Arvanites

[Tsontos]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

It was a constant process,that probably was started from the greek church during the ottoman period.But it became important just before and after the formation of the Greek state.

I dont understand. Ethnic identity was only a nascent, barely significant factor amongst Balkan peoples with the onset of Ottoman rule. You're suggesting that the Orthodox Church and Patriarch in Constantinople, under the Ottomans, cared about instilling an ethnically Greek identity among Albanian Christians. And then this process was so far advanced that by the time of the 1820s the Arvanites were some of the most fanatic exponents of Greek nationalism and enlightenment, which was often anti-clerical at the same time??

You do realise perhaps the biggest obstacle to Greek independence was the unwillingness of the church to risk its position and give in to nationalist, french revolutionary ideologies??

[TirAlb]

Orphic wrote:

Their beliefs obviously derive from cultural or even ethnic differences which they knew of and we are searching for. What I mean is that in a multi-ethnic empire like that of Byzantium where ethnic origins weren't the first issue of interest, what makes us seek for their ethnic connections or lack of them, is the clear distinction between them. IF for example, the Arvanites were nothing more than Albanians (since we know beyond doubt that they were indeed speakers of the lang.), the question that immediately appears is why would historians of the time make a distinction and refer to the first as Arbanites and the later as Illyrians, when it would be simple logic to define them as the same?

I heave never heard that!i know that south slavs were called Illyrians(even napoleon quotes them as such),Albanians-epirotes,western/Bulgarians-macedonians and so on,it was just an habbit they had to call the population of those areas with the name of the ancient ones.
The medieval name of the Albanians was,Arber,and the consequent forms are:Arvanites,Arnaut,Arbanitas,Arberesh,Albaniansâ €¦.
We have an perfect example:The Arbereshs in Sicily(in Piana degli Albanesi,wrongly named until the beginning of the last century,Piana degli Greci) who migrated mostly from the pelopones area(morea).They are Arvanites that lived in Italy in the past 500 years and more,and they still preserve their Albanian identity,and their diaspora had an important role in the the rebirth of the Albanian nationalism.Why?In italy nobody forced them to change their identity.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Reaper

There are those who might be aware that 12 generations ago there was an arvinites in their family, but they are rare. Because they wanted to be completely Greek, not the other way round. Peoples who tried to keep some history in Greece ie wanted to, were able to, see the jews of Greece, pontians ect. There was no attempt to assimilate avanites, they wanted to become greek, so they married greek, that was the end. And that was a long time ago. Other peoples to do that were slavs in Greece to name one other group.

It is actually Albanian nationalism that are the reason we talk about it here, no other reason. I know there are Greeks mixed with Albanians in the South of Albania, do I think they are greek? I think they are whatever they want to be.

I don’t think sow,and as i already said this is one of the points were the difference between the parts stays!Im going to repeat my self,Arvanites existed during the Greek revolution,and gave their precious contribute(this is important for me)they don’t exist by this time(I don’t care).The Turkish(I have lack of knowledge about Pontiacs),Jew, and Albanian are three different problems solved in mostly three different ways,the turkish with exchange of the population,the second is not directly related to the topic,even why an interesant one,and the third with assimilation politics (orthodox albanians,arvanites included),and mass deportation(muslim albanians).
Look i think that the albanian nationalism was mostly feeded from the greek (idem serb) actions and nationalism.Ofcourse there are greeks in Albania not that much as the Greek biased fonts propably told you but this minority definitely exists,it is made of about 50’000 people.They were always respected,they had their schools during communism,and in the present times we have universities in greek.or even a greek minister.We also had common marriages,and let solve it in a “old” way:Albanian father+Greek mother=Albanian;Greek father+Albanian mother=Albanian).
Our real problem are the ones that declare themselves as Greeks just for some money,but its not a big deal however,because you are taking just the rotten part of our society.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Voulgaroktonos

I dont understand. Ethnic identity was only a nascent, barely significant factor amongst Balkan peoples with the onset of Ottoman rule. You're suggesting that the Orthodox Church and Patriarch in Constantinople, under the Ottomans, cared about instilling an ethnically Greek identity among Albanian Christians. And then this process was so far advanced that by the time of the 1820s the Arvanites were some of the most fanatic exponents of Greek nationalism and enlightenment, which was often anti-clerical at the same time??

You do realise perhaps the biggest obstacle to Greek independence was the unwillingness of the church to risk its position and give in to nationalist, french revolutionary ideologies??

From the accuracy of the description of my point of view,i can guess that you know that it is not only mine but an wellknown theory.Yes im saying that the Orthodox Church as the only non turk authority in the region instilled the greek identity among Albanians.
Are you saying that the greek revolution was an anticlerical one?No way,in my opinion it was some kind of holy war against the infedels(muslims),if there was really any anti-clerical movement inside,it can be,but the final result shows us how insignificant it was.

[Tsontos]

Most of the members of the Philiki Etairia which organised the 1821 revolt were freemasons ie. particularly anti-clerical. All the protagonists including Kolokotronis spoke about the clergy as being by far the biggest obstacle to achieving independence. Lastly the Patriach Gregorius condemned the revolution upon its outbreakand all subsequent patriarchs did the same! The church manifestly opposed independence.


It wasnt until decades after independence that the church began to align its interests completely with the Greek national cause. The church was not concerned with national/ ethnic identity. This is why Im extremely doubtful that the church (patriarch) had any interest in telling a bunch of albanians that they were actually Greeks at anytime during Ottoman yoke!

[Truth Bearer]

TirAlb can u tell us pls are u a Muslim,Orthodox or Catholic Albanian?

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Truth Bearer

TirAlb can u tell us pls are u a Muslim,Orthodox or Catholic Albanian?

Is that important?...Catholic!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Orphic wrote:


I heave never heard that!i know that south slavs were called Illyrians(even napoleon quotes them as such),Albanians-epirotes,western/Bulgarians-macedonians and so on,it was just an habbit they had to call the population of those areas with the name of the ancient ones.
The medieval name of the Albanians was,Arber,and the consequent forms are:Arvanites,Arnaut,Arbanitas,Arberesh,Albanians… .
We have an perfect example:The Arbereshs in Sicily(in Piana degli Albanesi,wrongly named until the beginning of the last century,Piana degli Greci) who migrated mostly from the pelopones area(morea).They are Arvanites that lived in Italy in the past 500 years and more,and they still preserve their Albanian identity,and their diaspora had an important role in the the rebirth of the Albanian nationalism.Why?In italy nobody forced them to change their identity.

Well you can find a couple of quotes in the first page of this topic + the million $ question in post 7 (which can also be found here in an article written by the authority of "Albanology", Dr. Robert Elsie, who states:

In his ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium

but how could S.Slavs be titled Illyrians when we know of the Byzantine administative measure of the Sklavinae which obviously gained its name from these S.Slavs and how they were known to the very Byzantines that formed them ?
(I think you might be thinking about later Slavic propaganda and the little issue that rose between Albanians and Slavs on who had the right to claim descendance)

As for the S.Italian Albanians, how do they apply as an example which would prove that the Arvanites and Albanians are one and the same and how does it answer my question of the reason that certain Byzantine authors (which means up to 1400AD and not during the Napolean era which is 1800AD) indicated this distinction?

But what is this forced to change identity bs? you seem to neglect is that even if there was some relation (I believe a mixed ancestry) there was no force, if the connection was denounced it was done willingly, simply because at the time, Albanian was nothing more than a synonym to Ottoman lackey, converts that fullfilled every desire of the oppressor and thus loathed. Unlike the Arvanites, those that define themselves as Albanians in Italy never met neither the Ottomans, nor their "enforcers".

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Im going to repeat my self,Arvanites existed during the Greek revolution,and gave their precious contribute(this is important for me)they don’t exist by this time(I don’t care).

Indeed the Arvanites have contributed to the country greatly, the questions here, since the issue of our independance does interest you is who were they fignting against, why and how they perceived them ?

The Turkish(I have lack of knowledge about Pontiacs),Jew, and Albanian are three different problems solved in mostly three different ways,the turkish with exchange of the population,the second is not directly related to the topic,even why an interesant one,and the third with assimilation politics (orthodox albanians,arvanites included),and mass deportation(muslim albanians).

Problems?
Anyway the first was not a problem during the early years of the country's formation, the lackeys were already dealt with, the remaining populations were exchanged due to the emergence of hostilities between the countries.

The second never were an issue and proof of this fact are the actions during WW2 during which their 'extermination' would have been child's-play, but to the contrary they were protected.

As for the third, well thats the result of collaborating with the enemy.. Personally I feel absolutely nothing more than disgust for those that allowed them to flee.

They were always respected,they had their schools during communism,and in the present times we have universities in greek.or even a greek minister

Sorry but you're totally wrong on this one.. Beginning with your King Zog and escalated in 1933-34 and including the events during Hoxha's rule during which we saw schools closed down, Hellenic lang. books burnt, not to neglect religious temples burnt to the ground so he could implement the commie desire of atheism are far too well recorded to even suggest that they were respected?

Our real problem are the ones that declare themselves as Greeks just for some money,but its not a big deal however,because you are taking just the rotten part of our society.

If this is indeed an issue, well it actually says volumes about those that perform it and should worry us more than it does you. But then again, why should it be a problem for you? I mean you are simply getting rid of individuals that would sell out who they are for a $.. I for one would be more than happy to see such individuals out of my country and willingly denounce the name they obviously are not worthy of bearing.

[Truth Bearer]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Is that important?...Catholic!

Tell me TirAlb does that make you a Gheg??