Souliotes

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

Non-Native: that's a lie. Albanian and Greek DNA are virtually identical (even if you don't like it

Lie?
Read the Alexiad of A.Comnena Book 6, chap 7 (just above 8):

"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus. "

Keep in mind that Dalmatia back then wasn't the same region we consider it today.. as for genetics, like 'em, sorry but I just don't care for them..

'Turk' meant Muslim. And Suliotes were Albanian. Now they might not to be identified but they are Albanians in blood and they were bandits as were many Albanians and Greeks. The fustanella is also Albanian.

Yeah and I'm a Martian.. texts like the memoirs of General Makrygiannis make no use of the term Turk as a religious denomination but as a racial one, hence why the Albanians aren't refered to as such.
Arvanites as already clarified considered themselves Hellenes, unlike what you may believe there is no single account of any one of them disassociating themselves from neither Hellenes nor Hellas... as for the foustanella, there's a whole topic about it.. take it there.

never trust wikipedia but check the sources...from 1800's till now. Why would a Greek scholar and Dumas back then lie about them being Albanian?[indent]

firstly who's quoting wiki and secondly, while you rush to degrade it as a source, you conveniently neglect to note that your quotes derive from the highly accurate "albanian.com".
So allow me to have some doubts on the correctness of the alleged citation of Gerolymatos' book.. who's Dumas ?

I can't post links, sorry. No one is trying to steal them, they are now Greeks in nationality and mentality, but back then...

But back then what??? did they not fight against your forefathers, were they not fighting for the liberty of Hellas, a Hellas which they considered their homeland ??
So do tell, what exactly was so different back then ?

The biggest mistake (purposeful) is to try to divide them by saying they were "orthodox" fighting "Muslim" Albanians. That meant jack. Muslims and Christians fought for Ali Pasha and Souli ripped off Muslims and Christians. Even Ali Pasha wasn't a religious at all, just went with the flow. In the end he even offered to become orthodox

Wake up, they were devided both by religion and beliefs.. one side believing that money is above all and the other upholding traditions and loyalties towards their country.. and what greater proof than the fact that they gave their lives for its liberty!!!
But that "offered to become Christian" actually tops the list of historic inaccuracies.. Exactly WHY would Ali offer to become Christian and to whom did he allegedly present this offer to, the Porte maybe that demanded his surrender or would it be towards the Hellenes who he loved to slaughter??

[Grace]

Search for a sentence in Google books. It is exact and on page 90 or 99.
"The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era"
By André Gerolymatos


>>"as Robert was being worried on all sides by the so-called Albanians and by the natives of Dalmatia sent by Bodinus. "

To me that means Albanians and someone else. What if we didn't name ourselves Albanian? It would the so called Albanians which I never heard of before.

And my forefathers were high up in the mountains dealing with someone else.


I cannot post link yet, but I'll post this from a peer reviewed paper published
recently (on Greek nationalists saying Albos don't have a culture /state :-) )
Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1, (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220
Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association


"Greek was only one of two commercial languages and
a half-dozen other languages employed in daily life. Ethnic maps from all parties during the
Balkan Wars agree that "the Slav, Albanian and Greek worlds meet just west of Kastoria"
(Aarbakke 1992:20); the eastern frontier of the Albanian presence ran from Kastoria to Lake
Ochrid."



"Finlay's late 19th-century description of the Suliotes gives some impression of the complexity of social categories in this area. To begin with, the Suliotes (celebrated by Byron and in Greek national history for their role in the liberation of Greece) were a "branch of the Tchamides, one of the three great divisions of the Tosks" (Finlay 1939:42)-in other words they initially spoke Albanian. The Tchamides (Tsamides, Cham in Albanian) were both Christian and Muslim by the late 18th century (in the 20th century, Cham applies to Muslims only). In their heyday, Chams reserved the name Suliote for about 100 families who, by virtue of birth, belonged to
the military caste of Suli (Finlay 1939:43). In time, immigrants from elsewhere, attracted by the privileges of autonomy in Suli, assimilated and were also named Suliotes. The Greek peasants who tilled Suliot land "were distinguished by the name of the village in which they dwelt"
(Finlay 1939:44). Clearly clan, class, and territorial labels had significance in addition to religious categories. The Suliotes are retrospectively classified as omoyenis (of Greek descent) and famous patriots, by virtue of their opposition to Turkish rule. Yet they collected taxes from
both Greek and Turkish villages within their own territory, and the question of a national identity can hardly be applied here (see also Perraivos 1836)."


"Berard's description of the Albanian Christian community of Albassan (or Elbasan) in 1896 is revealing of the complexity of cultural and political identifications in the southern Balkans. On the dividing line between the Latin-influenced north and the Greek-influenced south, the city took the form of concentric circles of, in Berard's terms, Albanian Christians, Albanian
Muslims, and Vlachs. The Christians, Berard writes, call themselves Greek and send their children to a Greek school. They are also loyal to the Ottoman Sultan, who, they say, protects Albania from the Slavs, and they place his portrait next to the Holy Icons. "By calling themselves Greeks, they only mean to distinguish themselves from the Bulgars of Macedonia and the
Catholics of high Albania [whom, by the way, they refer to as 'those Mirdite Jews']."

Alexandre Dumas is the guy who wrote a book on Ali Pasha (it's free and you should read it), very interesting. This and other free books show the inner works and how the Souli got paid 500,000 piastras to help Ali fight the Ottoman Turks and a promise to get back their land. A Botsaris was with him till the end. Ali, was not a Turk, nor a real Muslim and he was (much) harsher on Albanians. Power was his religion and he was about to become the first Greek/Albanian ruler but no one trusted him when he asked for cooperation.
He opened Greek schools, supported the new Greek language, arts and everything. Ianina was the capital of Greece and Albania.

Nothing else was happening, that's why Byron and everyone went there. Ali was the Sultan's biggest threat, after the other Albanian, the Egyptian
ruler who fought so he could get a new country (I think Syria) as a reward.

There was class or political class consciousness among common people. They fought not for Hellas (imagine them knowing about Hellas in 1821??) but
for booty. Stop reading Greek school books, it isn't as romantic. For more money they could have fought the Greeks, and Suljotes fought Suljotes.

In the end there were only a few thousand Greeks fighting for independence...and probably more for Ibrahim Pasha. Why?

It isn't as black or white. Read up Byron and Dumas. You will also find out that your church was very close to the Sultan. Very, very close because the Turks hated the Catholics. And Greeks were trusted more than Muslims to deal with certain matters.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

Search for a sentence in Google books. It is exact and on page 90 or 99.
"The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era"
By André Gerolymatos

Unfortunately no preview provided.

I cannot post link yet, but I'll post this from a peer reviewed paper published
recently (on Greek nationalists saying Albos don't have a culture /state :-) )
Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece
Author(s): Laurie Kain Hart
Source: American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1, (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220
Published by: Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association

Well when you cite a text, it would be best to quote all the juicy parts even if you don't like them..

page 199 reads:

In the second place, in this article I respond to puzzles that arose in my own fieldwork in northwest Greek Macedonia during this same period. I have been particularly interested in the interaction and the self-consciousness of different linguistic groups in this border zone and in how these various minority-language speakers, as well as monolingual Greeks, construe their own origins according to prevalent models of nationality and citizenship. Some of those who speak another language (in addition to standard Greek) attribute this allophony to the fact-as they see it-that they, as Greeks, were compelled to speak the language of foreign masters. Latin, Slavic, or Albanian influences are cast as minor distractions in a pattern of primordial national homogeneity. In other cases, informants associate domestic language with intense non-Hellenic ethnic or political attachments.

But to talk analytically in terms of language groups in this zone is to make very crude assumptions about languages and groups. Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity. In southern Albania, bilingual populations speak Albanian and Greek, and among those who speak Greek are some who have considered themselves either politically or ethnically Greek (or, in certain cases, autonomously Northern
Epirot). The several hundred thousand recent migrants from Albania into Greece include self-described ethnic Greeks as well as other kinds of Albanian citizens. There are also long-standing Christian Albanian (or Arvanitika-speaking) communities both in Epiros and the Florina district of Macedonia with unquestioned identifications with the Greek nation.

Now do you understand why we title them Hellenes?

[Grace]

Oh I do understand why, do not get me wrong. Especially now they identify as 110% Greek, there is no doubt and many orthodox Albanians feel "Greek" due to religion especially since our church is not as strong. How "Hellenes" they were in 1820 and whether they had the slightest clue about Socrates, that's another matter.

Also, how people feel does not change the facts. I can feel Greek too, but I am not. One may feel and love to be a direct descendant of Heracles, but he is not. Joining the Greek church and getting citizenship may make him a Greek, but he is from, say, Guatemala. Of course as generations go by, the "guatemalan" loses its force.

The paper is some 20+ pages. Once you start asking for "Vorio Epirus" I will quote that

some old references: http://books.google.com/books?q=chri...albanian+souli

Sorry about that Greek author's book. I actually read some 50 pages for Free. Maybe it's based on Geotargetign and only certain locations are allowed. Very interesting and scholalry, no emotions or nationalism. Try this:
"Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event [dance of death--my addition] in their elementary school pageants"
is cached on Google:


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF...=1&sa=N&tab=wp

One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

Oh I do understand why, do not get me wrong. Especially now they identify as 110% Greek, there is no doubt and many orthodox Albanians feel "Greek" due to religion especially since our church is not as strong. How "Hellenes" they were in 1820 and whether they had the slightest clue about Socrates, that's another matter.

In order for them to have known about the actual works of Socrates, Plato..etc there must have been some form of higher level of education and we all know that that was not the norm at the time in question.. But knowledge of who they were, as in their ancient forefathers, they most definitely did. (see topic titled "folklore")
You again centralize on religion.. religion had nothing to do with ethnic denomination hence why we have numerous, either Byzantine or later texts which refer to Slavs, Albanians, Arvanites, Bulgarians, Armenians, Vlachs..etc by their ethnic denomination and not by their religious belief.

Also, how people feel does not change the facts. I can feel Greek too, but I am not. One may feel and love to be a direct descendant of Heracles, but he is not. Joining the Greek church and getting citizenship may make him a Greek, but he is from, say, Guatemala. Of course as generations go by, the "guatemalan" loses its force.

Firstly, religion has nothing to do with either direct descendance or self-identification and by implying that it does, you are stating that no Hellene can be atheist, buddhist, dodecatheist... or whatever other religious belief one may have and by doing so, clearly deprive them from their right of religious freedom.
As for citizenship, well that can be applied providing we have a nation in the first place and in the time in question, we did not.
So your example of a Guatemalean can only be applied to today or after the liberation of Hellas and the formation of the state.

The paper is some 20+ pages. Once you start asking for "Vorio Epirus" I will quote that

Don't know what you're talking about, but there is a topic related to V.Epirus.

Sorry about that Greek author's book. I actually read some 50 pages for Free. Maybe it's based on Geotargetign and only certain locations are allowed. Very interesting and scholalry, no emotions or nationalism. Try this:
"Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event [dance of death--my addition] in their elementary school pageants"
is cached on Google:


http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF...=1&sa=N&tab=wp

Well we do celebrate their memory but that has little to do with their ethnicity and a quote from some "scholar" doesn't prove anything about it. In constrat I could quote Lord Byron who knew them obviously a whole lot better than any "scholar" does and titles them pure blooded Hellenes by speaking of "Heracleidan blood" (read "Canto the 3rd"")

One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312

[/quote]
This is what happens when you quote some "scholar" that writes about issues he/she knows little about and its quite annoying to see that you, even though claim the Suliotes to be Albanian, ignore their history !!!
Christophoros Perraivos in his detailed "History of Souli and Parga....." originally published 1803, after an analysis of the oldest of Suliote families (Zervas from the village Zerbo of Arta...etc) suggest that Suli is approx. 250yrs old and that tells us volumes about the 18th cent. claim your source makes.

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by Grace

One more: "The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town..."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/881312

The Souliotes fought for Greek independence. They fought the Sultan and Ali Pasha's Albanian army.

As for their ethnic make up, they were a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians as this book says below.



The Ottoman Empire, 1801-1913 - Page 23
by William Miller - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1913 - 547 pages

[Grace]

>> The Souliotes fought for Greek independence. They fought the Sultan and Ali Pasha's Albanian army.

was that before or after they foughtfor Ali Pasha? And what makes you think "Albanians" got along with "Albanians" or "Greeks" with "Greeks"? The worst stuff Ali did, was against Albanians, like killing some 600 males for what their fathers supposedly did to his mom decades earlier. For every Suli there were dozens of small Albanian villages he conquered, Ali Pasha style.

Also Ali died in 1821 and Suliots were helping him by then.

>> As for their ethnic make up, they were a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians as this book says below.

unlike the other books . Look it's a political question these days. They're in Greek psyche so any suggestions that they weren't Greek...you get the point.

[chicagogeorge]

^^

Simple, the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and fought for Greek independence not Albanian.

Here is an excerpt about them and their heroic leader Marcos Botsaris.

The National Cyclopaedia of Useful Knowledge 1853

[Grace]

>> Simple, the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and fought for Greek independence not Albanian.

Simple, the Souliotes fought for getting rid of the Turks. There was no idea on what country to form there, at least not for the average klepht. It isn't as romatic as you make it seem. http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html Many Greeks fought forthe Turks, and Greek shipowners were helping Turks as well.


And don' forget that Ali Pasha fired the first shot, by essentially declaring independence.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

Simple, the Souliotes fought for getting rid of the Turks. There was no idea on what country to form there, at least not for the average klepht. It isn't as romatic as you make it seem. http://www.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture6.html Many Greeks fought forthe Turks, and Greek shipowners were helping Turks as well.

Wrong again.. try reading the words of Kitsos Tzavelas.. (yeah another one of those Souliotes that you title Albanians).. as written in his letter to Ahmet Neprevistani, in which he clarifies that "these lands are Hellenic".. can't get any simpler than that.