Albanian Propaganda from Illyrian.org

[Orphic_Hymn]

Epirus-Cameria and Phyrros ,but how come that Romans didn't identify Epirots as Greeks? Why Greek historians tend to hellenize everything? The region of Epirus by most of the facts that ancient historians have given to us seems to be a non Greek region:

Our friend mentions Roman historians and attempts to accuse the Hellenic scholars of Hellenizing everything but he conveniently neglects to present a single quote by a Roman that would suggest otherwise, instead he distorts and due to ignorance jumps to conclusions that would suit his propaganda objective.

1)”Thucydides” In his book (Peloponnesian War) He describes the Barbarian Allies of the Peloponnesians.............

True, Thucydides classifies the Chaones and Thesprotoi as 'barbarians' but as Charles Anthon in his 'System of Ancient and Medieval Geography' clarifies, Illyrian irruptions had partly barbarized (obviously culturally) the region hence why we see the difference between the account of Thucydides to the earlier one of Herodotus. A Herodotus, who not only titles Thesprotia as a Hellenic land, but also suggests that the Thessalians (a purely Hellenic people) "came from Thesprotia to dwell in the Aeolian land," book 7.176.4, which indicates that the people were also considered as such.

2)"Skylaks" He writes around (370-360 b.c) A Geographic book.

He describes the People that lives in Adriatic and Ionian region.

"In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,

"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"

"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaones and Thesprotes. between them The Mollosians have opened an exit to the sea which is (40 stadia = 8Km).""After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis, which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"

Scylax wrote his Periplous, but it has little to do with the claims made. Since he clearly differentiates the above mentioned tribes from the Illyrians:

Europe 1.28

ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ' ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.

translation

CHAONES. AFTER the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day

Besides the fact that the Chaones and those after them while moving Southward are desribed as a distinct people non-related to the Illyrians, its obvious that the previously noted Illyrian irruptions had played a major role on how they were perceived. This is evident from the fact that although the
Thesprotoi which are as mentioned in Herodotus to be Hellenic and the clear reference to the River Acheron, which is related to Hellenic culture, traditions and mythology is made, Scylax stressed that they, the Chaones, the Kassopians and the Molossoi all lived in villages (κατὰ κώμας) unlike the Ambrakians which lived in a city.
Of course neither can the reference to ἔθνος (nation) be used as an argument, since not only are the Magnesians titled as such, but even the Acheans, which indicates that this isn't an ethnic reference but rather a tribal one.

3)Plutarch-----------(Pyrrhus)------------

He was raised as an Illyrian Prince:

The Brotherhood between him and Glaucias sons:

Since when are relations between kingdoms which in this case are neighboring considered an indication of descent
This reminds me of our friend Megalommatis' argument that the Myceneans weren't Hellenic because they had paid a visit to the Hittite king.

Plutarch clarifies his linage and gives us info on why the Epirotes, although Hellenic in origin were perceived as a 'backward':

The Life of Pyrrhus 1

χρόνῳ δ' ὕστερον Νεοπτόλεμος ὁ Ἀχιλλέως λαὸν ἀγαγὼν αὐτός τε τὴν χώραν κατέσχε, καὶ διαδοχὴν βασιλέων ἀφ' αὑτοῦ κατέλιπε,Πυρρίδας ἐπικαλουμένους· καὶ γὰρ αὐτῷ Πύρρος ἦν παιδικὸν ἐπωνύμιον, καὶ τῶν γνησίων παίδων ἐκ Λανάςσης τῆς Κλεοδαίου τοῦ Ὕλλου γενομένων ἕνα Πύρρον ὠνόμασεν. ἐκ τούτου δὲ καὶ Ἀχιλλεὺς ἐν Ἠπείρῳ τιμὰς ἰσοθέους ἔσχεν, Ἄσπετος ἐπιχωρίῳ φωνῇ προσαγορευόμενος. μετὰ δὲ τοὺς πρώτους τῶν διὰ μέσου βασιλέων ἐκβαρβαρωθέντων καὶ γενομένων τῇ τε δυνάμει καὶ τοῖς βίοις ἀμαυροτέρων, Θαρρύπαν πρῶτον ἱστοροῦσιν Ἑλληνικοῖς ἔθεσι καὶ γράμμασι καὶ νόμοις φιλανθρώποις διακοσμήσαντα τὰς πόλεις ὀνομαστὸν γενέσθαι.

translation


In after time, however, Neoptolemus the son of Achilles, bringing a people with him, got possession of the country for himself, and left a line of kings descending from him. These were called after him Pyrrhidae; for he had the surname of Pyrrhus in his boyhood, and of his legitimate children by Lanassa, the daughter of Cleodaeus the son of Hyllus, one was named by him Pyrrhus. Consequently Achilles also obtained divine honours in Epeirus, under the native name of Aspetus. But the kings who followed in this line soon lapsed into barbarism and became quite obscure, both in their power and in their lives, and it was Tharrhypas, historians say, who first introduced Greek customs and letters and regulated his cities by humane laws, thereby acquiring for himself a name.

Strabo:

He has written about the passengers traveling along Egnatia road(Via Egnatia):
"Starting from Epidamnus(Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places which is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

Actually this is a distortion of the quote for obvious reasons. There is no reference to Hellenic as in an ethnologic sense, but the phrase is "belong to Hellas" (τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐστίν) in a geographical one.(Strabo's Geography 7.7.4.29)

Also he writes:

"After the Epirots and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles

Another conveniently nit-picked quote since our friend obviously ignores the texts. Strabo has clarified why he presents a distinction between Hellenes and Epeirotes, the reason is found in 5.2.4

Strabo Geography 5.2.4
τὰ Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη Πελασγικὰ εἰρήκασιν, ὡς καὶ
μέχρι δεῦρο ἐπαρξάντων· Πελασγούς

translation

many have called the tribes of Epirus Pelasgian," because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that

Ephores:

He writes : "the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West ,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirot tribes"

Actually this quote derives from Strabo's Geography who's quoting and comments the lost work of Ephoros, a comment that clarifies and proves that the use of this quote is intentionally taken out of context.

Strabo Geography 8.1.3

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes. But just as Ephorus, using the seacoast as his measuring-line, begins with Acarnania, for he decides in favor of the sea as a kind of guide in his description of places, because otherwise he might have represented parts that border on the land of the Macedonians and the Thessalians as the beginning

[Ptolemy]

This is taken from the propagandistic Albanian site But how come that Romans did NOT identify Epirots as Greeks?

Epirus-Cameria and Phyrros ,but how come that Romans didn't identify Epirots as Greeks?

Error #1 Romans identified Epirotes as Greeks.

“…Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him “what kind of a place he had found Rome to be,” Cineas replied, that “he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece.”

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium

1)”Thucydides” In his book (Peloponnesian War) He describes the Barbarian Allies of the Peloponnesians.


"From the Hellenes there were the Ambraciots, Leucadians and 1000 Peloponnesian hoplites."


"From the Barbarians there were: 1000 Chaones witch had no King but 2 Prostates for 1 year Fotis and Nikanores. The Chaones are joint by Thesprotes wich have no King either. In the head of the Mollosians and the Atintanians was Sabylinthius, wich was the tutor of King Tharypa (yet still a child).There were also the Parauei with their King Oroides and 1000 Orestes."

Error #2 "Barbarian" has also the meaning of culturally inferior. It doesnt always define ethnicity since also Greek tribes have been labeled barbarians

Plutarch-----------(Pyrrhus)------------


Pyrrhus was brought at the home of the Illyrian King Glaucias: "Thus being safe, and out of the reach of pursuit, they addressed themselves to Glaucias, then King of the Illyrians, and finding him sitting at home with his wife, they laid down the child before them."


He was raised as an Illyrian Prince:


"At present, therefore, he gave Pyrrhus into the charge of his wife, commanding he should be brought up with his own children; and a little later, the enemies sending to demand him, and Cassander himself offering two hundred talents, he would not deliver him up; but when he was twelve years old, bringing him with an army into Epirus, made him king."


The Brotherhood between him and Glaucias sons:


"He took a journey out of the kingdom to attend the marriage of one of Glaucias's sons, with whom he was brought up;"

Error #3 Albanian nationalists ignore the fact Pyrrhus was brought to Glaukias' court solely for the reason his wife was the Molossian princess Beroe. Thus Pyrrhus was brought up until he reached 11 years old by his aunt Beroe as an Epirotan, not Illyrian. In fact Glaukias' sons were half Epirote, half Illyrians.

[MakedonasGR]

Lets continue

Epirus-Cameria and Phyrros ,but how come that Romans didn't identify Epirots as Greeks? Why Greek historians tend to hellenize everything? The region of Epirus by most of the facts that ancient historians have given to us seems to be a non Greek region:

1)”Thucydides” In his book (Peloponnesian War) He describes the Barbarian Allies of the Peloponnesians.

"From the Hellenes there were the Ambraciots, Leucadians and 1000 Peloponnesian hoplites."

"From the Barbarians there were: 1000 Chaones witch had no King but 2 Prostates for 1 year Fotis and Nikanores. The Chaones are joint by Thesprotes wich have no King either. In the head of the Mollosians and the Atintanians was Sabylinthius, wich was the tutor of King Tharypa (yet still a child).There were also the Parauei with their King Oroides and 1000 Orestes."

2)"Skylaks" He writes around (370-360 b.c) A Geographic book.

He describes the People that lives in Adriatic and Ionian region.

"In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,

"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"

"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaones and Thesprotes. between them The Mollosians have opened an exit to the sea which is (40 stadia = 8Km).""After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis, which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"

3)Plutarch-----------(Pyrrhus)------------

Pyrrhus was brought at the home of the Illyrian King Glaucias: "Thus being safe, and out of the reach of pursuit, they addressed themselves to Glaucias, then King of the Illyrians, and finding him sitting at home with his wife, they laid down the child before them."

He was raised as an Illyrian Prince:

"At present, therefore, he gave Pyrrhus into the charge of his wife, commanding he should be brought up with his own children; and a little later, the enemies sending to demand him, and Cassander himself offering two hundred talents, he would not deliver him up; but when he was twelve years old, bringing him with an army into Epirus, made him king."

The Brotherhood between him and Glaucias sons:

"He took a journey out of the kingdom to attend the marriage of one of Glaucias's sons, with whom he was brought up;"

Strabo:

He has written about the passengers traveling along Egnatia road(Via Egnatia):
"Starting from Epidamnus(Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places which is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.

Also he writes:

"After the Epirots and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles

Appianus:---------(Historia Romana)-----------

In his book "Historia Romana" it is an article about the Illyrians:
"The Hellenes call Illyrians, those people wich live across Thrace and Macedonia from Chaones and Thesprotes till the river of Istria"

Ephores:

He writes : "the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West ,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirot tribes"

==============================================

It's obvious that the 3 Epirot tribes where not Greek by origin and language, we know very well that in the times Peloponnesian war happened, Hellenes knew very well who was Greek and who wasn't, they could recognize and see the difference between a Greek and a Barbarian.

It doesnt seem to be the opinion of numerous greek authors from ancient times of which the most prominent are Strabo and Thucydides!

They continuously refer to the epirotic tribes (including the molossians from which Pirro of Epirus was from) as "barbaric" and "speakers of non-greek language" and their land "as beyond the borders of Hellas" etc...

Such opinions are also shared by mediaeval authors such as Laonikos Chalcocondylas and co.

Now why would they write such things if Epirus was undoubtly greek?

How come we albanians use the term "Cameria" which is even older than Epirus for this region if we came as late the mediaeval era? We sure didnt get it from the greeks since greeks and even greek epirotes never use this term,they only use Thesprotia and Hpeiros etc. Cameria or Tchyameria comes from the old river of Tchyamis (kallama) and later it was used by albanians for the entire region.

Source

What da F*** is Albania?? Illyrians? Thats incredible!

[olvios]

This belongs in the illyrians org thread which we have answered not here.

[olvios]

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...yrian-org.html
it belongs here along with the other trash from the alb site

[olvios]

And its all answered here.Epirotes and Pyrrhus were Greek.
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...olossians.html
Albanians are poor liars.

[Flipper]

It is funny how they tend to change the texts and cut out what suits them best. Especially even touching the history of Skylax is playing with fire. That man puts an end to their Epirus dreams.

[Hermes]

continue....its nice to hear all these...

[Hermes]

sorry...to interupt.....why do u speak about these Hellines?....are u making any study about them....or....do u have anything common with them?????!!!!!

[Ptolemy]

Originally Posted by Hermes

sorry...to interupt.....why do u speak about these Hellines?....are u making any study about them....or....do u have anything common with them?????!!!!!

Funnily whenever you struggle to write down sth, as if it could somehow "insult" according to your demented line of thought, you are doing so miserably that you achieve only to make a total ass of yourself.

Try learning elementary grammar before you come up again your monotonous boring gibberish.