Arvanites

[gmellos]

the reason why they are brought up is because Albanian nationalist will try to use them as a way to lay claim to land in Hellas!

[TirAlb]

Hi to all!I just readed some topics and i can say that this forum is really amazing!

Originally Posted by Teukros

Haven't actually been absorbed by the Greek population?A research back in the 70 showed there weren't different by the rest of Greeks and certainly distinc from albanians

Im replying to you just because yours is one of the latest posts!

This Effort to portray the Arvanites as Greeks seems to me too much forced and too similar to the Western/Bulgarians wanabee Macedonians claims.I think that in your post you reply to yourself...you are openly saying that they were ABSORBED.
However you can't absorbe their past!Come one don't see every thing with the present point of wiev,maybe Albanians and Greeks weren't always enemies?!maybe sometimes they fought side by side?!

the reason why they are brought up is because Albanian nationalist will try to use them as a way to lay claim to land in Hellas!

Well i don't think so,the Arvanitik issue has nothing to do with territorial claims.Its much more and historical problem,the Cam problem on the contrary yes!But it is a different topic!

[Reaper]

I think you believe maybe arvanites did not mix with greeks for the last 500 years, and lost their language, culture ect? Is that true? Do you actually believe there are still groups in greece claiming to be arvanites?

[TirAlb]

I think you believe maybe arvanites did not mix with greeks for the last 500 years, and lost their language, culture ect? Is that true?

No I don’t believe this?But I think that the lose of their language is a quite recent thing,mostly due to the rise of the nacionalism in Greece and the consequent politics!Probably the conflict here is caused from a different conception of “nationality” that the our two nation have.For us a common language and common rots are more than enough to claim Arvanites as Albanians,instead for you religion and how the immediate interested claim themselves are as much important.
As for the religion i can’t even comment it because when the it is mixed with things as nationality or politics in my opinion it is not a religion any more,but just a politic instrument and not one of the cleanest indeed.About the second,I can claim all day long that I am a French or a German but these is not enough to make me such.We have in the balcans a current example,the fyroms claiming themselves as Macedonians.So like the Bulgar/Macedonian claim is due to the fyrom politics and propaganda,also the Arvanites/Greek claim is due to the Greek politcs and propaganda.

Do you actually believe there are still groups in greece claiming to be arvanites?

As I already said the arvanite issue is an historical problem,and their present situation and claims are not that important.However im sure that individuals still exists,an contemporaneous one was Aristidh Kola/Kolias for example.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

also the Arvanites/Greek claim is due to the Greek politcs and propaganda.

The major difference here is that its not the Hellenic government that notes their distinctions from the Albanians but they they do it themselves just as they have throughtout their history.

However im sure that individuals still exists,an contemporaneous one was Aristidh Kola/Kolias for example.

People noting their Arvanitic origins indeed exist but not a single one of them has attempted to present it as something non-related to the Hellenic nor strictly Albanian. They are nothing but another example of those who note their lets say, Vlach or Tsakonian backgrounds.
As for your reference of Kollias (note that he never was a historian nor considered as one), besides the several question which his theories raise, he considers the link far more ancient than their movements during 1200-1450AD, since he tried to relate them to a Pelasgic branch.

[Tsontos]

TirAlb, when exactly in your opinion did Arvanites "forget" they were Albanian?

[TirAlb]

The major difference here is that its not the Hellenic government that notes their distinctions from the Albanians but they they do it themselves just as they have throughtout their history.

Ok the greek government(and church also) has nothing to do with this,do you really,really... believe so?
However I absolve them for “mental incapacity”,actually,they was much more famouse for they fighting skills.What can I say: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing”.

People noting their Arvanitic origins indeed exist but not a single one of them has attempted to present it as something non-related to the Hellenic nor strictly Albanian. They are nothing but another example of those who note their lets say, Vlach or Tsakonian backgrounds.
As for your reference of Kollias (note that he never was a historian nor considered as one), besides the several question which his theories raise, he considers the link far more ancient than their movements during 1200-1450AD, since he tried to relate them to a Pelasgic branch.

Ok then,they are unstrictly Albanian!
He relates their language with the pelasgic language,as an old form of Albanian,the Arvanitik is ofcourse much closer to the ancient Pelasgic than the Albanian itself.However did I mentioned that he was an historian? Of course not,so I don’t understand why you come out with this statement.

[TirAlb]

Originally Posted by Voulgaroktonos

TirAlb, when exactly in your opinion did Arvanites "forget" they were Albanian?

It was a constant process,that probably was started from the greek church during the ottoman period.But it became important just before and after the formation of the Greek state.

[Reaper]

There are those who might be aware that 12 generations ago there was an arvinites in their family, but they are rare. Because they wanted to be completely Greek, not the other way round. Peoples who tried to keep some history in Greece ie wanted to, were able to, see the jews of Greece, pontians ect. There was no attempt to assimilate avanites, they wanted to become greek, so they married greek, that was the end. And that was a long time ago. Other peoples to do that were slavs in Greece to name one other group.

It is actually Albanian nationalism that are the reason we talk about it here, no other reason. I know there are Greeks mixed with Albanians in the South of Albania, do I think they are greek? I think they are whatever they want to be.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Originally Posted by TirAlb

Ok the greek government(and church also) has nothing to do with this,do you really,really... believe so?
However I absolve them for “mental incapacity”,actually,they was much more famouse for they fighting skills.What can I say: “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing”.

Their beliefs obviously derive from cultural or even ethnic differences which they knew of and we are searching for. What I mean is that in a multi-ethnic empire like that of Byzantium where ethnic origins weren't the first issue of interest, what makes us seek for their ethnic connections or lack of them, is the clear distinction between them. IF for example, the Arvanites were nothing more than Albanians (since we know beyond doubt that they were indeed speakers of the lang.), the question that immediately appears is why would historians of the time make a distinction and refer to the first as Arbanites and the later as Illyrians, when it would be simple logic to define them as the same?

While I don't totally understand where you're going with that "mental incapacity" statement, the Arvanitic and Albanian populations that were brought into Hellas by various Dukes ..etc weren't thought of as a fighting force but as a labor force, hence why we know of regions in Hellas that were nothing but fields maintained by Albanians and today still bear their name, take Spata in Athens as an example.

Ok then,they are unstrictly Albanian!
He relates their language with the pelasgic language,as an old form of Albanian,the Arvanitik is ofcourse much closer to the ancient Pelasgic than the Albanian itself.However did I mentioned that he was an historian? Of course not,so I don’t understand why you come out with this statement.

Yes he did indeed try to make some absurd linguistic connections based on assumptions since he also totally rejects the IE liguistic theory which is far from disproved without providing an ounce of evidence. You can find some examples in a different thread HERE.
The reason I mentioned he wasn't a historian nor anything remotely close to one, is because I've noticed that his theories are well circulated among Albanians and the majority of you tend to accept it hands down and support it passionately, without giving it a second thought. Lets say that I was just trying to avoid hearing that "we" killed him for what he had written, when he actually died of cancer.