The Greek tribes of Epeirus

[boreans79]

Originally Posted by olvios

The greek tribes of Epirus Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, the Paroraei, the Atintanes, the Amphilochians ..

Your map is NUL.
The last tribe of Epirotes(not greek) is Amphiloches.

STRABO 007.007.008
Ἠπειρῶται δ' εἰσὶ καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ οἱ ὑπερκείμενοι καὶ συνάπτοντες τοῖς Ἰλλυρικοῖς ὄρεσι, τραχεῖαν οἰκοῦντες χώραν, Μολοττοί τε καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες καὶ Αἴθικες καὶ Τυμφαῖοι καὶ Ὀρέσται Παρωραῖοί τε καὶ Ἀτιντᾶνες, οἱ μὲν πλησιάζοντες τοῖς Μακεδόσι μᾶλλον οἱ δὲ τῷ Ἰονίῳ κόλπῳ. λέγεται δὲ τὴν Ὀρεστιάδα κατασχεῖν ποτε Ὀρέστης φεύγων τὸν τῆς μητρὸς φόνον καὶ καταλιπεῖν ἐπώνυμον ἑαυτοῦ τὴν χώραν, κτίσαι δὲ καὶ πόλιν, καλεῖσθαι δ' αὐτὴν Ἄργος Ὀρεστικόν. ἀναμέμικται δὲ τούτοις τὰ Ἰλλυρικὰ ἔθνη τὰ πρὸς τῷ νοτίῳ μέρει τῆς ὀρεινῆς καὶ τὰ ὑπὲρ τοῦ Ἰονίου κόλπου·

The Amphilochians are Epeirotes; and so are the peoples who are situated above them and border on the Illyrian mountains, inhabiting a rugged country--I mean the Molossi, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei, the Orestae, and also the Paroraei and the Atintanes, some of them being nearer to the Macedonians and others to the Ionian Gulf. It is said that Orestes once took possession of Orestias--when is, exile on account of the murder of his mother--and left the country bearing his name; and that he also founded a city and called it Argos Oresticum. But the Illyrian tribes which are near the southern part of the mountainous country and those which are above the Ionian Gulf are intermingled with these peoples




POLYBIUS - 'THE RISE OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE', HISTORIES Book XVIII.5

'What is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and what how do you define Greece?. Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks!. The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Amphilochians cannot be regarded as Greeks. So do you allow to me to remain in those territories'

(Philip V of Macedon responding to Roman demands to withdraw from the territories he has invaded)

If the Amphiloches(who are Epirotes) are not Greeks that means that all Epirotes are not Greek.

But the funny thing is that even the Aetolians are regarded mostly as non-greeks.

[olvios]

Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986

Archeology says they are.

And so do these fella's

Aristotle,Meteorologica

“ so in determined periods there comes a great winter of a great year and with it excess of rain. But this excess does not always occur in the same place. The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes. ”

Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer

[olvios]

"boreans79" There is no doubt that the Epirotes were Ancient Greeks, we have Mycenaean too presence and well and archeology says they were Greeks.

Any other issue?

[olvios]

Provide links please.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...okup=Plb.+18.3

Speech of Alexander Isius

When Phaeneas the Aetolian strategus had delivered this demand, a man called Alexander Isius, who had the reputation of being an able politician and good speaker, said that "Philip was neither sincere at the present moment in proposing terms, nor bold in his manner of making war, when he had to do that. In conferences and colloquies he was always setting ambushes and lying in wait, and using all the practices of war, but in actual war itself took up a position at once unjust and ignoble: for he avoided meeting his enemies face to face, and, as he fled before them, employed himself in burning and plundering the cities; and by this policy, though himself beaten, he spoilt the value of the victor's reward. Yet former kings of Macedonia had not adopted this plan, but one exactly the reverse: for they were continually fighting with each other in the open field, but rarely destroyed and ruined cities. This was shown clearly by Alexander's war in Asia against king Darius; and again in the contentions between his successors, when they combined to fight Antigonus for the possession of Asia. So too had the successors of these kings followed the same policy down to the time of Pyrrhus: they had been prompt to war against each other in the open field, and to do everything they could to conquer each other in arms, but had spared the cities, that they might rule them if they conquered, and be honoured by their subjects. But that a man should abandon war, and yet destroy that for which the war was undertaken, seemed an act of madness, and madness of a very violent sort. And this was just what Philip was doing at that moment; for he had destroyed more cities in Thessaly, on his rapid march from the pass of Epirus, though he was a friend and ally of that country, than any one who had ever been at war with the Thessalians."

After a good deal more to the same effect he ended by asking Philip, "On what grounds he was holding the town of Lysimacheia with a garrison, having expelled the strategus sent by the Aetolian league, of which it was a member? Also on what grounds he had enslaved the Ciani who were also in alliance with the Aetolians? Lastly, on what plea he was in actual occupation of Echinus, Phthiotid Thebes, Pharsalus, and Larisa?" [p. 206]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...okup=Plb.+18.4

Philip's Response

When Alexander had concluded his speech, Philip came somewhat nearer to the shore than he was before, and, rising on board his ship, said that "Alexander had composed and delivered a speech in the true Aetolian and theatrical style. For every one knew quite well that nobody willingly destroys his own allies, but that, at times of special danger, military commanders are compelled to do many things contrary to their natural feelings." While the king was still speaking, Phaeneas, who was very short-sighted, interrupted him by saying, "You are trifling with us; you must either fight and conquer, or obey the commands of the stronger." Philip, in spite of the unfortunate position of his affairs, could not refrain from his habitual humour: turning towards Phaeneas he said, "Even a blind man could see that." Such a knack had he of cutting repartee. Then he turned to Alexander again and said, "You ask me, Alexander, why I took possession of Lysimacheia. I reply, in order that it might not by your neglect be devastated by Thracians, as it has now actually been; because I was compelled by this war to remove my soldiers, who indeed were no hostile garrison, as you say, but were there for its protection. As for the Ciani, I did not go to war with them, but only assisted Prusias to take them who was at war with them. And of this you yourselves were the cause. For though I sent envoy after envoy to you desiring that you would repeal the law which allows you the privilege of taking 'spoil from spoil,' you replied that rather than abolish this law you would remove Aetolia from Aetolia."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...okup=Plb.+18.5

Philip Retorts On His Accusers

When Flamininus expressed some wonder at what he
meant by this, the king tried to explain it to him by saying that "The Aetolian custom was this. They not only plundered those with whom they were at war, and harried their country; but, if certain other nations were at war with each other, even though both were friends and allies of the Aetolians, none the less the Aetolians might, without a formal decree of the people, take part with both combatants and plunder the territory of both. The result was that in the eyes of the Aetolians there were no defined limits of friendship or enmity, but they were ready to be the enemies and assailers of all who had a dispute on anything. [p. 207] "How then," he added, "have they any right to blame me if, while on terms of friendship with the Aetolians, I did anything against the Ciani in support of my own allies? But the most outrageous part of their conduct is that they try to rival Rome, and bid me entirely evacuate Greece! The demand in itself is sufficiently haughty and dictatorial: still, in the mouths of Romans, it is tolerable, but in that of Aetolians quite intolerable. What is this Greece, pray, from which ye bid me depart? How do you define it? Why, most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks; for neither the Agrai, nor the Apodoti, nor the Amphilochi are counted as Greek. Do you then give up those tribes to me?"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...okup=Plb.+18.6
Philip's Answer to the Rhodians and Attalus

Upon Flamininus laughing at these words, Philip proceeded:.......

-

He speaks of the Aetolian claims and the Roman claims and toys with the notion of what is Greece to push away both the Aetolian demands & the Roman ones and placate that latter.

*The amazing thing is that Macedonians are calling other Greeks "names" that were assigned to them by Athenians.Thats politics taking advantage of circumstances and they work both ways.One more proof for the Greekness of the Macedonians and all and any accusations against them.This will and can be used in Demosthenes case of slander.Seems you are working for us.

Epirus is actually a closed issue archeology n all.

[boreans79]

Originally Posted by olvios

"boreans79" There is no doubt that the Epirotes were Ancient Greeks, we have Mycenaean too presence and well and archeology says they were Greeks.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...usMycynaen.jpg
Any other issue?

There is no doubt that Epirotes were NOT Ancient Greeks.

There is NO doubt that all quotes you brought here contradict themselves.

There is no doubt that only a very very small number of serious linguists have accepted the LINEAR B(mycenian script) to be an archaic form of Greek.

There is no doubt that even if we accept statements of Aristoteles and Claudius Ptolemy we must accept that Epirots have never been branch of Ancient Greeks, but the contrary Greeks being small branch of Epirots and Illyrians.

There is no doubt that ancient population of Hellas(like Mycenians, Argives, Achaians, Athenians, Arcadians, Leleges etc ) were clearly Pelasgians and NOT Greeks who came later (Dorians and Heraclides).

[boreans79]

Originally Posted by olvios

"boreans79" There is no doubt that the Epirotes were Ancient Greeks, we have Mycenaean too presence and well and archeology says they were Greeks.

Who said that ? Ventris & Chadwick?
They definitely are wrong.

[olvios]

You can keep refusing like the Skopians in the Macedon case but archeology has decided.You can take your childish games elsewhere.Open a book, i don't know in what village you are or if you are mentally impaired.You ignore concepts.Your personal opinion doesn't matter.Learn to read kid.

Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986

Quote: "the Thessaloi, led by Heracleidae, migrated from Thesprotia in southern Epirus to enter the south-western canton of Thessaly, which was thenceforth called Thessaliotis" A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 75,1986

Quote: "... The original home of the Hellenes was ' Hellas', the area round Dodona in Epirus, according to Aristotle. In the Iliad it was the home of Achilles' Hellenes"

A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 77,1986

Quote: "... Greek gods too, especially Zeus the sky-god, were at home on Mt. Olympus and in Pieria, and the Zeus of Dodona derived his importance from the Bronze Age when he displaced a Mother Goddess and assimilated her as Aphrodite, ' Similar ...""

A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 39,1986

Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

A Historical Greek Reader: Mycenaean to the Koine,by Stephen Colvin,ISBN-10: 0199226601,2008,Page 40,"... (innovations) until the post-Mycenaean period.' In the late second millennium the proto- Aeolians seem to have occupied the regions between Epirus and Thessaly, ..."


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 4,"... 9mbracian V r 0 10 20 30 km I Gulf 32 Figure 1: Map of Epirus showing the locations of known sites with Mycenaean remains. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 6: "... and the mechanisms by which such interactions took place. The strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus is found in the coastal zone of the lower Acheron River, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 17: "... The Mycenaean Presence in Southwestern Epirus Taking into account the discoveries of the Nikopolis Project, remains of Mycenaean provenience or inspiration are known

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 18: "... and more gently on the south and west. From this acropolis-like settlement comes the strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus. A circuit wall employing Cyclopean masonry, muCh of which can still be traced, ..."


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 22: "... a fragmentary condition, it appears that the assemblage conforms in chronological and formal terms to Mycenaean pottery already known from Epirus. The kylix is the most commonly identifiable shape, with fewer sherds belonging to stirrup jars, kraters, cups, and other shapes. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 23: "... at Mazaraki in the interior of northern Epirus, of Aegean pottery and bronze objects as burial goods in Gist graves (Wardle 1977, 177, fig. 10 nos. 476, 477; ...


Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001, Page 24: "... There is no reason to imagine that these constructions in Epirus would have been among the first, although construction dates in the first half of LH IIIB are not unlikely. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 27: "... GLYKYS LIMIN /23 of domesticated cattle are found in excavated contexts in Epirus from late Neolithic times (Douzough and Zachos 1994, 17); Ephyra and the adjacent Nekyomanteion site have produced them alongside those ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 30: "... or luxury items of Mycenaean type-imported pottery and bronze weapons and utilitarian objects-were deposited primarily in graves and hoards throughout Epirus, ...

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 34: "... desires of those who possessed them to constrain or mobilize social action. In the case of Mycenaean engagement in coastal Epirus, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Table of Contents: "... A Mycenaean Port of Trade in Southern Epirus?

[akritas]

Originally Posted by boreans79

Who said that ? Ventris & Chadwick?
They definitely are wrong.

If Hammond (this is the first that spoken for mycenean civilization) is wrong what about the archaelogical evidence ?

Like the below ?




Do you have any 12rh century Illyrian artifact ?
of course I doubt if you have to present us and any other artifact that connect Epirotans with Illyrians.!!

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by boreans79

There is no doubt that Epirotes were NOT Ancient Greeks.

There is NO doubt that all quotes you brought here contradict themselves.

There is no doubt that only a very very small number of serious linguists have accepted the LINEAR B(mycenian script) to be an archaic form of Greek.

There is no doubt that even if we accept statements of Aristoteles and Claudius Ptolemy we must accept that Epirots have never been branch of Ancient Greeks, but the contrary Greeks being small branch of Epirots and Illyrians.

There is no doubt that ancient population of Hellas(like Mycenians, Argives, Achaians, Athenians, Arcadians, Leleges etc ) were clearly Pelasgians and NOT Greeks who came later (Dorians and Heraclides).

If you are smart then you can give us the reasons for your silly and easy comments because you just wrote a couple of crap with out any justification...where are your sources?what do you mean 'no doubt'?Can you explain yourself with scientific evidence?as for Linear B who said it is not an archaic from of Greek?Can you tell me?till now all the hundreds of scripts clearly show a Greek language and no historician can contradict this.What are your sources about Pelasgians and Illyrians?Are there any?beacause till now there is no evidence.
All the evidence about Mycenaeans,Argeans,Achaians etc etc definitely show they were Greek.How can you contradict that?With what evidence?The Pelasgians(sea people in Greek,pelagos in Greek means the sea,for example Aegean sea is Aigaio pelagos) might also had been Greek according to historicians
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/for...elasgians.html
and as for Illyrians they came long after the Mycenaean times and certainly they remained Barbarians without any serious organizations,so they were later Hellenised or Latinised.Their lack of civilization is the reason we do not know many things of them but surely none of them are the ancestors of the Albanians so Albania cannot establish a link with ancient times
Give us your 'sources' because what you wrote is without any archaeological or historic evidence and only imply political claims of Albania.Don't you think?

[boreans79]

Originally Posted by akritas

If Hammond (this is the first that spoken for mycenean civilization) is wrong what about the archaelogical evidence ?

Like the below ?

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7...tifactsir0.jpg.!!

Hammond could be right, however he never proved his theory linguistically.
My theory is that all the populations in the region were close to each other, Greeks, Illyrians, Epirotes.

Originally Posted by akritas

Do you have any 12rh century Illyrian artifact ?
of course I doubt if you have to present us and any other artifact that connect Epirotans with Illyrians.!!

These kind of artifacts are never a definite evidence. I easily can find these on the thracian land, skythian, and even in Egypt.