolation, you have to cross quite a few mountains to reach there. People close to Greece have lower EV and the same people are more likely to migrate.

2. Suppose you, a Greek, move to Germany. You and your friends. You learn the language blah blah blah. Why would you speak it in Greece, after you all return, and why would you pass it to generation after generation (I'm aware it's fading now, but there is pressure to conform and a long time has passed since immigration)?
You are GREEK and Greek is your native language. You know German because you had to in order to work and communicate, but now in Greece, all speak Greek and German is not something you need to care for anymore.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

Iskander was Orthodox then became a Muslim then back to Orthodoxy and then again towards the end he converted to Cathlocism......Come on you Albo's know the history of yr one and only hero........

Well, there are doubts on that, that's why. I even read that his father switched to orthodox for example when partnering with Lazarevic of Serbia.

As far as heroes, what can we do. We are not as lucky as you have given birth to heroes like yours: Botsaris, Kitsos Tsavellas, Andreas Vokos Miaoulis, Bubulina, the Hydra and Spetses warriors etc.

By the way, did Greeks rise ala Skenderbeg? Where were you guys, with that Leonidas spirit, all that time ? (Don't even start with the Byzantine Empire...)

Mehemet Ali and Ali Pasha did cause quite a few headaches for the Turks, with Ibrahim Pasha being just a few miles away from wiping the Sultan out, and Ali Pasha almost became your /our King. The killing of Muslims by Greek ruined the Souli partnership. Ali had them, other Christians and Muslims under him at the time of siege.

[Grace]

Interesting:

Paleo-mtDNA analysis and population genetic...
Get your own at Scribd or explore others:

"Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Alban (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%)."