Souliotes

[chicagogeorge]

Grace, you posted 3 or 4 books that claim the Souliotes as Albanian Orthodox Christians. You claim that the Souliotes were only called Greeks because of their religion. I have not denied an Albanian element in the Souliotes but to call them strictly Albanians is ludicrous. Other than Finlay, most of your sources are relatively new. I posted nearly 10 books from the 1800's which call the Souliotes Greeks.


What they did for Greece:

1. They fought for the liberation of Greece.
2. They fought against Albanians and Turks.
3. They allied themselves with the Greek klephts from throughout Greece.


I posted at least 10 books that claim the Souliotes as Greeks or a mixture of Greeks and Albanian Orthodox Christians.

Here is another from 1828

Notice the author quotes the dark Souliotes....
Notice the author mentions the Souliotes as independent areas in Greece along with the Maniotes, Sfakians, and several others.
Notice the author mentions the Souliotes as a Greek tribe who took refuge in the Ionian Islands to escape Ali Pasha.

[Grace]

Edward Augustus Freeman
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA1...text#PPA177,M1
Published 1877

When we speak of the Greek nation, we
must remember that the Greeks and those Albanians
who belong to the Orthodox Church have always had
a strong tendency to draw together. A large part of
Greece was at various times settled by Albanians, and
among these should be specially mentioned the people
of the small islands of Hydra and Spezza, because
they did great things for the cause. But there are
Albanians in other parts of Greece also, and it must
be remembered that the Albanians generally, both
Christian and Mahometan, have always kept up a
strong national feeling. Christians and Mahometans
alike have always been discontented, and often rebellious,
subjects of the Turk.

Some of them were able
to maintain their independence for a long time in
wild parts among the mountains. Such were the
people of Souli, Christian Albanians who were never
fully subdued till 1803, when they were overcome by
Ali of Joannina. This was a conquest of Christians
by Mahometans ; but it was not a conquest of
Christians by Turks. It was in truth a conquest
of Albanians by Albanians. Ali was a cruel and
faithless tyrant ; still he was not a Turk, but an
Albanian ; he was a rebel against the Sultan, and
he was so far an indirect friend of the Sultan's
enemies.

George, I can post a lot more sources (old ones too) but we'd be going in circles.

The reason I posted the new sources is that these are scholars and put things in the context we need. Plus, none of them seem to me to be biased, at least not to Albanians. (one is a very well respected Greek scholar.) Outside forums and youtube, no one really cares that much

As we know (and all reasonable people can agree) there was a huge mixup thanks to the Ottoman empire millet system. I can post dozens of links calling 100% Albanians 'Turks' because they were Muslim. In another thread someone even suggested that Albanian mirditore are mixed with Turks because they 'kidnapped Turkish women for brides." They actually kidnapped Muslim Albanian ones and converted to catholicism.

The state was a very new invention and religion was it. Had Serbia had a Church and Greece didn't, you would have been confused with Serbs. The same way Skenderbeg and his contemporaries used the term epiriote and Macedonian (I read that it was an honor thing too) and the the region meant something different from what it was 2500 years ago. Some day others will have to explain Luan Shabani (Leonidas Sabanis,) Pirro Dhima (Pyrros Dimas), Sotir Nini (Sotoris Ninis) etc etc etc.

Were 100% of Suli Albanians? Of course not, and there is no way to know. However, Tirana is not 100% Albanian and Athens is not 100% Greek but they are Albanian and Greek, at least as we now understand them. Reading many sources, it's pretty clear that "they" were of Albanian blood and Greek religion and even served under 'The Albanian Regiment' for Russia and Napoleon.

(I have to find time to update the fustanella post, but a Greek Olympian caused a lot of commotion when he wore it in the first Olympics (1890's ?); it wasn't considered 'Greek,' /clean but eventually it gained that status. )

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

[b]In another thread someone even suggested that Albanian mirditore are mixed with Turks because they 'kidnapped Turkish women for brides." They actually kidnapped Muslim Albanian ones and converted to catholicism.

Sorry but no suggestions made, just a simple citation of what the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

Long ago the Mirdites were wont to carry off Turkish girls of good family and, after baptizing them, made them their wives, so that there is a strong strain of Turkish blood in the Catholic Mirdites of to-day.

As you can see its not related to the terms Greek and Turk being used as religious denomination, which you suggest.

Were 100% of Suli Albanians? Of course not, and there is no way to know.

Then why do you continue debating an issue which has already been clarified.. Suliotes = both Hellenic and Albanian stock with the second apparently being a later addition ?

(I have to find time to update the fustanella post, but a Greek Olympian caused a lot of commotion when he wore it in the first Olympics (1890's ?); it wasn't considered 'Greek,' /clean but eventually it gained that status. )

1896 to be exact, Spyros Louis, an untrained and totally unknown "athlete" competed and won the marathon (event which was linked to ancient Hellenic history.. see Marathon battle). The whole commotion you mention had little to do with his choice of appearance but with the fact that he was a simple cart-driver that won an Olympic event.