Arvanites

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

No this is not exactly what you were claiming:
the above article is clearly talking about the late 1800's and specifically about the region of Albania and states nothing remotely close to anything you've claimed about the forcive conversion of the Arvanites residing in Hellas.

The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!

"You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if your fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses."

…Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) said this,and im just trying to think about these poor fellows that had two alternatives:learn(idem become) greek or burn in hell.If this is not a forcature!

[Victor]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!

So what?The church dominated the education of Orthodox Albanians BEFORE the Ottoman Empire.
Stop blaming others for your weakness.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

The above article,in the paragraph quoted is clearly talking,about the cooperation between the patriarch of constantinople and the ottoman empire in order to suffocate any rising form of Albanian identity.Why should i think that the way of doing of these institutions toward Albanians was different before 1800,and than suddenly changed?!

"You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if your fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses."

…Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) said this,and im just trying to think about these poor fellows that had two alternatives:learn(idem become) greek or burn in hell.If this is not a forcature!

Where did you see anything remotey close to a reference of "co-operation"?
the "joined the Turks" doesn't mean co-operation but rather adoption of their tactics of suppressing the culture.
But then again, your misinterpretation of the text is proved to be intentional through your manipulation of the quote of St. Kosmas' words in an attempt to claim persecutions... the exact quote is:

The Prophet Moses studied for forty years to learn his letters in order to understand where he walked. You too should study, my brethren; learn as much as you can. And if you fathers haven't, educate your children to learn Greek because our Church uses Greek. And if you don't learn Greek, my brethren, you can't understand what our Church confesses. It is better, my brother, for you to have a Greek school in your village rather than fountains and rivers, for when your child becomes educated, he is then a human being. The school opens churches; the school opens monasteries.

the words in bold just like the sentence both in bold and underlined indicate exactly what the true mission of St. Kosmas was, and that was to educate among others, your totally ignorant population. A simple glance at his life would have also indicated this fact, for he is well known to have established over 150 schools to educate the ignorant.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Orphic_Hymn

Where did you see anything remotey close to a reference of "co-operation"?
the "joined the Turks" doesn't mean co-operation but rather adoption of their tactics of suppressing the culture.
But then again, your misinterpretation of the text is proved to be intentional through your manipulation of the quote of St. Kosmas' words in an attempt to claim persecutions... the exact quote is:


the words in bold just like the sentence both in bold and underlined indicate exactly what the true mission of St. Kosmas was, and that was to educate among others, your totally ignorant population. A simple glance at his life would have also indicated this fact, for he is well known to have established over 150 schools to educate the ignorant.

Are you suggesting that the patriarch was operating in clandestinity?
Manipulation?!The meaning of the text is sadly the same,a clear attempt to brainwash the Albanians,none denies your bravure,indeed building greek schools in those areas was like selling refrigerators to the Eskimos.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Are you suggesting that the patriarch was operating in clandestinity?
Manipulation?!The meaning of the text is sadly the same,a clear attempt to brainwash the Albanians,none denies your bravure,indeed building greek schools in those areas was like selling refrigerators to the Eskimos.

I'm suggesting the evident which is that one event is not related to the other in any form of "agreed co-operation" as you fallaciously attempt to present it and had you read the life of the individual who's words you distorted above, you would have known that his strife to "sell a fridge to Eskimos" was considered reason enough for him to be considered an "agent" and lead to his execution by those who you claim to be his little partners.

Nice little agreement they had there.

The whole point is that you are building your argument on the absurd claim of forcive Hellenization based on a quote related to the late 1800's when in reality, the Arvanites had already proven that they had denounced whatever limited cultural ties had existed centuries before the events in question and did anything but claim or even think of relations to the hated "Turk-Albanians" (a title found in various texts like the memoirs of Fotakos, Kolokotronis, Makrygiannis).
The point is that you have totally failed to provide an explanation as to why the very first reference of your people even prior to their invitation into Hellas, made by M.Attaleiates in 1040AD, also indicates a distinction between the 2 peoples since they are clearly refered to separately. A distinction which is seen in a number of later texts like in the letters of M.Paleologos II (lines 106-108) in which its clarified that the Albanians (refered to as Illyrians in the text) did not participate in the uprising in Mani which was lead by Kladas, a pure-blooded Arvanitis.