Albanian language

[PAO123]

Can anyone prove to me that the Albanian language is not similar with Illirian since I am having an argument with an Albanian about it. Thanks :)

[Tsontos]

No it cannot be proved, nor can it be proved that it is similar with illyrian. this is because there is absolutley no record of the illyrian language. zilch. for that matter there is no written records of albanian until during the 1st millenium AD

those who consider albanian to be the descendent of illyrian due to its uniqueness in the region and not due to any record of illyrian.

[Ptolemy]

Have a read to this topic. Maybe it will help

http://mobydicks.com/lecture/Herodotushall/read.php?f=73&i=116&t=5&v=f

[Ptolemy]

Some random quotes to use in order to make Albanians mad.

"Roman culture absorbed that of the Illyrians. Those Illyrians who did not assimilate probably moved to the less hospitable mountainous areas, but little is known of their fate. They are as mysterious as the Etruscans, the pre-Roman occupants of the Italian peninsula."

pp.10 Fred Singleton, "The Yugoslav Peoples", Cambridge Press University, 1989




"The lack of early references to the Albanians is not significant, And if the Illyrians were proto-Albanians, the argument does not stand because sources mention Illyrians there earlier. We should not that the Vlachs are not mentioned anywhere in this period either....Moreover the Albanians did not have a single ancestor in one or the other of these pre-Slav peoples; the present-day Albanians are an ethnic mixture and in addition to this main ancestor they contain an admixture of Slavic, Greek, Vlach and Romano-Italian ancestry."

John VA Fine, "The Early Medieval Balkans", Michigan University Press, 1991

"Some Albanian archaelogists have tried hard to show that the Koman hill-town culture of the seventh and eight centuries is the essential proof of Albanian-Illyrian continuity; but material remains do not tell us what language people spoke, and the main affinities seem to have been with the Latin-speaking Romano-Byzantine towns of the previous centuries....Certainly the tribes of the ancient Illyrians, political groupings covering large areas and heavily stratified with a powerful ruling caste, were quite different from the modern Albanian clans".


Noel Malcolm, "Kosovo a Short History", Harper Perennial Press, NY, 1999

"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."


John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992

"Today's Albanians have absolutely no connection with the Illyrians, but being examined from every angle they are proven as being fully Turks."


Ahmet Aydinli, "Balkan Biography IMXA", 1973



CONTINUTY BETWEEN BOSNIAKS AND ILLYRIANS (PRE-ILLYRIANS OF THE NEOLITHIC)


John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:


(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75

(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219

(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219

(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220

(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40

[Orphic_Hymn]

Can anyone prove to me that the Albanian language is not similar with Illirian since I am having an argument with an Albanian about it. Thanks :)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Everyone get in this argument eventually....

OK, heres what I used to use and worked out quite fine...
(I'm quoting the posts..so don't misunderstand them as directed towards you)


If we look at what some linguists have said, we once again see that the possibility of Albanians being connected to Illyria is "slim"

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.);
R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id.,
'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.);
G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).
-----------

The following scholars consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found..

Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.
Fasmer, M. The Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.

--------


Illyrian-Albanian words :

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMË, RRYMË, CURRIL, RRËKE, PËRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOÇAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VËLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHËM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKËLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDËRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTË, THANTË
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFË
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZË
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBËSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRË, DASHUR, SJELLSHËM

Sources for the Illyrian words:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.

English-Albo translator:
www.foreignword.com

It is also interesting that while we know that the Serbs came to their present area approx. in the 7th cent. (if not later) we find some quite interesting connections:

llirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant

Does this mean that the Slavs are also decendants of the Illyrians or is it only your right to have a vivid imagination????
------------------


Proof that Albanians are not native to the lands in question :



The original population of the city was replaced to a certain extent by an influx of Albanians from the countryside.
That Albanian must have been widely spoken on the coastal plains and mountain regions at the time can be inferred from Simon’s initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i.e. Albanian. Within the city of Durrës, however, the ‘barbaric Albanians’ are referred to only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication that they may not yet have formed the majority group.

Interestingly enough, Simon refers to the Albanian barbarians in Dubrovnik too, stating: �In eadem dominantur Venetii, et ad eam confluunt Sclavi, Barbari, Paterini et alii cismatici negotiatores qui sunt gestu, habitu et lingua Latinis in omnibus difformes�
(The Venetians dominate in it [Dubrovnik] and Slavs, Barbarians, Paterines and other schismatic merchants frequent it, who are entirely different from the Latins in their customs, dress and language).

Throughout its history from antiquity to the beginning of the twentieth century, Durrës had a very hybrid population structure with a strongly varying proportion of Albanians. Only relatively recently have the Albanians come to constitute a definitive majority there, and only in the last quarter of a century have the ubiquitous white hats which Simon Fitzsimons marvelled at in 1322 come to disappear.

http::www.elsie.de


1038, 1042, 1078
Michael Attaleiates:
The First Byzantine References

Michael Attaleiates was a Byzantine lawyer and historian who rose to high office under the emperors Romanus IV (r. 1067-1071) and Michael VII (r. 1071-1078). His 'History', covering the years 1034-1079, is a largely eyewitnessed account of political and military events in the Byzantine Empire. It was during this period that the Byzantine Greeks first took note of the Albanians as a people.

When the Emperor Michael (1), who passed away in piety and whose home is known to have been the province of Paphlagonia, took up the sceptre of the Byzantine Empire, the Agarene (2) people in Sicily in the West were defeated by Byzantine naval and land forces.
And had not the well-known George Maniakes, who had been entrusted with the general command, been eliminated on the slanderous accusation that he was hungry for power, and had not the military command of the war been transferred to others, that large and renowned island, blessed with large cities knowing no lack of precious goods, would still be under Byzantine control. Now, however, jealousy has destroyed not only the man and his endeavours, but also that enormous undertaking (3). For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...

Constantine IX Monomachos (4) proved to be more benevolent on the imperial throne than his predecessor. He conveyed imperial honours and gifts to almost everyone with ambition, and delighted his subjects. Suddenly storm clouds gathered in the West and threatened him with nothing less than destruction and expulsion from the throne. The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities. He caused great turmoil in the rest of the army opposing him and took it over. After having set up his camp at a two days' march from Thessalonika, he made his attack on the imperial camp in the evening...

When this had taken place and the usurpers had gradually calmed down, another disaster began to take its course and to spread like a poisonous weed intent on destroying the crops. The danger came from the city of Epidamnus (Durrës). The Protoprohedros Duke Basiliakes, who had been sent there by the emperor, having succeeded in avoiding Bryennius and withdrawing from Adrianopole, took over Durrës and assembled an army there from all the surrounding regions. By soliciting support for his side by means of substantial gifts, he succeeded in having the Franks enter his territory from Italy and attempted to make use of them for his side. By various pretences and means, he collected money from everyone under his order and command, set up a list and used as a pretext for this arms buildup the fact that he intended to attack Bryennius as a renegade. Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika...

(1) Michael IV (r. 1034-1041).
(2) i.e. the Arabs.
(3) i.e. the recapture of Sicily in 1038-1040.
(4) Constantine IX (r. 1042-1055).

[Extracts from: Michaelis Attaliotae: Historia, Bonn 1853, p. 8, 18, 297. Translated by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 4-5.]

http::www.elsie.de


Note that Robert Elsie is considered the top authority in Albanian histoy...

Hope these help...

[HellenicPride]

Those Albanians trying to create history for themselves lol. They have absolutely nothing to do with the Illyrians.

[PAO123]

Thank you everybody.

[PAO123]

editted....

[Minimalistix]

i know its not of the language, but next time u argue with an Albanian, refer them to this - http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/epirus-forum/981-maps-albanias-origin.html#post6903

[Hermes]

Can anyone tell where comes these illyrians words?
its told that they hadnt let texts or sth else....or those are an invention like others...?
refering to roman influence there's an e.x : ''angry''(in english)
in Alb. its ''inat'' and in Latin (classic one) ''ira'' n~r
Before the classic roman period the Latin language has the ''t'' at the end of the word ,than in the classic texts ''t'' disappear. Illyria was invaded by Rome in the III-I A.D., the time they didnt use ''t'' at the end.
1)may be illyrians had learned all the old latin at school even they lived in the mountains ....
2)may be populations had moved or influenced in Lacium before Rome State.
Any other posibility?
About the phonetic rules in albanian, whose that such expert to give an argument, does he knows albanian to be in grade to explain its rules?

[Ervald]

Looks like the slavic propaganda is deep inside you, but I'm not worried much cause I know the greek majority and what they think.

How can you proove something that some so called 'names' on the internet or books said?

Like the albanian of today and the illyrians, they lived in tribes and not in big cities, big cities were usually trade centers of the romans/hellenes.

We didnt had our own alphabet, but we used greek/latin one.
The language was kept through generation from mouth to mouth.
Just liek the tribes names and their kings, Bardhylis, teuta etc etc all have albanian meanings. when my grandfather's last name is Bardhi (hence king bardhyl=meaning white man or white star) and there was never mentioned in ym family tree and mixing with a foreigner, something like that was the worse thing for our people.

As you know there is still the Kanun law of 15 th century, an Albanian can marry only Albanian and so on and people are still following that law (mostly in the north and kosova).
We have same pagan gods just like them and same farytales.

and again, dont fall to any propaganda, especially you greeks, cause I dont see any reason, our enemy are the sllavs and the turks

[HellenicPride]

Albanians are an enemy as well dont forget that. Its your people that sided with the Turks to slaughter Greeks and its your people that make claims for our Hellenic land not us. So as you can see you fall into that category. Also its your people that are desecrating Christian churches throughout Kosovo and parts of Serbia. You really have some nerve..

[Ervald]

Albanians are an enemy as well dont forget that. Its your people that sided with the Turks to slaughter Greeks and its your people that make claims for our Hellenic land not us. So as you can see you fall into that category. Also its your people that are desecrating Christian churches throughout Kosovo and parts of Serbia. You really have some nerve..

See you know what Im talking, you know nothing about history, the slavic propaganda is deep inside your veins..the fools will die foolish u know.

Since when are we your enemy? Since when are countries so lovely with each other? give me an example?
If im not mistaken serbia controlled half of greece..right? your brothers?
I wouldnt call it like that, If you accept that the slavic Serbs are your brothers, that means that you are not a greek ..right?

Those oldest christian churches in Kosova region arent Serbian, the serbs just made them their own!

And dont bring religion for this matter, religion is the history and the country of the sllavs they dont have anything else.. Like the Bosnians, they are mostly Muslim Serbs..what amkes them different? Religion, so that is theis main history between serbs and bosnians.

You been calling me a mongol wihout knowing me, im telling you again none of my people mixed with any invader, I know my fmaily roots long before the turks came in our lands, and we took control of our land so we never had to pay taxes, or to have turkish colonies in our lands, hence Ali Pasha of Tepelena.

So next time dont mention any religion, if you want to know about religion then you should know that

christianity+islam=judaism the root ;) they both come from the middle east and have nothing to do with your hellenic genes or your ancestors.
It's shame though you have greek pagan ruins with the christian flag who stole every pagan celebration.

xairete kai pali

[akritas]

Ervald most of the Greeks in these forum are from diaspora and they have learned what "dish served" from theirs sources.
Its up to you to show them what is your nation and how close we are.
Bur I am against in this that you said as about the Slavic propagnda.

The South FYROMacedonians in Pelagonia Region are close to the Greek people as also the South Albanians in North Epirus region.

So we must keep calm and avoid tensions.Give us your arguments and we give ours in an polite debate.

[Ervald]

All I know is that the sllavs took most of my land, also some of yours.

And they keep doing it.

I know what you mean ,cause I have plenty of greek friends here in Greece and they dont think like that.

But that doesnt mean that any person can talk wrong about me or my people, thats a bad image for the internet, they are increasing the diaspora haters who cant even speak the mother tongue

[akritas]

All I know is that the sllavs took most of my land, also some of yours.

And they keep doing it.

I know what you mean ,cause I have plenty of greek friends here in Greece and they dont think like that.

But that doesnt mean that any person can talk wrong about me or my people, thats a bad image for the internet, they are increasing the diaspora haters who cant even speak the mother tongue
I know and as I am mod here I will try to keep these debates with civil manners.
But to say quotes such....Slavs-Greeks-Albanians took this and that...... is a offending action and calling nationalism.And I think we must avoid this kind of quotes.

[Tsontos]

You been calling me a mongol wihout knowing me, im telling you again none of my people mixed with any invader, I know my fmaily roots long before the turks came in our lands, and we took control of our land so we never had to pay taxes, or to have turkish colonies in our lands, hence Ali Pasha of Tepelena.


Theres some wishful thinking. You paid less taxes or no taxes because you adopted the faith of the invader. Its not about Christian-Judaism but more betraying one's history and identity. Someone who is not religious like me can see that this is a shameful period for your people who rallied under Kastriotis before the turks overran the place. quite a few Greeks betrayed themselves as well for personal gain and favour with the occupier. and unfortunatley the worst part of this, the bands of turko-albanians are a historical fact and not slavic or Greek propaganda. and about the so-called "alliances" , theres an alliance which is both historical and religious between the turks and albanians and it still exists in the minds of the countries' respective nationalists. for example:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5789/xaxaxbravosasey6.jpg

I have nothing against Albanians though and I am with akritas when he says we should avoid talking about "Slavs are all the same" or "Albanians are all tourkoalbanians". This forum's main goal is to fight historical revisionism, provide a wealth and variety of sources on Macedonia and the wider region for visitors, not to promote ethnic tension

About the topic, there is not enough or any linguistic records to connect the Illyrian language with Albanian. There may indeed be a link, im not sure. i do know that there isnt enough data or any concensus on the matter.

[Orphic_Hymn]

We didnt had our own alphabet, but we used greek/latin one.


Actually the first alphabet (1500's) was a mixture of Hellenic, Latin and Arabic letters. But there were regions where a purely Hellenic, purely Arabic and a mixture of the two was used.

Since when are we your enemy? Since when are countries so lovely with each other? give me an example?

Well 'enemy' may not be the accurate term, but one can note the long history of oppression during the Ottoman era, the events during the Italian invasion or even during German occupation. One could also mention the well known bus hijacker (A.Pisli) that is celebrated as a hero in Albania..
Not exactly what can be titled 'friendly' if you see what I mean.

[Ervald]

then if we are turko mongols why dont we ask to build any arabic temple in greece?

what are 'we' muslims doing in greece? most of us go to churches

Orphic_Hymn: As I said, we never had our own alphabet, we use greek, altin and differnt others writen language but not our own.
that doesnt mean that my grandparents could speak greek or turkish!

Voulgaroktonos: Me as an Albanian, im very pissed with the group holding that thing on the match.
I really cant say anything, the reason is because we dont have turks in albania, we have gypsies and other kind, so its kinda confusing.
They might be albanian minority living in turkey and came to see the match.



but in anyway the albanians arent that group!
I saw a group of greeks in Eksarhia burning greek flags...see what i mean.

if we were turko friends we wouldnt have our hero Scanderbeg, and we wouldnt have his flag!

and dont forget that turkey is against Dardania(kosova) independence.

and one last thing,, because our goverment is fucked up, you dont have to blaim the people. dont blaim us for the wars. it was italy and germany who invaded you, not us, they just used us.

[HellenicPride]

See you know what Im talking, you know nothing about history, the slavic propaganda is deep inside your veins..the fools will die foolish u know.

Since when are we your enemy? Since when are countries so lovely with each other? give me an example?
If im not mistaken serbia controlled half of greece..right? your brothers?
I wouldnt call it like that, If you accept that the slavic Serbs are your brothers, that means that you are not a greek ..right?

Those oldest christian churches in Kosova region arent Serbian, the serbs just made them their own!

And dont bring religion for this matter, religion is the history and the country of the sllavs they dont have anything else.. Like the Bosnians, they are mostly Muslim Serbs..what amkes them different? Religion, so that is theis main history between serbs and bosnians.

You been calling me a mongol wihout knowing me, im telling you again none of my people mixed with any invader, I know my fmaily roots long before the turks came in our lands, and we took control of our land so we never had to pay taxes, or to have turkish colonies in our lands, hence Ali Pasha of Tepelena.

So next time dont mention any religion, if you want to know about religion then you should know that

christianity+islam=judaism the root ;) they both come from the middle east and have nothing to do with your hellenic genes or your ancestors.
It's shame though you have greek pagan ruins with the christian flag who stole every pagan celebration.

xairete kai pali

If you know your family roots then you know you are not Illyrian and two that you are not a European people. Religion has a lot to play with the hostilities your people and the Turks commited. Also religion is what kept my ancestors together under 500 years of Ottoman occupation.

[HellenicPride]

Ervald most of the Greeks in these forum are from diaspora and they have learned what "dish served" from theirs sources.
Its up to you to show them what is your nation and how close we are.
Bur I am against in this that you said as about the Slavic propagnda.

The South FYROMacedonians in Pelagonia Region are close to the Greek people as also the South Albanians in North Epirus region.

So we must keep calm and avoid tensions.Give us your arguments and we give ours in an polite debate.


Akritas you know what now your talking nonsense. So because some of us Greeks are from diaspora we know nothing? Give me a break America is not the only place with historical sources. I see how it is if someone does not agree with your ideologies you like to use the excuse oh they are from diaspora they know nothing. Μαλακιες λεες τωρα.

You know what you can all sit here and let these Albos, Skopjians and Bulgarians in here patting them on the back telling them dont worry its ok we are friends but meanwhile dare go to their forums they ban you and ridicule you and your history at the same time. Some of you really amaze me. Anyways have a good time on here.

Note my comments are not meant for all Greeks on here their are some real good ones that I like.

[akritas]

Akritas you know what now your talking nonsense. So because some of us Greeks are from diaspora we know nothing? Give me a break America is not the only place with historical sources. I see how it is if someone does not agree with your ideologies you like to use the excuse oh they are from diaspora they know nothing. Μαλακιες λεες τωρα.

You know what you can all sit here and let these Albos, Skopjians and Bulgarians in here patting them on the back telling them dont worry its ok we are friends but meanwhile dare go to their forums they ban you and ridicule you and your history at the same time. Some of you really amaze me. Anyways have a good time on here.

Note my comments are not meant for all Greeks on here their are some real good ones that I like.
Άσε να λέω εγώ τις μαλακίες μου και εσύ να λες τις φιλοσοφίες σου.
Of course these are my beleives and my morales. Many times I said that any nationalist reaction from any side (Skopjan,Albanian,Greek e.t.c.) will be find me against it. Erveld came here with his ideas.Debate him, debate his ideas and leave out the known arguments that you can encounter in the known forums(maknes, albanian.com).I cant speak for the line of this forum because I am not the administrator.I speak for my self only. If anyone disagree is free to express his opinon like you.

[Euklid]

Hellenic pride, the people that discrimiante on race and utilize phrases such as Turco-Mongols without any back up,are no different than the idiots we are working against.

As relaity tells us, these people are diaspora people, this doesnt mean that the diaspora is beign demonized, this means that the ones that believe in this crap and produce politically incorrect statements are the ones to blame, not everybody.

These generalizations are worthless.

[HellenicPride]

What makes people with my opinions wrong? None of you have the right to judge my opinions on those people that we speak of and that is a damn fact. It has nothing to do with nationalism, fascism, communism or anything like that its a damn opinion plain and simple. I dont like them never did Bulgars, Albos, Turks and Skopjians. Why all because of history and present situations plain and simple.

My opinion on Albanians not being Illyrians is my opinion. It has never been proven that they are or that they are not. So I stand strong on this. Until history proves otherwise I will not change my opinion.

To the Albo I guess you dont like it when someone says stuff like that huh? Just imagine how I feel when I visit an Albanians site and all they do is make these wild claims on Greek history, lands and call it your own.

Also to the Albo who claims that the Slavs took land from you. None of the land you live on is yours to begin with. What land belongs to you historically Im very curious?

[Euklid]

Go check, "the Fyrom best one liner gems" thread and then reflect on your fabulous statements.

The same way that people generalize according to one individual, the same way, people should double-check what is written and what is not.

The Turco-Mongol statement does not belong here.

[HellenicPride]

Who are you to decide? If the Admin or moderators dont like it they can remove it. Who made you leader?

[Flipper]

Calm down guys.
Everyone has the right to express opinions including Ervald. This forums has people from other countries because like Akritas said we're open for any civilized discussions. So, Ervald and any other kind person like him should feel free to support his opinions when they do not insult anyone.

And as we have said before, lets avoid any insulting words towards other ethnicities. I will cite DeanHellenes signature from Alexanders Oath.


Alexander The Great

I do not discriminate as the narrow minded do between Hellenes and Barbarians. I am neither interested in the origin of citizens nor the race in which they were born. I distinguish them with only one criterion, goodness. For me, every good foreigner is a Hellene and every bad Hellene is a Barbarian


Let the first antiracism expression in History be our line on this forum.

[Euklid]

:laugh:

Who made me...say what?

Even though i have a feel that most understand this...i will say it loud and clear:

I have no leader, and i do not feel like beign leader upon anyone.

Your crap and the rest nationalistic crap is what discourages me and at the same time diminishes my own image, cause i am using this forum constructively.

If you havent realized already, this is the definition of "ekthetw".

Diafora asimanta threads exoun ekthesei tin akeraiotita.

Poios to vlepei ayto?:huh: :wacko:

What is the answer dear for the Albanian?

[HellenicPride]

:laugh:

Who made me...say what?

Even though i have a feel that most understand this...i will say it loud and clear:

I have no leader, and i do not feel like beign leader upon anyone.

Your crap and the rest nationalistic crap is what discourages me and at the same time diminishes my own image, cause i am using this forum constructively.

If you havent realized already, this is the definition of "ekthetw".

Diafora asimanta threads exoun ekthesei tin akeraiotita.

Poios to vlepei ayto?:huh: :wacko:

What is the answer dear for the Albanian?

Personally I couldnt care less about opinions I dont agree with them. So you can keep rambling on and go play with your Albanian friend. I consider the matter closed.

[Euklid]

Matter closed.

[Ervald]

What makes people with my opinions wrong? None of you have the right to judge my opinions on those people that we speak of and that is a damn fact. It has nothing to do with nationalism, fascism, communism or anything like that its a damn opinion plain and simple. I dont like them never did Bulgars, Albos, Turks and Skopjians. Why all because of history and present situations plain and simple.

My opinion on Albanians not being Illyrians is my opinion. It has never been proven that they are or that they are not. So I stand strong on this. Until history proves otherwise I will not change my opinion.

To the Albo I guess you dont like it when someone says stuff like that huh? Just imagine how I feel when I visit an Albanians site and all they do is make these wild claims on Greek history, lands and call it your own.

Also to the Albo who claims that the Slavs took land from you. None of the land you live on is yours to begin with. What land belongs to you historically Im very curious?

nono as a normal person I will say that, those albanians you see on forums are from diaspora, albanians who are born in usa or have been there for many years.

Is that the way you learn about albanian?

[Theodosivs]

Also to the Albo who claims that the Slavs took land from you. None of the land you live on is yours to begin with. What land belongs to you historically Im very curious?

This makes no sense. Albs dont base such claims on your opinion...

[Hermes]

We can say what we want,we cant change anything in particular, just make sick our mind.
You want proves about Illy.-Alb. connection, right, but who wrote history and how were them in doing that?
All orthodoxs were called greeks( like the Arberesh in south Italy) and you run to prove all it as true.If u want to make Greece with what have been called ''greek'', ok go on, but that could be a bastard nation, bcz all that is no true, anyway is your question.
I wonder about you ''New Hellines'' proud of your antic ancestors, looking your present, your flag, and what you claim for.What's similar? How was the Hellenic mentality and how the orthodox is? How could this be normal, when the second killed with violence the first?
It has been a great Hellenic culture&influence and has been an orthodox too.No one can put it down. The problem is : what we are pretending.
To put out Balcans ''Caucasus Albs" or to put out the slaves(serbs,croates,bulgarians..etc)?????
As u make your claims , i make mines : Alb language has been spoken more than 4000 years before.It hasnt been any alb antic university to say that, but words and others let by historians and cultures prove it. There are most of the names of your Hellenic Godness explained just from albanian,Etrusc language, Egyptian Godness( Amon, Ra, Zat, Faraon,deltas, Maat, Sia, every one can be explained by albanian having present their atributes)in Bible u can find little stories with very good elements, may be Christ had spoke it too. Homer not speaking new greek, wrote how he knew, and many of his words are excatly albanian(after 2800years)many other changed others diapeared.
U may say those are just coincidense.Why so much? why no way to explain from other languages?
If it was true,and first christians knew it, what would be the duty of the Christianity(practical not teorical one)?We know some of what they did, we know too what Catholics made in the NEW WORD to spread the name of The Son Of The GOD and His lessons.Blood, hate,slavery, discrimination,destroying the culture what was written and all that was diferent from their barbary.

Even to u wasnt told by your churches, the Orthodox did the same to the HELLENIC IDENTITY & ''barbar-illyrian''. I wonder about ''YOU HELLINES'' to be proud of all that.I as an Alb in heart and mind cant forget Islam barbary and even Christian one.As u see my nickname is HERMES, not Muhamet or Christian-Jewish one. I would ofend my identity, my culture, my Ancestors .

That has been in history Christianity, not too diferent from Islam, but it had a ''civilizated'' Politic inside that made it worse in a sense.How could Hellines put the Cross in their Flag(1821-30~)?
can anyone of u say if there was a pure Hellenic identity there or just hate for invasors and Islam?Or may be those were hellenizated(''barbar'') popution that had nothing else in comon with Hellines?And than them claim all the past-antic history of that land.Why cant it be possible.
With Islam u made the best,THNX for it, but what about Hellenic identity? Identity is not whats written in history or paper, its in traditions , language and others.About traditions what do u have in common with Hellines,is there anything to do with the ass?(sory for saying that, but it can be a great prove)By the other, all yours is christianity.
If there were some ''greeks''(arvanites) albanised in 150-200 years from some ''ignorant barbars'', what can we say about (year)1453 years and more before and after of Greek Culture, Language, Bizantyne Empire?? they could greeked many populations, may be you too. I have the idea that when Latin Lords in 13th century called these ''albanised greeks'' in Greece they wrote that there were entire empty areas. Where went Hellines? Having present that Turks killed too many others than, others emigrated and so on, it get to be no one. Who are you? We know who serbs are,but for you its no problem , those all are orthodox.

[Ervald]

well said Hermes

[Tsontos]

You guys are just like turks, forgetting what kind of a role religion played for the whole region. Because of Ataturk they have become all secular and now beleive religion never played a major role in their history and are ashamed to see what a role it did. I dont even beleive in god yet I recognise what a huge role religion played in the whole region.

How could Hellines put the Cross in their Flag(1821-30~)?

How can albanians have the Byzantine flag as theri flag?

[Amarantos]

..........................Or may be those were hellenizated(''barbar'') popution that had nothing else in comon with Hellines?And than them claim all the past-antic history of that land.Why cant it be possible...................

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: quite amusing the whole post.
I held this part so as to invite you to a place called Tyrnavos in the region of Thessalia,where a nice feast takes place during carnival celebrations. People (greek christians maybe?) go around the city holding dicks in their hands.Who knows why? :laugh:
Go check some ancient pottery if you want to see pictures of the event ;)
For the rest....talk is cheep

[Hellas7]

All orthodoxs were called greeks( like the Arberesh in south Italy) and you run to prove all it as true.

By who?

And who has ever called the Arberesh in Italy Greeks?


If u want to make Greece with what have been called ''greek'', ok go on, but that could be a bastard nation, bcz all that is no true, anyway is your question.


This makes no sense.


I wonder about you ''New Hellines'' proud of your antic ancestors, looking your present, your flag, and what you claim for.What's similar? How was the Hellenic mentality and how the orthodox is? How could this be normal, when the second killed with violence the first?


The "antic" Greeks are the ones who accepted Christianity smart guy.


It has been a great Hellenic culture&influence and has been an orthodox too.No one can put it down. The problem is : what we are pretending.

Again, I cannot understand what you are saying.

But nevertheless, alot of Ancient Greek culture made it's way into Christian, traditions, myths, even in the bible (from Anicent Greek religion). There was a fusion to a certain extent.


To put out Balcans ''Caucasus Albs" or to put out the slaves(serbs,croates,bulgarians..etc)?????

what?

As u make your claims , i make mines : Alb language has been spoken more than 4000 years before.It hasnt been any alb antic university to say that, but words and others let by historians and cultures prove it. There are most of the names of your Hellenic Godness explained just from albanian,Etrusc language, Egyptian Godness( Amon, Ra, Zat, Faraon,deltas, Maat, Sia, every one can be explained by albanian having present their atributes)in Bible u can find little stories with very good elements, may be Christ had spoke it too. Homer not speaking new greek, wrote how he knew, and many of his words are excatly albanian(after 2800years)many other changed others diapeared.
U may say those are just coincidense.Why so much? why no way to explain from other languages?

What the hell are you even talking about?



Even to u wasnt told by your churches, the Orthodox did the same to the HELLENIC IDENTITY & ''barbar-illyrian''. I wonder about ''YOU HELLINES'' to be proud of all that.I as an Alb in heart and mind cant forget Islam barbary and even Christian one.As u see my nickname is HERMES, not Muhamet or Christian-Jewish one. I would ofend my identity, my culture, my Ancestors .

If you are talking about Christian supression of Ancient religion, yes Greeks know of that. Some Greeks accepted Christianity fast, some later. What difference does it make and what is your point?

Somehow Albanians are neither Muslim or Christian, and this is supposed to somehow be linked with an ancient people and not decades of communism? You makeing NO SENSE.

And my name is HELLAS, that is an ancient name. My cousins name is Pericles, another Alexandros, another Aristotelis, my friends name is Athena, another friend Fillipos.... should I go on or do you see how assbackwards this is?


And do you know how many Albanians have Christian names?

Panajot? Sotir? Gjergj? Kostandin? etc...


I wonder about Islamic names also....


How could Hellines put the Cross in their Flag(1821-30~)?
can anyone of u say if there was a pure Hellenic identity there or just hate for invasors and Islam?


How can Albanians use the Byzantine as their flag? (Christian)


Or may be those were hellenizated(''barbar'') popution that had nothing else in comon with Hellines?And than them claim all the past-antic history of that land.Why cant it be possible.

Because the language was consistently spoken, non-Greeks were assimilated, this means Greeks were in the majority, otherwise it would have been the other way around.

There has to be Greeks to Hellenize "barbars". :rolleyes:


With Islam u made the best,THNX for it,

Huh?

but what about Hellenic identity? Identity is not whats written in history or paper, its in traditions , language and others.About traditions what do u have in common with Hellines,is there anything to do with the ass?(sory for saying that, but it can be a great prove)By the other, all yours is christianity.

Many traditions are the same, names (both people and cities etc...) Even within Christianity as I said, I don't have time to list on and on. Also what about the Greek language smart guy? Forgot that little fact? Don't you have eyes, isn't the obvious... obvious?


If there were some ''greeks''(arvanites) albanised in 150-200 years from some ''ignorant barbars'' what can we say about (year)1453 years and more before and after of Greek Culture, Language, Bizantyne Empire?? they could greeked many populations, may be you too.

Many people were "greeked", but they had to be "greeked" by.... Greeks. Get the point?

And what are you supposed to be anyway, a direct descendent of some stupid Illyrians?


I have the idea that when Latin Lords in 13th century called these ''albanised greeks'' in Greece they wrote that there were entire empty areas. Where went Hellines? Having present that Turks killed too many others than, others emigrated and so on, it get to be no one. Who are you? We know who serbs are,but for you its no problem , those all are orthodox.

Then all you have to do is read a little more. Just because the Peloponnesos was depopulated, first of all does not mean all areas where Greeks were. Constantinople, Thessaloniki, all major cities, Asia Minor, the islands and many rural areas throughout the empire where populated by Greeks. Just because the areas Arvanites settled were depopulated does not mean it all was.

Just open a history book

[Flipper]

Re eimaste kala? Sto forum gia thn Epiro milame gia thn Albanikh glwssa? Afou xeretai pou pigainei auto...

[Hermes]

The eagle has been as a simbol more before Bizant.As u know Bizant(Kostandinopoli) was built by Kostandin the Great,and he was Illyrian, from Nissus, or do u want to make it greek too? Many others emprors were Illyrians too.I heard the Eagle has been as a simbol more than 9000 years ago, which population , i dont know, the autocton sure. Dont ask me about the source, i would only ofend myself if i would play lieing.If the source lies it would be a common problem than.

About religion, its true, it played a great role in the region, but it will be a shame for us( the young generation) not only what happened in the past, but what is happening now too.Islam and Christianity are not of European Identity, those are Asiatic fanatisem and worse. History shows it.
It wasnt my fault that my ancestors escaped from Arberia bcz of turk barbaria, even of my parents there, that under the genocide become muslim, bcz the
Patriakana of Istambul didnt protect them, and the Catholic one in Rome abandoned them bcz them took formal muslim names to escape discrimination, and they still wanted to be christian in everyday life.But 5 centuries were much.And today u can go in Albania, and see the churches and mosque,just few old persons and any withoutbrain of the society.This bcz even after 2000 years those are for people non-Albanian, non-Europian. Its not our identity there.As u said for the role , its realy true, and thats why albanians loosed too much, they had no christian aleats.Imagine yourself in 1821 without Rusia and others, may be it will be called still Greece, but would be not any Christian Greek there(u know about Armenians).

In italy all orthodox were and are called in general Greeks,no matter of nationality.Greek church(bcz the churches of the Arberesh have greek letters), Greek beautiness(for girls,see the film ''the godfather'', michael corleone in sicily)Greek people etc...but no one here felt that way.
If u see a map of Sicily before 50 years , near Palermo, u will find Piana dei Grecci,but after Greek state political presion on alb-identity they turned the name in the Piana dei Albanessi.(it was called of ''the greeks'' by the forigners(as albania too)and now bcz its a big problem to that way , that use ''of the albanians'')Also many Arberesh orthodox Nobils in mideval Italy are found sometimes in leters like ''X the greek'' their discedents today are very proud of being Alb-Arb, why would they lie if they were greeks.May be this is enough.

About the acception of the christianity by the antic greeks, u have to divide the Aristocracy and the simple People.The first had all interest about it, the last were cut in blood to accept it.It will be foolish too, that a culture like Hellines one would accept the Christian teory&filozofy.Those are so diferent.May be u dont know well those both.

Its true Ancient Greek Culture made its way into Christian one,refering what i said above , it would be a good way to be accepted.About Bible, its so dificult to explain, but as we know, jewish knew to do sth beter than other people.

[HellenicPride]

Thats what you get for letting Albanians come to a Greek forum. Then people wonder why I dont like Albanians. Isn't this enough?

[Ptolemy]

The eagle has been as a simbol more before Bizant.As u know Bizant(Kostandinopoli) was built by Kostandin the Great,and he was Illyrian, from Nissus, or do u want to make it greek too?

I just read this and didnt bother to read the rest (maybe later when i have the need for a good laugh). As i have told you repeatedly and you manage to prove it each time you post anything, you are a special case of person. Totally ignorant about anything related to history, your reasoning ability is easily being rivalled by a 5 y.o kid and lastly you wouldnt know a clue even if it walked up to you, kicked you on the ass, and announced 'I am a fuckin' CLUE'.

Just to save yourself from being the permanent resident of the "best-one-liners-gems-post-here (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/627-f-y-r-o-ms-best-one-liners-gems-post-here.html) topic with your endless gibberish let me help you a bit.

From wiki:

Byzantium, later Constantinople and present-day Istanbul, was an ancient Greek city, which, according to legend, was founded by Greek colonists from Megara in 667 BC and named after their king Byzas or Byzantas (Βύζας or Βύζαντας in Greek). The name "Byzantium" is a Latinization of the original Thracian-Greek name Byzantion (Βυζάντιον; see also List of traditional Greek place names).

Byzantium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium)

btw the 'eagle' was symbol even of Persians at some time. However the double-headed eagle is a different story. It goes back even to Sumerians. Just because Albos adopted it from Byzantines it doesnt mean you have any relation to them as some of you have wet dreams for, as it was also adopted by Holy-Roman empire, Austro-Hungarian monarchy, Russians and even Freemasons. So next time think twice before you come up with your crap here.

[Ehetlaios]

And constantine was from the Thracian tribe of Mysoi.

[Hermes]

I didnt said that there was nothing there before Costandin.The East Roman Empire has its origins when Costandin went to put there his capital,so if there has been the Bizant Empire than, it was bcz that Costandin begined it.About what u say of the colonists of Megara,i dont know but i am ok with u, it's not that the problem.

As u accept Ptolemy, the eagle has been much more before,the question is : who were those who spread it? The greeks of course not, Illyrians not too.Who has been before? or u know just about greeks, no mater what around.
Anyway , here i give my opinions, and i thing , its good in a point of view having opposition. About your insults, i can reply those very well , but u must know i cant do it about ass, as Romans said : ''it was a greek habit''(vizzio greco).
In Roman books Costandin is from Nissus, son of an Illyrian person of administration(dont know the word).This thracian tribe of Mysoi had wrote it in their history?Anyway Thracian and Illyrians were cousins i think.

Can anyone tell me what u exactly understand for Greek???Bcz in a wide thought it really means too many things, but it is in a nationalistic sense, it have to be a little closer, dont u think.If u explain me i would understand many things i think.
As see here, everything great of those times, has been greek or belonged to someone that had disappeared now, ok keep talking, its cheap

[HellenicPride]

All I know is if you go throughout Albanian forums, you tube you will always see anti Greek propaganda. These things have a lot annonymosity against us. They ridicule us, insult, make accusations that we are not the same as our ancestors and so on. They even helped the Turks slaughter Greeks.

Some of you Greeks on here seriously amaze me that you would even consider these things friends. No to say that I am a perfect Greek because I am far from it but atleast I have some dignity and respect for my people, history and culture.

Albanians make their silly claims that they are Illyrian and so on. It has never been proven that they are. Show me where it says that Albanians are in fact Illyrians. I find that kind of hard to believe considering they still live like savages and are mostly nothing but criminals.

[Flipper]

This thracian tribe of Mysoi had wrote it in their history?Anyway Thracian and Illyrians were cousins i think.


Thracians are not a specific group of people. The Thracians of the shore were Ionians. The Myssians were Phrygians, the Bysaltes as well. The northern Thracians were Paionians and Dacians. At a certian time Illyrians had colonies there as well. In other words, thracians had a bit of everything in them.

[Tsontos]

Constantine's mother and father were ethnic Greeks. He was born in Nis, which was apart of the huge roman province of Illyria which is irrelevant as that province which were clearly not illyrian ethnically.

[Ptolemy]

I didnt said that there was nothing there before Costandin.

Your exact quote was "As u know Bizant(Kostandinopoli) was built by Kostandin the Great". Byzant-ium(the city) wasnt built by Constantine but Constantinople was. The rest of your post is incomprehensible. If you expect anyone to take you serious learn to express yourself clear. As for Constantine himself, he was 'Illyrian' as you mean it only in the wildest dreams of Albanian nationalists like you.

[Hermes]

Wei la....so wasnt' he from Thracia(Mysoi)?As i said, as i always have heard,he was from Nisus(Voulgaroktonos), but even in Nisus he was ethnic greek.
Cant speak more............go on guys .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................

[Ehetlaios]

I didnt said that there was nothing there before Costandin.The East Roman Empire has its origins when Costandin went to put there his capital,so if there has been the Bizant Empire than, it was bcz that Costandin begined it.About what u say of the colonists of Megara,i dont know but i am ok with u, it's not that the problem.

As u accept Ptolemy, the eagle has been much more before,the question is : who were those who spread it? The greeks of course not, Illyrians not too.Who has been before? or u know just about greeks, no mater what around.
Anyway , here i give my opinions, and i thing , its good in a point of view having opposition. About your insults, i can reply those very well , but u must know i cant do it about ass, as Romans said : ''it was a greek habit''(vizzio greco).
In Roman books Costandin is from Nissus, son of an Illyrian person of administration(dont know the word).This thracian tribe of Mysoi had wrote it in their history?Anyway Thracian and Illyrians were cousins i think.

Can anyone tell me what u exactly understand for Greek???Bcz in a wide thought it really means too many things, but it is in a nationalistic sense, it have to be a little closer, dont u think.If u explain me i would understand many things i think.
As see here, everything great of those times, has been greek or belonged to someone that had disappeared now, ok keep talking, its cheap

The twin headed eagle is actually a jewish symbol and from them the Byzantines took it.

The jews did not have a civilization of their own and everything they show as "culture" is stolen, so the twin headed eagle is from some other civilization.

I read about the matter not too long ago but I do not remember exactly, I'll check the article tonight and post again tomorrow.

[Tsontos]

but even in Nisus he was ethnic greek

Naissos was an ancient Greek colony


The city's early name under the Roman Empire remained Naissus, which is the Latin name derived from its original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs"), a Greek colony founded in antiquity. The etymology of the original name Naissos ("city of the nymphs") was derived from a mythical creature of Greek mythology - Naiad (from the Greek νάειν, "to flow," and νἃμα, "running water") which was the nymph of freshwater streams rivers and lakes. At the time when Greek colony was founded, the local residents believed that the numerous surrounding ponds, bogs, and the moor on the left riverbank were inhibited by the nymphs.

[Ehetlaios]

The twin headed eagle is actually a jewish symbol and from them the Byzantines took it.

The jews did not have a civilization of their own and everything they show as "culture" is stolen, so the twin headed eagle is from some other civilization.

I read about the matter not too long ago but I do not remember exactly, I'll check the article tonight and post again tomorrow.

Earlier, Ptolemy wrote that the twin-geaded eagle was used by the Sumerians. It was also used by the Hittites and it also appears on Chinese things (such as swords).

The jews were slaves to some big mesopotamian kingdom which used it, that is why they used it too.

A twin headed eagle from the ancient hellenic culture was never found, only two eagles as a sign of Zeus.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I didnt said that there was nothing there before Costandin.The East Roman Empire has its origins when Costandin went to put there his capital,so if there has been the Bizant Empire than, it was bcz that Costandin begined it.About what u say of the colonists of Megara,i dont know but i am ok with u, it's not that the problem.
Actually the so-called "Eastern Roman Empire" aka Byzantium was formed sometime during the reign of Dioklis in the late 200's, when he separated the empire into Eastern and Western ..

Anyway , here i give my opinions, and i thing , its good in a point of view having opposition. About your insults, i can reply those very well , but u must know i cant do it about ass, as Romans said : ''it was a greek habit''(vizzio greco).
The Romans would have never said "vizzio" because that is the Italian form of the word and thus non-existant in their time, IF they ever used the phrase (which I highly doubt since unlike the Hellenes they accepted homosexuality as a natural act) they would have said "vitium" if you're interested there is a topic on the issue.

[Hermes]

Jewish took it from Hitites, they have always been closed for some peroids.
About Zeus, its normal.
I think Bizantines had that, but not from jewish, it had exist in the East.It hasnt been a case i think.
Diokles(Roman imperator) was Illyrian too.He divided the empire but the real great dividing was made by Teodos.Still to him, other imperators governed the empire with others , making administration borders in many diferent ways.

[Flipper]

Since, this subject is fresh I've been looking around about the albanian language. There are some things being mentioned a lot by linguists:

a) Some believe it has a connection with Illyrian.
b) Some refer to it as a Greco-Italic Language
c) It has many Greek borowings (not the oposite as some might claim)
d) There are only some words shared with Illyrian.
e) There is a lack of Proto-Albanian place names in Illyria.

Any comments?

[Orphic_Hymn]

c) It has many Greek borowings (not the oposite as some might claim)


How many of these words are loans that can be linked to ancients and thus passed into their language from Illyrians and how many latter Byzantine loans?

[Flipper]

How many of these words are loans that can be linked to ancients and thus passed into their language from Illyrians and how many latter Byzantine loans?

I do not have a complete list. However, on books I have on the western greek (Doric) language some words are mentioned to have been boroughed in the albanian language. To make it more clear: Doric words were adopted in Albanian.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I've heard this but these words as I recall are limited (I've only managed to find notes on 4 of an unknown total) as presented by E. Cabej in the 7th International Congress of Onomastic Sciences. The majority of words I've seen are all of the later form of Hellenic.

[Teukros]

Really want to see the albanian explanation of the ancient Greek and Egyptians gods:laugh::laugh:

[olvios]

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

[masolord]

Can anyone prove to me that the Albanian language is not similar with Illirian since I am having an argument with an Albanian about it. Thanks :)

they are not illirians, they are trying to proof something that they are not, just like us.they are clowns

[Morphesau]

they are not illirians, they are trying to proof something that they are not, just like us.they are clowns

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[nsminc]

http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/dvv/cwmddd.gif

[Cadmus]

just like us.they are clowns


Cadmus>>>>http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8447/slapxm6.gif (http://imageshack.us)<<<<<<<Masolord

Show some dignity for christ sake!!!:clap2:;)

No further offense Masolord!;)

[Peace Lover]

Albanian language

Albanian (Gjuha shqipe pronounced [ˈɟuha ˈʃcipɛ/]) is an Indo-European language spoken by nearly 6 million people,[1] primarily in Albania and Kosovo, but also in other areas of the Balkans in which there is an Albanian population, including the west of Macedonia, Montenegro, and southern Serbia. Albanian is also spoken by communities in Greece, along the eastern coast of Italy, and on the island of Sicily. Additionally, speakers of Albanian can be found elsewhere throughout the latter two countries resulting from a modern diaspora, originating from the Balkans, that also includes Scandinavia, Germany, the United Kingdom, the Low Countries, Australia, Turkey and the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language

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Classification

Albanian was proven to be an Indo-European language in 1854 by the German philologist Franz Bopp. The Albanian language comprises its own branch of the Indo-European language family, next related[2] to Armenian and Greek.

Some scholars believe that Albanian derives from Illyrian[3][4]while others,[5] claim that it derives from Daco-Thracian. (Illyrian and Daco-Thracian, however, might have been closely related languages; see Thraco-Illyrian.)

Establishing longer relations, Albanian is often compared to Balto-Slavic on the one hand and Germanic on the other, both of which share a number of isoglosses with Albanian. Moreover, Albanian has undergone a vowel shift in which stressed, long o has fallen to a, much like in the former and opposite the latter. Likewise, Albanian has taken the old relative jos and innovatively used it exclusively to qualify adjectives, much in the way Balto-Slavic has used this word to provide the definite ending of adjectives.]

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Geographic distribution

Albanian is spoken by nearly 6 million people[1] mainly in Albania, Kosovo, Italy, Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Greece, Turkey, and by immigrant communities in many countries such as Belgium, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Italy, Sweden, Turkey (Europe), Russia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Switzerland and Australia.

Official status

Albanian in a revised form of the Tosk dialect is the official language of the Republic of Albania. Albanian is also one of the official languages of Kosovo and in the municipalities where there are more than 20% ethnic Albanian inhabitants in Republic of Macedonia.

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Dialects

Albanian can be divided into two main dialects, Gheg and Tosk.

The Shkumbin river is roughly the dividing line, with Gheg spoken north of the Shkumbin and Tosk south of it. The Geg literary language has been documented since 1462. Until the Communists took power in Albania, the standard was based on Gheg. Although the literary versions of Tosk and Gheg are mutually intelligible, many of the regional dialects are not. Tosk is divided into many sub-dialects. The main groups are Northern Tosk (Berat, Pojan, Vlorë, Struga) and Labërisht Labëria. In Greece, the Çam and the Arvanites speak different Tosk sub-dialects. The sub-dialect of the Arvanites is only partially intelligible with other Tosk sub-dialects, such that it can be regarded as a separate language, Arvanitika. A distinct Tosk sub-dialect has been preserved in the Albanian-founded village of Mandritsa in southern Bulgaria. Tosk sub-dialects related to Arvanitika and called Arbërisht are spoken by the Arbëreshë, descendants of 15th and 16th century immigrants in southeastern Italy, in small communities in the regions of Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, Campania, Molise, Abruzzi, and Puglia. Tosk sub-dialects are spoken by most members of the large Albanian immigrant communities of Ukraine, Turkey, Egypt, and the United States.

Gheg is spoken in Northern Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo, and in parts of Montenegro. Each area of Northern Albania has its own sub-dialect: Tiranë, Durrës, Elbasan and Kavaja; Kruja and Laçi; Mati, Dibra and Mirdita; Lezhë, Shkodër, Krajë, Ulqin; etc. Malësia e Madhe, Rugova, and villages scattered alongside the Adriatic Coast form the northmost sub-dialect of Albania today. There are many other sub-dialects in the region of Kosovo and in parts of southern Montenegro, and in Republic of Macedonia. The sub-dialects of Malsia e Madhe and Dukagjini near Shkodra are being lost because the younger generations prefer to speak the sub-dialect of Shkodra.

Gheg and Tosk differ mainly by:

1. rhotacism - Gheg has n where Tosk has r
2. late Proto-Albanian ā + tautosyllabic nasal > Gheg low-central or low-back vowel; > Tosk mid-central, or low-front-to-central vowel
3. Proto-Albanian ō > uo > Gheg vo, Tosk va
4. infinitival use of verbal adjective preceded in Gheg by me and in Tosk by për të
5. difference in lexemes, noun plurals, suppletion of the aorist system of the verb

Subdialects may vary based on:

1. retention or loss of final schwa (-ë)
2. devoicing of final voiced segments
3. treatment of intervocalic and final nj
4. treatment of clusters of nasal + voiced stop
5. development of anaptyctic homorganic stops after nasals that follow a stressed vowel and precede unstressed -ël or -ër
6. treatment of vowel clusters ie, ye, and ua
7. treatment of stressed /e/ before a nasal

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Sounds

Albanian has 7 vowels and 29 consonants. Gheg has a set of nasal vowels which are absent in Tosk. Another peculiarity is the mid-central vowel "ë" reduced at the end of the word. The stress is fixed mainly on the penultimate syllable.

Notes:

* The palatal stops /c/ and /ɟ/ have no English equivalent, so the pronunciation guide is approximate. Palatal stops can be found in other languages, for example, in Hungarian (where these sounds are spelled ty and gy respectively).
* The palatal nasal /ɲ/ corresponds to the sound of the Spanish ñ or the French or Italian digraph gn (as in gnocchi). It is pronounced as one sound, not a nasal plus a glide.
* The ll sound is a velarised lateral, close to English dark L.
* The contrast between flapped r and trilled rr is the same as in Spanish. English does not have either of the two sounds phonemically (but tt in butter is pronounced as a flap r in most American dialects).
* (1) The letter ç can be spelt ch on American English keyboards, both due to its English sound, but more importantly, due to analogy with Albanian usage of h to modify the sounds s, x and z writing those sh, xh and zh. (Usually, however, it's spelled simply c, which may cause confusion; however, meanings are usually understood).

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Grammar

Albanian nouns are inflected by gender (masculine, feminine and neuter) and number (singular and plural). There are 4 declensions with 6 cases (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, ablative and vocative), although the vocative only occurs with a limited number of words. The cases apply to both definite and indefinite nouns and there are numerous cases of syncretism. The equivalent of a genitive is formed by using the prepositions i/e/të/së with the dative.

* The definite article can be in the form of noun suffixes, which vary with gender and case.
o For example in singular nominative, masculine nouns add -i, or those ending in -g/-k, take -u (to avoid palatalization):
+ mal (mountain) / mali (the mountain);
+ libër (book) / libri (the book);
+ zog (bird) / zogu (the bird).
o Feminine nouns take the suffix -(j)a:
+ veturë (car) / vetura (the car);
+ shtëpi (house) / shtëpia (the house);
+ lule (flower) / lulja (the flower).
* Neuter nouns take -t.

Albanian has developed an analytical verbal structure in place of the earlier synthetic system, inherited from Proto-Indo-European. Its complex system of moods (6 types) and tenses (3 simple and 5 complex constructions) is distinctive among Balkan languages. There are two general types of conjugation. In Albanian the constituent order is subject verb object and negation is expressed by the particles nuk or s' in front of the verb, for example:

* Toni nuk flet anglisht "Tony doesn't speak English";
* s'e di "I don't know".

In imperative sentences, the particle mos is used:

* mos harro "do not forget!".

However, with verbs in the non-active form (forma joveprore), the verb is often in sentence-initial position:

* Parashikohet një ndërprerje "An interruption is anticipated".

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Vocabulary

Cognates with Illyrian

* brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsi "lees, dregs; mash" (< PA *brutia)
* loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" (< PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" (< PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" (< PA *laugista)
* mandos, "small horse"; cf. Alb mëz, mâz "poney", Messapian Iuppiter Menzana, byname for Messapian supreme deity, Sanskrit mandura "stable for horses", Thracian Mezenai "the divine horseman", Manduria, town in Apulia founded by Messapians
* rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. OAlb ren, mod. Alb re, rê "cloud" (< PA *rina)

Early borrowing from Greek

Early Albanian words borrowed from Greek are mainly commodity items and trade goods, gained through direct contact with the Greeks.

* bagëm "oil for anointment" < Gk báptisma "anointment"
* bletë "hive; bee" < dialectal Gk mélitta "honey-bee" (Gk mélissa)[6]
* brukë "tamarisk" < Gk mourikē
* drapër "sickle" < Gk (NW) drápanon
* kopsht "garden" < Gk (NW) kāpos
* kumbull "plum" < Gk kokkumēlon
* lakër "cabbage, green vegetables" < Gk lákhanon "green; vegetable"
* lëpjetë "orach, dock" < Gk lápathon
* lyej "to smear, oil" < Proto-Albanian *elaiwanja, derived from *elaiwā < Gk elai(w)on "oil"
* mokër "millstone" < Gk (NW) mākhaná "device, instrument"
* mollë "apple tree" < Gk (NW) mālon "apple"
* ngjalë "eel" < Gk egchelys
* pjepër "melon" < Gk pépon "melon"
* presh "leek" < Gk práson
* shpellë "cave" < Gk spēlaion "cave"
* trumzë "thyme" < Gk thýmbra, thrýmbē

Gothic borrowings

* fat "groom, husband" < Goth brūþfaþs "bridegroom"[7]
* magar "donkey, ass" < *margë < Goth *marh "horse"
* petk "herder's coat; clothing" < Goth paida; cf. OHG pfeit, OE pād
* shkulkë "branch indicating a pasture is off limits" < Goth skulka "guardian"
* shkum "foam" < Goth scūma
* tirq "trousers" < Late Latin tubrucus < Goth *þiobroc "knee-britches"; cf. OHG dioh-bruoh

The earliest accepted documentation in the Albanian language is from the 15th century AD, even though recently claims have been made for documents dating late 12th to have been found in the Vatican Library. Church documents in Latin have passages mentioning "Lingua Albanesca" in the 12th century as well. This is a time when Albanian Principalities start to be mentioned and expand inside and outside the Byzantine Empire. It is assumed that Greek and Balkan Latin (which was the ancestor of Romanian and other Balkan Romance languages), would exert a great influence on Albanian. Examples of words borrowed from Latin: qytet < civitas (city), qiell < caelum (sky), mik < amicus (friend).

After the Slavs arrived in the Balkans, another source of Albanian vocabulary were the Slavic languages, especially Bulgarian. The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Surprisingly the Persian words seem to have been absorbed the most. Some loanwords from Modern Greek also exist especially in the south of Albania. A lot of the loaned words have been resubstituted from Albanian rooted words or modern Latinized (international) words.

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Writing system

Albanian has been written using many different alphabets since the 15th century. The earliest written Albanian records come from the Gheg area in makeshift spellings based on Italian or Greek and sometimes in Turko-Arabic characters. Originally, the Tosk dialect was written in the Greek alphabet and the Gheg dialect was written in the Latin alphabet. They have both also been written in the Ottoman Turkish version of the Arabic alphabet, the Cyrillic alphabet, and some local alphabets.

In 1908 an official, standardized Albanian spelling was developed, based on a Gheg dialect and using the Latin alphabet with the addition of the letters ë, ç, and nine digraphs. After World War II the official language changed in that it adopted the Tosk dialect as its model.

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History

Linguistic affinities

The Albanian language is a distinct Indo-European language that does not belong to any other existing branch. Sharing lexical isoglosses with Greek, Balto-Slavic, and Germanic, the word stock of Albanian is quite distinct. Hastily tied to Germanic and Balto-Slavic by the shift of PIE *ā to *ō in a supposed "northern group",[8] Albanian has proven to be distinct from the other two groups as this vowel shift is only part of a larger push chain that affected all long vowels.[9] Admittedly, Albanian does share with Balto-Slavic two features: a lengthening of syllabic consonants before voiced obstruents and a distinct treatment of long syllables ending in a sonorant.[10] However, Albanian is best known for its singular conservatism, having retained the distinction between active and middle voice, present and aorist, three series of tectal consonants before front vowels (e.g., palatals, velars, and labio-velars), and initial PIE *h4 as an h.[11]

Albanian is considered to have its closest linguistic affinity to and to have evolved from an extinct Paleo-Balkan language, usually taken to be either Illyrian or Dacian or Thracian. See also Thraco-Illyrian and Messapian language.

Historical presence and location

Even the name Albanian is of some dispute. It appears at the first time in the 2nd c. AD in Late Greek as Albanoí (later Byz Gk Arbanitai) and thereafter in similar forms, including obsolete Albanian Arbër/Arbën; however, these last two stem directly from Vulgar Latin *Albanus, most likely borrowed from Greek Albanoí; the adjective too, arbëresh/arbënesh, are derived from Latin albanensis. This same name appears in Slavic and was used to name the town of Labëri "Laberia", from South Slavic labanĭja, from earlier *olbanĭja.

While it is considered established that the Albanians originated in the Balkans, the exact location from which they spread out is hard to pinpoint. Despite varied claims, the Albanians almost certainly came from slightly farther north (Kosovo) and inland (Northwest Macedonia) than would suggest the present borders of Albania, with a homeland concentrated in the mountains. The purely linguistic reasons are listed below.

* First, Albanian has few early Greek borrowings, most of which are from the Northwest dialect, probably via the islands off the coast of Albania, e.g. WGk (Doric) mākhaná gave Alb mokër "mill" and WGk drápanon gave Alb drapër "sickle".
* Similarly, the Illyrian coast is not a likely source since Albanian has no inherited nautical or indigenous sea-faring terminology, and has instead supplemented this absence with subsequent borrowing from Latin or Greek or recent metaphorical lexical creations.
* Third, toponyms along the coast, in contrast with native penultimate accent (ex: mbësë "niece" < PA nepō'tia), often show substratal antepenultimate accent (ex: Durrës < Dúrrhachium; Pojanë < Apóllonia), though there are some exceptions (Vlorë < Aulónā vs. Greek Aúlon).
* Also, some consider Albanian to be the source for a small number of grammatical and lexical similarities shared by otherwise dissimilar languages including Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and to some extent Greek. Based on their extent of grammaticalization, these include: the postposition of articles, the presence and grammatical use of schwa, object reduplication, admirative through verbal constructions, and the loss of infinitives.
* Finally, few if any Proto-Albanian place names exist in what was the former Roman province of Illyria.

Instead, given the overwhelming amount of shepherding and mountaineering vocabulary as well as the extensive influence of Latin, it is more likely the Albanians come from north of the Jireček line, on the Latin-speaking side, perhaps in part from the late Roman province of Dardania from the western Balkans. However, archaeology has more convincingly pointed to the early Byzantine province of Praevitana (modern northern Albania) which shows an area where a primarily shepherding, transhumance population of Illyrians retained their culture. This area was based in the Mat district and the region of high mountains in Northern Albania, as well as in Dukagjin, Mirditë, and the mountains of Drin, from where the population would descend in the summer to the lowlands of western Albania, the Black Drin (Drin i zi) river valley, and into parts of Old Serbia. Indeed, the region's complete lack of Latin place names seems to imply little latinization of any kind and a more likely spot for the early medieval heart of Albanian territory, following the collapse of the Illyrian province.

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Linguistic influences

The period during which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted and drawn out over six centuries, 1st c. AD to 6th or 7th c. AD. This is born out into roughly three layers of borrowings, the largest number belonging to the second layer. The first, with the fewest borrowings, was a time of less important interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller amount of borrowings. Each layer is characterized by a different treatment of most vowels, the first layer having several that follow the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; later layers reflect vowel changes endemic to Late Latin and presumably Proto-Romance. Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as a large scale palatalization.

A brief period followed, between 7th c. AD and 9th c. AD, that was marked by heavy borrowings from Southern Slavic, some of which predate the "o-a" shift common to the modern forms of this language group. Starting in the latter 9th c. AD, a period followed characterized by protracted contact with the Proto-Romanians, or Vlachs, though lexical borrowing seems to have been mostly one sided - from Albanian into Romanian. Such borrowing indicates that the Romanians migrated from an area where the majority was Slavic (i.e. Middle Bulgarian) to an area with a majority of Albanian speakers, i.e. Dardania, where Vlachs are recorded in the 10th c. AD. Their movement is probably related to the expansion of the Bulgarian empire into Albania around that time. This fact places the Albanians at a rather early date in the western or central Balkans.

Historical considerations

Indeed, the center of the Albanians remained the river Mat, and in 1079 AD they are recorded in the territory between Ohrid and Thessalonika as well as in Epirus.

Furthermore, the major Tosk-Gheg dialect division is based on the course of the Shkumbin River, a seasonal stream that lay near the old Via Egnatia. Since rhotacism postdates the dialect division, it is reasonable that the major dialect division occurred after the christianization of the Roman Empire (4th c. AD) and before the eclipse of the East-West land-based trade route by Venetian seapower (10th c. AD).

References to the existence of Albanian as a distinct language survive from the 1300s, but without recording any specific words. The oldest surviving documents written in Albanian are the "Formula e Pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula), "Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit." (I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durres in 1462 in the Gheg dialect, and some New Testament verses from that period.

The oldest known Albanian printed book, Meshari [1] or missal, was written by Gjon Buzuku, a Roman Catholic cleric, in 1555. The first Albanian school is believed to have been opened by Franciscans in 1638 in Pdhanë. In 1635, Frang Bardhi wrote the first Latin-Albanian dictionary.

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References

1. ^ a b c Gheg 2,779,246 + Tosk 2,980,000 + Arbereshe 80,000 + Arvanitika 150,000 = 5,989,246. (Ethnologue, 2005)
Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International. Online version: http : //www . ethnologue . com/.
2. ^ Jokl, Norbert, 1963 (posthumous): Die Verwandtschaftsverhältnise des Albanischen zu den übrigen indogermanischen Sprachen. In: Die Sprache 9:113-56.
3. ^ Of the Albanian Language - William Martin Leake, London, 1814.
4. ^ ANCIENT ALBANIA INHABITED BY ILLYRIANS-Chapter 36 : Turmoil In The Balkans - Romania, Bulgaria, Albania and Greece Part Three - Albania
5. ^ The Thracian language. The Linguist List. Retrieved on 2008-01-27. “An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD.”
6. ^ Vladimir Orel (2000) links the word to an unattested Vulgar Latin *melettum, which must be a borrowing from NW Greek mélitta. J.P. Mallory and D.Q. Adams (1997) have the word as a native development, from *melítiā, a form also considered to underly Greek mélissa; however, that form is believed to give Albanian mjalcë "bee", which is a native word and derivative of mjaltë "honey" (< Proto-Albanian *melita). In any case, the word does not appear to be native to Albanian.
7. ^ The word fat has both the meaning of "fate, luck" and "groom, husband". This may indicate two separate words that are homophones, one derived from Gothic and the other from Latin fātum; although, Orel (2000) sees them as the same word. However, it is worth noting that Albanian shortë "fate; spouse, wife" mirrors the dichotomy in meaning of fat but is considered to stem from one single source - Latin sortem "fate".
8. ^ Comrie, Bernard. "The Indo-European Linguistic Family: Genetic and Typological Perspectives". The Indo-European Languages. ed. Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paolo Ramat. (London: Routledge) 1998.
9. ^ Labov, William. Principles of Linguistic Change, vol. 1: Internal Factors (Oxford, UK: Blackwell) 1994.
10. ^ Hamp, E.P. "Albanian". Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics. (Oxford, UK: Persamon Press) 1994: 66-7.
11. ^ Mallory, J.P. and D.Q. Adams. "Albanian". Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. (London: Fitzroy Dearborn) 1997: 9.

Bibliography

* Encyclopædia Britannica, edition 15 (1985). Article: Albanian language
* Huld, Martin E. Basic Albanian Etymologies. Columbus, OH: Slavica Publishers, 1984.
* Mallory, J.P. and D.Q. Adams, Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. London: Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997.
* Martin Camaj, Albanian Grammar, Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden
* Orel, Vladimir. A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language: Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian. Leiden: Brill, 2000.

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