The Arch-Enemy is here!

[USA-Kiwi]

This is the person whom I'm sure that Orphic Hymn has been telling you about. I'm the expatriate New Zealander living in California, USA who has the effrontery to support the Turkish Cypriot people. Of course, that is sufficient in a lot of your eyes to my having taken out my own death warrant, but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus and that this forum is obsensively for the free airing of views, I just wonder how roughly I'm going to be received here.

Just for the record, I don't blindly support Turkey as there have been certain things that that country has done that I certainly do not support, but I support what I deem an inalienable right: the right of the Turkish Cypriot people to self-detemination, and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.

Dean Thomas.

[Slayer]

Originally Posted by USA-Kiwi

This is the person whom I'm sure that Orphic Hymn has been telling you about. I'm the expatriate New Zealander living in California, USA who has the effrontery to support the Turkish Cypriot people. Of course, that is sufficient in a lot of your eyes to my having taken out my own death warrant, but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus and that this forum is obsensively for the free airing of views, I just wonder how roughly I'm going to be received here.

Just for the record, I don't blindly support Turkey as there have been certain things that that country has done that I certainly do not support, but I support what I deem an inalienable right: the right of the Turkish Cypriot people to self-detemination, and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.

Dean Thomas.

Welcome to the forum Dean

I'm sure that as long as you stick to the forum rules you will be fine.

My question to you is do you agree in the right of self determination of the kurdish people in Turkey which make up a higher minority percentage in Turkey then the Turkish Cypriots do in the Republic of Cyprus?

In regards to Cyprus, do you not feel the British have anything to do with instigating the inter communal violence in Cyprus rather then blaming extremist Greek nationalism?

[Tsontos]

but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus

Hmmm makes me wonder about the situation like for TCs when a mob started destroying and burning Greek properties in Constantinople, all the while chanting "Cyprus is Turkish"; nearly 20 years before the "liberation" of Northern Cyprus?

Welcome anyway dean, where does a TC get a name like that?

[Hellas7]

Originally Posted by USA-Kiwi

and if the Turkish military presence is the only thing that is stopping the intercommunal violence from erupting, then I'm all for it.

Welcome to the forums first of all.


But what I quoted above, do you actually believe? You think if the Turkish military left Greek Cypriots would start massacreing Turks? Do you honestly believe that and can say it with a straight face?

[USA-Kiwi]

Okay....

As well as Turkish Cypriot self-determination, I do support Kurdish self-determination. The Kurds do deserve their own state. I don't believe allowing Kurdistan becoming independent would compromise the ideals of Ataturk's Republic of Turkey, just as I don't think allowing Northern Cyprus to be recognized would compromise the territory south of the Green Line, or the Hellenic Republic.

In regards to Cyprus, my doctrine can be summed up by this simile: A divorced couple cannot live peacefully together under the same roof. The partnership republic proved to be unworkable so partition - in my mind - is really the only solution. I have close friends who are Turkish Cypriot and I've been following the issue long enough to conclude that the Turkish Cypriots have been unfairly treated. We can all point fingers as to who is to blame for the intercommunal violence that racked the island, but I can't picture Turkish Cypriots feeling safe in a country that (a) wants to remove the constitutional safeguards enshrined in the 1960 Constitution. The Greek National Anthem being officially used as the Cypriot national anthem is hardly reassuring in itself. Makes an enosis statement, don't you think? Oh, and by the way, I oppose Turkish annexation of Northern Cyprus, just as much as I oppose Cyprus being absorbed into the Hellenic Republic.

Britain's role in Cyprus is something I can't really answer, save that I think the sovereign base areas should be ceded back to the Southern Cypriot government. Britian has played a lot of weird games with most of her former colonies in the past (causing nothing but mayhem in the process), and Cyprus would not be an exception to that rule. Still, coming from a country that teaches her children to adore Her Majesy Queen Elizabeth II, it's hard for me to say that the Union Jack does not represent all that is good. My wife (being of Irish Descent) makes her opinion VERY clear on that.

Dean.

[Tsontos]

Coming back to this:

but considering that I hold extremist Greek nationalism responsible for the situation on Cyprus

Which kind of nationalism was used by the British first to instigate intercommunal violence, Greek or Turkish? The answer is Turkish and given that how is Greek nationalism responsible for the situation in Cyprus but Turkish nationalism is not?

The British and Americans played Greek and Turkish nationalism in Cyprus like a fiddle (Still try to do so as well), the difference is that the Turks were the ones favoured in this instance, they got their "liberation".

Dont use Enosis like its an inherently evil term either. Even TCs voted to accept union with Greece because it was the logical thing to happen when when they make up less than 18% minority. Look at the Muslims in Thrace, are their rights abused? One things for sure is that they still live in in the place the Laussane treaty assured them, unlike the Greeks of Constantinople who were removed in a calculated move to agitage the situation in Cyprus.

[Orphic_Hymn]

So you finally managed..
Bravo to Kiwi (it was about time)

But don't celebrate that vanity, whomever has heard of you, does, due to their visit in Rachel's blog.

[Euklid]

Hello there Kiwi.

Kiwi, these events Cyprus, Kurdish issue, Macedonian Issue, Imvros and Tenedos, Imia all are geo-politics. You know that in geo-politics, many are the parties concerned.

Turkey and Greece follow generally the same lines. Ethnical Purity, ethnic cleansing. The thing is that Turkey was the Empire and Greece the freedom-fighter. Turkey in the past century, commited so many population movements, propably the largest in Human History. 1.5 million found the way to Athens, 353.000 Pontians found the way to Heaven, along with another million and something Armenians, Kurds will soon earn their place in the Parthenon of the Dead, The Syrians already have.

Then the Imvros and Tenedos Issue, the Open Prisons that these islands became. The 1955 Pogrom in Istanbul, the 1960's events in Cyprus ofc, are not justified due to all this history, but our sides both have found solutions in much worse aggressive policies from Turkey's part, Well you know what, solutions require mutual understanding, and the Greeks are used to backing down and allowing Turkey to re-affirm itself...The Turks have to understand that the time that we were their slaves is long gone, and the slaves will not always bow to the demands...Now its the ex-Mastres turm to bow and respect. In the 70's the Turkish minority was less than 10.000 people, now its more than 300.000 and 50.000 are the soldiers. The GC side has bargained a lot on the issue, and has offered the "right" to a joint government, it was rejected not by TC, but by Turkey.

If you look at the Issue as it is, a continuation of the Turkish policy within the Empire, you will understand a lot of things for example, The Imperial Syndrome that plagues the Turks and as your wife suggets even plagues Great Britain. If you isolate the issue in it self, you will start feeling pity for all the poor TC's that are not recognized by anybody and struggle to survive. I empathize them, i know plenty of them as well, first they will blame their own gov. and then Cyrpiot rejection. Most of these people are settlers, the houses they live in do not belong to them, they didnt build them on their own, and historical memory is more fresh than people think that it is.

This issue has come to be a stalemate due to Turkeys ego, not due to Greek nationalism.

A simple experiment: Ask a Turk, what is he proud for? And if the word "Army" is not there....
Ask a Turco-Cypriot, if his house was built by him?
Ask the Turkish government, why Ottoman titles to ownership are not valid?

And you know what, look at the Treaty of Lausanne, and make a check list, how many points has the Turkish goverment respected and how many points has the Greek side respected? This is not rocket science. A little bit of googling and a little bit of maths.

Ofc, empathising with people is not bad, but the other side is not always to blame for....and if it is, please explain to me how and why Greek nationalism, affects the outcome of this political issue?

And in the end, you can always ask the neighbors...Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...

Cheers.

[oldjedi]

To Kiwi ..

What you say , roughly is that in a FREE country , where 98% of the population is negroes and 2% of the population is caucasians , it is the absolute right of the neighboring caucasian country to invade , the first mentioned FREE country , and by occupying a portion of this FREE country , to establish a caucasian state ...
This , my friend , is pure and clean racism ....
On the other hand , you say that this 2% have the right od self-determination , yes ?
This applies of course to ALL MINORITIES , i am sure .. The Chinese in USA , the Native Indians in USA , the Mexicans in USA , ANY minority in USA , the French in Quebec , the natives in New Zeeland , the Aborigins in Australia , and so on , people that have more than a 2% in their countries ... Is that correct ??
As you understand , i am sure , this kind of political reasoning is out of any logic.
IF there was national violations in Cyprus from the Greek Cypriots part , i am sure that you have resolutions of UN and EU , condemning them ...
Can you post some of these resolutions ??

Thanks in advance .

P.S By the way , I happen to have UN resolutions pointing that the TC's were conducting acts of violence against the GreekCypriots , with the help of Turkey ...

Old.

[Flipper]

I think most of you have covered me. But I want to emphasize the comment of Voulgaroktonos. If you and your people USA-Kiwi want to examine the violence in Cyprus and open you eyes, you would see that the real enemies of the Greeks and the Turks in Cyprus were the Brittish. Both Greek and Turks fell because they rebelled against them. Karaolis, Dimitriou etc. I'm sure you have some turkish names as well. So, why does Turkey never mention anything about the Britts that misstreated both our nations? Why fight alone in this front while you keep your mouth shut (I'm talking about official actions).