Brief Overview of the History of Epirus

double post

Originally Posted by Pastrim

Buddy I know way more about vjose river than you, I've crossed and swam numerous times.
Of course you see your mistake. If your map is an ethnic one based on the description you yourself quoted, than the map has a massive error.



So know your map is ideological? Roloff clearly states:


Using this data the middle zone ends with Vjosa and the third zone begins with Vjosa. Constructing a map by the data you claim to be using than the map SHOULD look like this.

Roloff said between the Voisa and the Semini only 1000 Greeks lived. The line of separation is between the two rivers around Apollonia and Berat





Maybe I did extend the green area a bit further east accoriding to Roloff's data, but like the other sources say once you approach Berat the Greek language is not common, and Albanian is. and that Avlona, an Albanian speech town is submerged in a sea of Greeks (according to the American Geographical Society back in 1915).

If I pushed the line of Greek speech too east, you isolated it too close to the sea, and pushed the Albanian dominant zone to far south near the Greek border.

You are telling me that the the region you colored in blue of Korytsa, Moschopolis, Kleisoura, the Gramos Mt, only 1000 Greeks lived?



Here is an excerpt from someone who is from Korytsa




and here is what this book states about Epirus...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zt0...esult&resnum=1




and here is a breakdown of Albanians and Greeks in the Kaza of Korytsa in 1913

Originally Posted by olvios

and a map which corresponds more to the demensions that I drew.



here is another map that seems to take an intermediate ethnic veiwpoint putting the area of Greeks a bit further south, but also showing pockets of Greeks around Korytsa



and even more recent ethnic estimates, would put your blue shade way to far south.

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http://mondediplo.com/maps/albania

http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999
http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/jpg/mosaic.jpg
http://mondediplo.com/maps/mosaic

WOW More spamming. I will stick with the issue. If you want to run and hide and post endless images go ahead.

Roloff said between the Voisa and the Semini only 1000 Greeks lived. The line of separation is between the two rivers around Apollonia and Berat

Vjosa river starts in Greece. Roloff includes as this region Berat and Leskovik. All the towns along Vjosa from Leskovik to Vlore are listed as entirely Albanian.
Map of vjose.


Maps of all the towns and regions of the Vjosa frontier are listed as populated entirely by Albanians. Do I need to quote Roloff on the towns of Leskovik, Permet, Tepelene, and Vlora?


Roloff description of the 3rd zone.

The third portion between the Viosa and Semeni is inhabited entirely by Albanians, excepting 1000 Greeks:Berat, 120,000(80,000 Mussulmans, 40,000 Christians).||In the remaining part, Lescoviki, 64,500(31,000 Christians 33,500 Mahommedans).|| This third portion has no relation to Hellenism, beyond that of the Tosk tribes being under control of the Vali of Janina- that is to say Epirus.

You are telling me that the the region you colored in blue of Korytsa, Moschopolis, Kleisoura, the Gramos Mt, only 1000 Greeks lived?

According to Roloff yes. If you're asking me, of course. I want to keep the conversation limited so I will not state why. You have the habit to expand discussions to infinite issues, surely to avoid the truth. Prove me wrong Georges.

Originally Posted by Pastrim

WOW More spamming.

You can post maps relating to your point of view but I can't

I will stick with the issue. If you want to run and hide and post endless images go ahead.

Run and hide:clapping:

this is what I said.

Maybe I did extend the green area a bit further east accoriding to Roloff's data,

I conceded that based on the data, I extended the middle zone too far east.

Vjosa river starts in Greece. Roloff includes as this region Berat and Leskovik. All the towns along Vjosa from Leskovik to Vlore are listed as entirely Albanian.
Map of vjose.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/albania/m...-river-map.jpg

I agree

Maps of all the towns and regions of the Vjosa frontier are listed as populated entirely by Albanians. Do I need to quote Roloff on the towns of Leskovik, Permet, Tepelene, and Vlora?
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9523/epirus3.jpg

I agree as well, but I still disagree with your southern limit (south of Leskovik) in the Gramos Mts and Albanian dominant

Roloff description of the 3rd zone.

Georgraphical squabbles aside the real issue is not where one zone starts and where the other ends.

, Roloff's figues still stand. In the entire area of Epirus in 1900 there were more Greeks than Albanians. Do you agree or disagree?



Leon Dominion seems to give an accurate account on language zones of Epirus, where Greek dominates and where Albanian dominates...

The frontiers of language and nationality in Europe‎
by Leon Dominian - Nationalism and nationality - 1917
http://books.google.com/books?id=7lw...f+language&lr=




And at your convenience, can you comment on the situation in Korytsa in say about 1915

You can post maps relating to your point of view but I can't

I posted the GREEK MAP because it highly correlated with Roloffs demographics data.

I conceded that based on the data, I extended the middle zone too far east.

You agree by using Roloff, vjose is the boundary up to the neighborhood of Leskovik?

I agree as well, but I still disagree with your southern limit (south of Leskovik) in the Gramos Mts and Albanian dominant

Straight lines are not perfect. If I could I would have used the current boundary from leskovik to prespa lake. Are you claiming Roloff does not imply north of this area Albanians dominate?

Georgraphical squabbles aside the real issue is not where one zone starts and where the other ends.

, Roloff's figues still stand. In the entire area of Epirus in 1900 there were more Greeks than Albanians. Do you agree or disagree?

Wait a minute! Roloff does not include the third zone in the total demographics of Epirus. So the question is what is considered Epirus. When you place the northern boundary soon as Greeks no longer inhabit of course the demographics would support Greek majority. That would be like including zone two with zone three and excluding zone 1(Ionnina), than Albanians dominate.

If including zone 3 than the numbers become

1. Greeks 241,500+1,000=242,500
2. Vlachs 27,000+0=27,000
3. Jews 2,500+0=2,500
4. Albanians 107,500+120,000(Berat)+64,500(Leskovik)=292,000
5. Total= 564,000

• Albanians 51.77%
• Greeks 43%
• Vlachs 4.79%
• Jews 0.44%

Originally Posted by Pastrim

I posted the GREEK MAP because it highly correlated with Roloffs demographics data.

Yes, but then I posted two maps (one Greek and the other French) which contradicted it to a certain extent.

You agree by using Roloff, vjose is the boundary up to the neighborhood of Leskovik?

Yes according to Roloff I woud agree.

Straight lines are not perfect. If I could I would have used the current boundary from leskovik to prespa lake. Are you claiming Roloff does not imply north of this area Albanians dominate?

Roloff doesn't say what the ethnic make up of say the area around Korytsa is.

Wait a minute! Roloff does not include the third zone in the total demographics of Epirus. So the question is what is considered Epirus. When you place the northern boundary soon as Greeks no longer inhabit of course the demographics would support Greek majority. That would be like including zone two with zone three and excluding zone 1(Ionnina), than Albanians dominate.

If including zone 3 than the numbers become

1. Greeks 241,500+1,000=242,500
2. Vlachs 27,000+0=27,000
3. Jews 2,500+0=2,500
4. Albanians 107,500+120,000(Berat)+64,500(Leskovik)=292,000
5. Total= 564,000

• Albanians 51.77%
• Greeks 43%
• Vlachs 4.79%
• Jews 0.44%

Don't forget that Roloff also stated that 60,000 Greeks had left Epirus after the Congress of Berlin...

The third zone is really out of the ancient classification of Epirus (but not all of the third zone). By ancient classification Epirus starts at Oricos Ths area was also called Epirus Vetus by the Romans. Later "Epirus Nova" extended further north a bit.






an analogy can be made with the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, and the later geographic region, which is much larger.

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

Yes, but then I posted two maps (one Greek and the other French) which contradicted it to a certain extent.

Lol George I have plenty of maps too. I'll be happy to start a map thread. It is weird that you use maps since most maps strongly disagree with your two favorite ones. Most maps I've seen are closer to the one I posted.

Roloff doesn't say what the ethnic make up of say the area around Korytsa is.

But did imply further northward the more Albanian.

Don't forget that Roloff also stated that 60,000 Greeks had left Epirus after the Congress of Berlin...

That is meaningless to me. Is he talking about a forced migration? From which parts? O just general emigration into USA, Insanbol, Athens, etc...
If so that applied even to Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs.

The third zone is really out of the ancient classification of Epirus (but not all of the third zone). By ancient classification Epirus starts at Oricos Ths area was also called Epirus Vetus by the Romans. Later "Epirus Nova" extended further north a bit.

I agree on Epirus geography, which matters little with 20th century ethnic lines. I already showed you that if zone 2 is included with zone 3 under the South Albania umbrella with zone 1 excluded, the demographics would greatly support it. This is deceiving! If Greece annexes Albania, Greece would still be Greek majority since Albania is only 3 mill. That does not imply Albania is Greek .

After looking more carefully Roloff is describing Ionnina vilayet.
51.77% Albanian by a pro-Greek. Not bad.

Originally Posted by Pastrim

Lol George I have plenty of maps too. I'll be happy to start a map thread. It is weird that you use maps since most maps strongly disagree with your two favorite ones. Most maps I've seen are closer to the one I posted.

Don't be so sure about that

But did imply further northward the more Albanian.

Northward. I agree.....

That is meaningless to me. Is he talking about a forced migration? From which parts? O just general emigration into USA, Insanbol, Athens, etc...
If so that applied even to Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs.

Meaningless? In 30 years time 60,000 Greeks left Ottoman Epirus for free Greece and elsewhere.... He did not mention Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs. You are assuming...

I agree on Epirus geography, which matters little with 20th century ethnic lines. I already showed you that if zone 2 is included with zone 3 under the South Albania umbrella with zone 1 excluded, the demographics would greatly support it. This is deceiving! If Greece annexes Albania, Greece would still be Greek majority since Albania is only 3 mill. That does not imply Albania is Greek .

Well, the topic of conversaton is which ethnic group made up the majority of inabitants in the land of Epirus. Not the Pashlik or Villayet of whatever the Ottomans decided to draw up their own lines.... By ancient definition of what the original Epirus was (is) ethnic Greeks made up a large majority. Do you agree The land of ancient Epirus in modern times had a large Greek majority?

After looking more carefully Roloff is describing Ionnina vilayet.51.77% Albanian by a pro-Greek. Not bad.

Well Finlay definitely doesn't say this 40 years earlier. Must have been the 60,000 Greeks that left.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KEUOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3

Originally Posted by chicagogeorge

Don't be so sure about that
Meaningless? In 30 years time 60,000 Greeks left Ottoman Epirus for free Greece and elsewhere.... He did not mention Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs. You are assuming...

I don't care what Gustav did not mention. It is well known Orthodox Albanians had migrated out as well, some of them became Greeks. Many who went to USA later formed the 1st Albanian Orthodox Church and were the primary diaspora that lobbied the Albanian stance and saved their native lands from Greek invasion and assimilation.

Well, the topic of conversaton is which ethnic group made up the majority of inabitants in the land of Epirus. Not the Pashlik or Villayet of whatever the Ottomans decided to draw up their own lines.... By ancient definition of what the original Epirus was (is) ethnic Greeks made up a large majority. Do you agree The land of ancient Epirus in modern times had a large Greek majority?

Greeks were majority within the boundaries of ancient Epirus. It implies nothing of south Albania.

Well Finlay definitely doesn't say this 40 years earlier. Must have been the 60,000 Greeks that left.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KEUOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3

LOL at least you could have directed me straight to the page. In any case I read it. He says North of Arta Greeks are majority. And gives no boundary of where Epirus ends nor any numbers. Very vague information.