Souliotes

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

There was no Hellas,when Ali Pash Tepelena was still alive.

But an Albania?? it existed right?
Their own words tell a totally different version of the story..

The "memoirs of the first rebellion, by Fotakos, first lieutenant, of Thodoros Kolokotronis" begin by stating "among the Hellenes the idea of obtaining freedom from a tyrrant was customary".... Lampros (to correct my previous mistake, her son not hubby) clarifid in his letter that he's fighting for the liberties of his land, Hellas...
So while the country as a legally recognized entity may indeed have not existed, the people knew exactly who they were and what they were fighting for.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I found a really interesting quote in Fotakos' memoirs:

page 10:




After 1769 15.000 Arvanites came to Peloponessos and ruined the place making Christians and Turks suffer. But also in 1807-1808, Veli Pasha, son of Ali Pasha came again with 12.000 Albanians and then the Turks suffered the most.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Wrong part quoted TirAlb.. "eat the roasted flesh of her son rather than to betray her country".. is the right one, and as already indicated, her hubby in his letter to Ali clarified that his country was Hellas.

what "hellas" in 1803 ? Come on. They just had a love hate relationship when they needed each other (99.99% hate) relationship.

The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town

http://www.google.com/search?q=The%2...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The name of Suliots was reserved for the Albanian warriors

http://books.google.com/books?id=KEU...um=8&ct=result

Suliots, the most remarkable tribe of Orthodox Albanians

http://books.google.com/books?id=PuY...teenth+century

His first goal was to reduce the Christian Albanians of Suli

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q...+albanian+suli
By André Gerolymatos a Greek prof too

How much of the great legend
of the Greek War of Independence would remain if the
share which the Christian Albanians had in it were subtracted ?
When one thinks of that various struggle, sometimes
savage, sometimes heroic, two chapters emerge which
have specially seized the imagination of Europe — the wars
of Suli against Ali Pasha, and the exploits of the seamen of
Hydra against the Turkish navy. Both the Suliotes and
Hydriotes were Albanians in blood, language, and customs.
They were " Greeks " only in the sense that the Vlachs are "
Greeks " — they belonged to the Orthodox Church, and if
any of them possessed any culture at all, it was Greek
culture. The Suliotes were a predatory tribe, rather better
organised and more homogeneous than most Albanian
septs, and their manners had not been softened by their
nominal Christianity. The Hydriotes were simply pirates.
The heroism and tenacity which both displayed as their
normal opposition to the Turks deepened under Greek
influence into a struggle for political liberty, have cast a
lustre and a glory upon the whole war which ought by
every law of historical justice to modify the judgment which
civilisation has passed upon the Albanians

http://books.google.com/books?id=n1Q...anian+suli&lr= Henry Noel Brailsford


you can ignore them all and try to find a hint or a wedge to say "maybe they were Greek" bue deep inside you know. Why did they serve on the Albanian Regiment Do not forget that there no Alb Orthodox Church, so any Alb Orthodox were called "Greeks"

[Grace]

"Like his predecessor, Omer Vrionis found himself harassed by the Souliots who were in firm possession of their native mountains on his flank. Needless to say, the benefits to be gained by aiding these sturdy Christian Albanians were obvious to the Greeks, above all to Mavrokordatos, the commander-in-chief in western Greece."
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-...20the%20Greeks

Barbara Jelavich, History of the Balkans, volume 1. Eighteenth and Nineteenth
Centuries. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983., pages 39-47, 73-80.

[Grace]

"The Suliots, for example, were an immigrant Albanian tribe who had learned to speak Greek from the Greek peasants over whom they tyrannized" (they were bandits and ripped you off, but you like them
http://books.google.com/books?id=0iC...Vh3XlGBfXDkxeg


and it says the same about Hydra and Spetses.

Peace Theories And The Balkan War By Norman Angell Page 119

Credit where credit is due.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

what "hellas" in 1803 ? Come on. They just had a love hate relationship when they needed each other (99.99% hate) relationship.

Really.. so presenting a quote in which a country titled Albania is cited even though it didn't exist nor had any form of Albanian nationalism sprung during that time, is considered a legitimate argument but a Hellas, mentioned by Suliots themselves, isn't?

The Suliots were a Christian Albanian tribe, which in the eighteenth century settled in a mountainous area close to the town

Go through the thread again and you'll find why this quote has been deemed inaccurate because the Suliot confederacy goes back to the 1550's..

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Really.. so presenting a quote in which a country titled Albania is cited even though it didn't exist nor had any form of Albanian nationalism sprung during that time, is considered a legitimate argument but a Hellas, mentioned by Suliots themselves, isn't?

So no Greeks existed before Greek nationalism sprung? That's playing with words. Listen, as I had before, no one can force anyone to admit it. I totally understand why some Greeks don't want to admit, but it makes no sense. In fact it's petty.

The sources I quoted have absolutely no bias, one of them is a Greek scholar and two were from peer reviewed papers and some are from 1800's. I have also mentioned before that back then, as you know, you were either a "Turk" or a "Greek," given that religion was used as such. So yes, they were Greek Orthodox since there no "Albanian orthodox" but in blood they were Albanian.

Give Albos some credit. When it came to fighting, Albos ruled, no matter what side they fought on. That was the male profession back then:

"... In contrast to the sedentary Turks, the warlike Albanians were capable of challenging the armatoloi in the mountainous regions as well as in the plains and valleys. The result was that in a very real sense, a Greco-Albanian condominium was established, exercising military authority over most parts of Rumeli where Ottoman cavalry could not penetrate... Moreover, the Ottomans quickly realized that the Albanians were even more difficult to control than the armatoloi, and consequently any such move would be self-defeating."
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...S%3E2.0.CO;2-1

*************

How much of the great legend
of the Greek War of Independence would remain if the
share which the Christian Albanians had in it were subtracted ?
When one thinks of that various struggle, sometimes
savage, sometimes heroic, two chapters emerge which
have specially seized the imagination of Europe — the wars
of Suli against Ali Pasha, and the exploits of the seamen of
Hydra against the Turkish navy. Both the Suliotes and
Hydriotes were Albanians in blood, language, and customs.
They were " Greeks " only in the sense that the Vlachs are "
Greeks " — they belonged to the Orthodox Church, and if
any of them possessed any culture at all, it was Greek
culture. The Suliotes were a predatory tribe, rather better
organised and more homogeneous than most Albanian
septs, and their manners had not been softened by their
nominal Christianity. The Hydriotes were simply pirates.
The heroism and tenacity which both displayed as their
normal opposition to the Turks deepened under Greek
influence into a struggle for political liberty, have cast a
lustre and a glory upon the whole war which ought by
every law of historical justice to modify the judgment which
civilisation has passed upon the Albanians. As the Christian
Albanians have worked for the greater glory of the Hellenic
idea, so the Mohamedan Albanians have contributed to
such sympathy as the Turks can still command in the
West.

http://books.google.com/books?id=n1Q...anian+suli&lr=
*********
"The Gueghes are thickset and muscular, the Toskes slender and agile, both strong, vigorous, and perhaps the finest race in Europe. The characteristics common to both peoples are love of independence, love of war, a revengeful spirit, merging into ferocity. They are wild, plundering, indefatigable soldiers, selling their services and their blood to those who pay them highest ; but lively, gay, adventurous, sober, generous and heroic so soon as it concerns the defence of their country, their tribe, or their family. They are an iron race, as hard as the rocks they inhabit. "
http://books.google.com/books?id=b9z...nder+and+agile

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

So no Greeks existed before Greek nationalism sprung? That's playing with words. Listen, as I had before, no one can force anyone to admit it. I totally understand why some Greeks don't want to admit, but it makes no sense. In fact it's petty.

Firstly re-read what I posted prior to making a fool of yourself unless you're intentionally distorting what I said aiming to achieve something that you obviously won't !!!
YOU claimed that there was no Hellas in 1803, I DIDN'T !!!
Now, on the other hand I've cited the words of the Suliotes,, in which they do not only NOT recognize your existance but openly state that they fight for Hellas..
So do explain, how you discredit their own words by citing some alleged authority?

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Firstly re-read what I posted prior to making a fool of yourself unless you're intentionally distorting what I said aiming to achieve something that you obviously won't !!!
YOU claimed that there was no Hellas in 1803, I DIDN'T !!!
Now, on the other hand I've cited the words of the Suliotes,, in which they do not only NOT recognize your existance but openly state that they fight for Hellas..
So do explain, how you discredit their own words by citing some alleged authority?

Who did Byron fight for and what is he?
Believe it or not, Ali Pasha fought for a Greek-Albanian state as well in the end. When he sent the Sultan the demands he knew the Sultan would never accept them and got ready for war. Muslims and Christians, Albanians and Greeks were fighting for him (and probably against him.)

Also, George Tenet is Greek but was the American CIA director. if America was like the Balkans an American nationalist might try to say he served USA, US passport, swore allegiance to USA, speaks English first, lives in USA, etc etc. So they are different levels of being "Greek," or "Albanian," but usually people today go by the bloodline.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by Grace

Who did Byron fight for and what is he?

What does he have to do with anything I said above?
Anyway, since I want to see where you're going with this.. he fought for the liberty of Hellas and was British..

Believe it or not, Ali Pasha fought for a Greek-Albanian state as well in the end. When he sent the Sultan the demands he knew the Sultan would never accept them and got ready for war. Muslims and Christians, Albanians and Greeks were fighting for him (and probably against him.)

Your point is what?
Kolokotronis also tried to implement a similar idea with the Albanian Ali Farmakis... so what?

Also, George Tenet is Greek but was the American CIA director. if America was like the Balkans an American nationalist might try to say he served USA, US passport, swore allegiance to USA, speaks English first, lives in USA, etc etc. So they are different levels of being "Greek," or "Albanian," but usually people today go by the bloodline.

Really bad example since there's no ethnic American.. unless you're talking about Cherokee, Apache.etc
But on the other hand, by swearing allegiance to the US, his immigrant parents denounced any form of relations to Hellas (read first sentence of the oath : "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"

So in short, Tenet while of Hellenic background, throughout his entire life has served the country in question and thus can justfully be titled American... and to your dispair, like it or not, nationalism has nothing to do with his loyalties.

So do you intend to tell me what the words of the Suliotes which clearly speak of Hellas and Hellenic origins have to do with a Brit, some confederation and an American ?