Souliotes

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by helios

Of course was no mixture, all the sources say the same Graeco-Albanians meaning Albanian-Christians.

The Ottoman Empire, 1801-1913 - Page 23
by William Miller - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1913 - 547 pages



^^

Here, Miler in 1913, gave a very fair account the the Souliotes were a mix of Greeks and Hellenized (Orthodox) Albanians fighting Turks and Muslim Albanians.....

[Hellas7]

Originally Posted by helios

In 1748 V. Agostini sent by Papal authority to spread the Catolicism in Greece wrote a letter explaining the situation to Pope:
31.August.1748 :
......I am in Athen, this dirty Albanian village, I found nowhere Greeks despite my expectation but only pagan Albanian peasants who are not interested at all about religion..(my translation)

Ottoman Athens II

Later Ottoman Athens (1689-1821)

"He supposed the number of houses in Athens to be between twelve and thirteen hundred; of these about four hundred were inhabited by Turks, the remainder by Greeks and Albanians, the latter of whom occupied about three hundred houses. There were also seven or eight 'Frankish' families, under the protection of the French Consul. He thought the houses of the more important Athenians inferior to those of the wealthier Greeks at Ioannina or Livadia."


400 by Turks
300 by Albanians
300-400 by Greeks

http://www.anagnosis.gr/index.php?pageID=218&la=eng



The above seems more genuine than some generalizing comments.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

Do you remember which was the noblest tribe of the Dorians?

Dorian tribes
Ὑλλέας , Παμφύλους , Δυμανάτας,
Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai.

It was HYLLEIS or HYLLIONES or BYLLIONES an ILLYRIAN TRIBE the HERACLIDES.

Interesting but doesn't work..
One could quote Hammond in his "The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate" where while addressing "the fallacy of supposing that the cities of northern Epirus were 'Illyrian cities',"
he states:
"There is little point in proposing an Illyrian label for cities in which the language, the institutions, the officials, the onomastics, the city-planning and the fortifications were Greek."
but I won't, I'll choose Muller's "The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race" p.13-14, who takes this Ps.Skylax quote and analyses it giving a totally new dimension to your attempt of presenting historic connections where they simply do not exist.






So in short, while Ps.Skylax may provide us with info of the geography and peoples, the quote in question can by no means be titled accurate and taken seriously simply because we know that no such peninsula (peninsula = "a portion of land nearly surrounded by water and connected with a larger body by an isthmus") exists in the region (one could also question the existance of these peoples). Which proves that his account is not one which describes what he himself had seen but is simply based on mythical accounts.

[helios]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Interesting but doesn't work..
One could quote Hammond in his "The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate" where while addressing "the fallacy of supposing that the cities of northern Epirus were 'Illyrian cities',"
he states:
"There is little point in proposing an Illyrian label for cities in which the language, the institutions, the officials, the onomastics, the city-planning and the fortifications were Greek."
but I won't, I'll choose Muller's "The History and Antiquities of the Doric Race" p.13-14, who takes this Ps.Skylax quote and analyses it giving a totally new dimension to your attempt of presenting historic connections where they simply do not exist.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...osvls/1-34.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/2-5.jpg



So in short, while Ps.Skylax may provide us with info of the geography and peoples, the quote in question can by no means be titled accurate and taken seriously simply because we know that no such peninsula (peninsula = "a portion of land nearly surrounded by water and connected with a larger body by an isthmus") exists in the region (one could also question the existance of these peoples). Which proves that his account is not one which describes what he himself had seen but is simply based on mythical accounts.

1.Yes the Genuine Greeks are of Illyrian origin.

2.Mythology, all ancient history is totally based on mythology, so we must not accept or dissmiss according our interest.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

1.Yes the Genuine Greeks are of Illyrian origin.

2.Mythology, all ancient history is totally based on mythology, so we must not accept or dissmiss according our interest.

LOL.. so how do you intend to address the fact that the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians happens AFTER that of the Hellenes, how do Hellenes derive from a people that didn't even exist before them ???

Mythology has proven itself to be accurate at times BUT this is not one of them since the geographic discription is totally inaccurate and there are no archeologic finds to support it.. so can you present us with the exact location of the peninsula in question or some sort of find which would ?

[helios]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

.

Its not true . They are mentioned by Herodotus.

Herodotus Book 5:Terpsichore 68
τούτοισι τοῖσι οὐνόμασι τῶν φυλέων ἐχρέωντο οἱ Σικυώνιοι καὶ ἐπὶ Κλεισθένεος ἄρχοντος καὶ ἐκείνου τεθνεῶτος ἔτι ἐπ᾽ ἔτεα ἑξήκοντα· μετέπειτα μέντοι λόγον σφίσι δόντες μετέβαλον ἐς τοὺς Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας, τετάρτους δὲ αὐτοῖσι προσέθεντο ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἀδρήστου παιδὸς Αἰγιαλέος τὴν ἐπωνυμίην ποιεύμενοι κεκλῆσθαι Αἰγιαλέας.

If you consider Herodotus as an exclusive mythological writer yes, but then you have to overturn all the stories told by him about Hellenes.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

Its not true . They are mentioned by Herodotus.

Herodotus Book 5:Terpsichore 68
τούτοισι τοῖσι οὐνόμασι τῶν φυλέων ἐχρέωντο οἱ Σικυώνιοι καὶ ἐπὶ Κλεισθένεος ἄρχοντος καὶ ἐκείνου τεθνεῶτος ἔτι ἐπ᾽ ἔτεα ἑξήκοντα· μετέπειτα μέντοι λόγον σφίσι δόντες μετέβαλον ἐς τοὺς Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας, τετάρτους δὲ αὐτοῖσι προσέθεντο ἐπὶ τοῦ Ἀδρήστου παιδὸς Αἰγιαλέος τὴν ἐπωνυμίην ποιεύμενοι κεκλῆσθαι Αἰγιαλέας.

If you consider Herodotus as an exclusive mythological writer yes, but then you have to overturn all the stories told by him about Hellenes.

Actually Herodotus is refering to a mythical event, but in either way, its accuracy is irrelevent, based on the following... Σικυώνιοι = Sicyonians, do you know where Sicyon was situated?

[helios]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

LOL.. so how do you intend to address the fact that the ethnogenesis of the Illyrians happens AFTER that of the Hellenes, how do Hellenes derive from a people that didn't even exist before them ???

How come?
Hellenes (beside mythological Hellen) were called only the Dorians which mythological story shows coming from Illyria.
All the rest Danaioi and Mycenai and Achaeans, and Athenians were all Pelasgians.

[helios]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Actually Herodotus is refering to a mythical event, but in either way, its accuracy is irrelevent, based on the following... Σικυώνιοι = Sicyonians, do you know where Sicyon was situated?

Sicyon north Peloponnesus between Corinth and Achaea.
Yes the Dorians and Heraclides were marching toward south of it(it took a long time though)

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by helios

How come?
Hellenes (beside mythological Hellen) were called only the Dorians which mythological story shows coming from Illyria.
All the rest Danaioi and Mycenai and Achaeans, and Athenians were all Pelasgians.

How about preseting a source which places the homeland of the Dorians anywhere else than Mt.Oeta or do you read Herodotus selectively and thus missed 1.57, where he mentions that the Pelasgoi when in Thessaly were their neighbors ?