Himara in 1854

[kostas68]

Some of our Albanian friends claim that the Himariots aren't Greeks,they were Hellenized due to their commercial relationship with Corfu,e.t.c.These claims seem to be very absurd-no one can change his national consciousness due to his relation with his distant neighbors,when a sea is separating them and he is surrounded by people of his own kin.They are also claiming that Epirotans and Albanians were,or were considered the same kin in Ottoman times.What wrote about this topic an English traveller,John Murray,who came across Epirus and Albania(Himara region),in 1854?

Below he describes his travel in the mountains of Himara,accompanied by a native Himariot guide and he makes a clear distinction between Illyrian-Albanian and Epirot men and mountains.The first village they visit is Dradziates.

The Himariot guide shouts in Greek:κακός δρόμος!(bad road!) and the toponyms Vouno and Doukadhes,both Greek are mentioned.

Now they come across Aspri Rouga,and the villages of Drymades and Palasa,near the site og ancient Palaste,again Greek toponyms.

And finally,when they reach Himara,he finds still considerable remains of Hellenic masonry and he finds off course the Himariots,who speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians,as he says,is Albanian.Isn't totally absurd that although they were surrounded by Albanians,they were Hellenized by the Greeks who lived in an island(Corfu)50km away ?

[TirAlb]

kostas were exactly that article says that Himariots are Greeks?
Some of my points are even streesed there,like the inaccessibility of the region and the easyness of reaching Korfu with a boat.

[Flipper]

Very good finding..

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

kostas were exactly that article says that Himariots are Greeks?

If someone: 1)Speaks Greek,2)Uses Greek toponyms in his region,2)Consider himself Greek,what else could he be?Your claim is an arbitrary unsubstantiated assumption opposite to all the rules of logic.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Some of my points are even streesed there,like the inaccessibility of the region and the easyness of reaching Korfu with a boat.

If the easyness of reaching by sea a Greek region 50 km away could Hellenize Albanian populations who were surrounded by other Albanian populations,then nobody in Albania would speak Albanian nowadays.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by kostas68

If someone: 1)Speaks Greek,2)Uses Greek toponyms in his region,2)Consider himself Greek,what else could he be?Your claim is an arbitrary unsubstantiated assumption opposite to all the rules of logic.

You forgot to put songs,clothes and customs in general,that are simply Albanian.They speak greek as half of south Albanians speak it.What now toponyms are,are the ones that define peoples ethnicity?!What about mount Cika,is that greek too?

If the easyness of reaching by sea a Greek region 50 km away could Hellenize Albanian populations who were surrounded by other Albanian populations,then nobody in Albania would speak Albanian nowadays

Not 50,but 30,and not only Korfu but also Puglia that is even more distant.And they are not hellenizated they just speak Greek as well as Albanian.

[Andrew]

Don't you just love being a Balkanian ???

200 years from now ...in the future balkan FORUMS people will say ...:
"the guys talking to macedonia-on-the-web what ethnicity were they ?"
A Greek will say :"Greeks watch the magiority of the Names : Andreas , Kostas etc"
An Albanian will say : Ya but there was a name Tiralb ..probably he was a "hellenized Albanian" !!
A FYROMer (if that exists in 200 years) will say ..."none !!They comunicated in English and by the name of the FORUM (Macedonia on the web) they must be anglophon "makedontsite" !!!"

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

You forgot to put songs,clothes and customs in general,that are simply Albanian.

Or simply Epirotan.How can you define clearly what belongs to whom in peoples who live mixed for centuries?It's the same as between the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia or Northern Thrace(today's South Bulgaria) and the Bulgarians of the same region.If you compare their songs,clothes,e.t.c you'll find remarkable simmilarity,especially in the songs.The music is almost at 90% the same.If you hear only the music and not the lyrics,you can't distinguish no way what's Greek and what's Bulgarian.(And they are wonderfull songs,both Greek and Bulgarian).

Originally Posted by TirAlb

They speak greek as half of south Albanians speak it.

But the English traveler wrote that they spoke only Greek,if they spoke and Albanian he would mention it,wouldn't he?Or maybe you believe he had any reason to hide it?As he says about the majority of the surrounding populations that they spoke Albanian,he would say it for the Himariots if they spoke Albanian.Probably they spoke Albanian,but not as their native tongue,which was the Greek one and that's what surprise him and he depicts this contrast saying that <the Himariots speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians is Albanian>.
Come on,TirAlb,don't react like the Skopians!

Originally Posted by TirAlb

What now toponyms are,are the ones that define peoples ethnicity?!

No,not for sure,but if these toponyms are used by a native people who speaks the same language and has the same national consciousness,isn't that an evidence?

Originally Posted by TirAlb

What about mount Cika,is that greek too?

Yeah,it's as Greek,as Albanian are Argyrokastro and Saranda I didn't claim all the toponyms in these region as Greek but a big percentage of them.

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Not 50,but 30,and not only Korfu but also Puglia that is even more distant.And they are not hellenizated they just speak Greek as well as Albanian.

And they just consider themselves Greeks,unlike their Albanian neighbors.OK,even it's better to speak to a wall than to you,as we say in my village,they spoke Greek as their native language,as it can be clearly concluded by the English traveler's narration and i accept that they might also speak Albanian,even it's nowhere mentioned by him,but not as their native tongue.

[kostas68]

Originally Posted by Andrew

A FYROMer (if that exists in 200 years) will say ..."none !!They comunicated in English and by the name of the FORUM (Macedonia on the web) they must be anglophon "makedontsite" !!!"

If this could ever happen,i would rise from my grave and the one who would dare to claim it.

[Andrew]

Tiralb I must say one thing here ...you say that they learned Greek to comunicate with Corfu ....Don't forget that most Corfu guys (I prefer Kerkyrei) and most coastal Albanians knew and know Italian ..so there was a comersial language for both ...so since that there isn't realy a necessity to learn Greek (since Italian works fine for bisiness) , the fact that they speak greek must mean that they felt greeks.Now the Himariots had also top comunicate with the inner Albanians who didn't speak Italian , so they had to learn also Albanian ...What do you think ?

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kostas68

If this could ever happen,i would rise from my grave and the one who would dare to claim it.

and you know what the "Donski of the future" will use for evidence eee?
In that FORUM they also spoke about Himariots in Northern Epeirus ..now we all know that "aleksandar veliki"'s mother Olympiova was from Epeirus and so..
..the MotW guys were "Makedonski"s