Foustanella

[Orphic_Hymn]

The 'foustanella' is nothing but the descendant of the ancient 'Chlamys' and 'Tonga' and the later Byzantine "tunica" that wasn't much of a change to the ancient forms..
Proof of the existance since ancient times is the find in Durres (ancient Hellinic colony of Epidamnos founded 650BC) of this artifact dated 500BC:


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/fusgurdr6jz.jpg




Here's a 5th cent. Byzantine icon again depicting a 'tunica' under the armor :


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/2005-06-20_165539_l9-1.jpg


Of course its origins are far older as written by Paul Rehak in his "Aegean Breechcloths, Kilts, and the Keftiu Paintings" clearly states :


In discussions of Aegean costume, considerable attention has been paid to the change in the representation of presumed Aegean natives (the Keftiu) in several Egyptian tomb paintings of the 18th Dynasty. The earlier tombs depict men wearing breechcloths with codpieces and backflaps; the later tombs show men in kilts. The date of this change has usually been thought to coincide with a shift & power in the Aegean at-the end of LM IB, from Minoans (with codpieces) to Mycenaeans (in kilts).

But both breechcloths and kilts are worn on Crete
at least from MM II times, and neither costume is generally worn by early Mycenaeans. Breechcloths with codpieces characterize certain types of Minoan activity (hunting, farming, bull-leaping, and ritual performances),
whereas shorts appear in early Mycenaean scenes of hunting and fighting, replaced in LH IIIA-B frescoes by tunics; most Mycenaean representations of kilts are quite late (LH IIIB).


(note that "Middle Minoan II = 1900-1720 B.C
"Late Helladic IIIB" = 1300-1200 BC)

[PAO123]

I wouldn't be too quick on the first picture though since it says something Albanian under the name. But it doesn't matter since these quotes prove that the foustanella is Greek.

[taikou]

it says something Albanian under the name.

The caption says "Man with fustanella (terracota of Durres,4th century A.D.)"
Another way of saying A.D. is "e.r".B.C. is "p.e.s."
I've no idea whether this artifact is from A.D. or B.C.,but if what Orphic_Hymn said is true and the artifact is indeed from B.C.,then the caption is mistaken.
We can only judge whether the mistake was intentional or a simple typographic error(which is VERY COMMON in Albania) if we can see the main article of this book....

[Orphic_Hymn]

The artifact is from the Hellinistic city of Epidamnus (mentioned as "Durresit" under the pic). Unfortunately my knowledge of Albanian is next to nothing, but I have found several archeology related articles in Albanian that make reference to "shek." and "p.e.s" (which taikou mentioned) .. Maybe the 'p' was left out.. really can't say.

After a little search I found where the pic came from (I picked it off an older forum discussion). In wikipedia, its mentioned when refering to the origins of the 'fustanella', so it obviously is BC.. With the help of an online translator I managed to find out that 'shek' most probably is short for 'shekull' which means "century, age".

[olvios]

The chiton & chlamys and proto-foustanella elements

[Illyria]

fustanella is an albanian dress...

[Ptolemy]

This was the last time, you posted claims without backing it up. It will be the last one in this forum if you insist to the same childish and counterproductive attitude.

[Amarantos]

This was the last time, you posted claims without backing it up. It will be the last one in this forum if you insist to the same childish and counterproductive attitude.

:thumbsup:

:)

[Orphic_Hymn]

"Introducing Greece" by Francis King p.53

Traditionally the white skirt, or fustanella, is said to have originated from the Roman tunics........






"The People of Turkey" by Fanny Janet Blunt p.69


The Albanians are divided into several distinct races, each presenting marked features of difference from the other and occupying separate districts. Those of Upper Albania are called Ghegs, and inhabit that portion oi the country called Ghegueria, which extends from the frontiers of Bosnia and Monte¬negro to Berat.
These men are broad-chested, tall, and robust, have regular features, and a proud, manly, independent mien. Their personal attractions are not a Uttle enhanced by their rich and picturesque national costume—a pair of cloth gaiters; an embroidered jacket with open sleeves; a double-breasted waistcoat, the Greek fustanella (white calico kilt), surmounted by a cloth skirt opened in front; a kemer, or leather belt decorated with silver ornaments and holding a pistol, yatagan and other arms of fine workmanship.






"Prince Louis of Battenberg, Admiral of the Fleet" by Mark Edward Frederic Kerr p. 18

The dinner was a very grand and picturesque affair, as all the servants were in the Greek costume, called the fustanella.




"Lord Cromer: Victorian imperialist, Edwardian proconsul" by Roger Owen p. 28

Baring remembered the King's fustanella (Greek kilt) as very dirty, and the Queen, in tears, telling him a very long story designed.........




"With the Greeks in Thessaly" By William Kinnaird Rose p.7


Every steamer arriving at Pineus landed hundreds of reservists, recruits, and volunteers not only from the Isles of Greece but from every quarter of the Levant, from North Africa, from Western Europe, and even from America, South Africa, and Australia. They were attired in every variety of costume—the baggy pants and braided jacket of the Albanian ;

the fustanella, or plaited linen kilt, of the mountaineers, with picturesque jacket and tassellcd fez ; the heavy woollen cloak and tight white breeches of shepherds and peasants fiom plain and mountain on the mainland, and even suits of Western tweed.



"Our allies and enemies in the Near East" by Jean Victor Bates p. 163


A dispute has arisen between the proprietor and one of the new-comers, whose fustinella and long-tasselled scarlet fez proclaim him a Greek.

[Hermes]

How is posible that the same fustanella that Orphic_Hymn shows at top is still dressed in northen Albania. It is of B.C times but it still exist, it is like just made 5 minutes before lokkking to the person that dress it. It dont seem to me like antic, its present.

[Hermes]

Sorry , i forgot, all here is greek..........continue to play children.

[Ptolemy]

Sorry , i forgot, all here is greek..........continue to play children.

Its your right to demonstrate everytime you post that the terms "Albanians" and 'reasonable posts' are two entirely opposite terms but if you plan to stay further here try and find a book written for some persons exactly like you, titled "How to avoid looking everytime like a complete idiot"!!

[Hermes]

THNX, continue so......

[olvios]

This is the real albanian costume

[Teukros]

The etymology of the word is Latin,probably came from Byzantium.It's vet common in the Balkans so there is nothing to do with albanian heritage

[olvios]

There were Albanians in 1809 - 1810 in the region as well,we knew it.So?

[Orphic_Hymn]

You didn't get it olvie.. our friend is bringing up the foustanella debate (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/epirus-forum/917-foustanella.html)`again

[olvios]

"Dress" like clothes for men was common in antiquity & in the middle ages in most peoples of the Balkans and even the Mediterranean .They existed in all eras and Albanians a medieval people were not the source .When Byron saw them they had money from known activities and dressed accordingly .

[TirAlb]

There were Albanians in 1809 - 1810 in the region as well,we knew it.So?

Of course there were Albanians in Albania,olvios,so nothing.

[gmellos]

Oops you just unmasked me,it was all about fustanella..so who invented that skirt?Its a "buy one get one free" discover,therefore of great importance,because obviosly who invented it,invented panties as well.

Honestly WHO cares who invented the Fustanella!!!!!!

[boreans79]

Honestly WHO cares who invented the Fustanella!!!!!!

Who cares?
Honestly?

[boreans79]

There were Albanians in 1809 - 1810 in the region as well,we knew it.

And before 1809.

[Tsontos]

I hope albanians invented it. let them have their skirts.

[Christov]

Guys, I guess more important is beneath the fusta ;-)

[TirAlb]

Lord byron letter and fustanella are two different topics,i don't understand why the threads were united.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Lord byron letter and fustanella are two different topics,i don't understand why the threads were united.

What was the purpose of presenting the lette , whats the point trying to be made through its presentation or what did you want to tell us with it?

[TirAlb]

What was the purpose of presenting the lette , whats the point trying to be made through its presentation or what did you want to tell us with it?

Well,the purpose was not fustanella for sure.If the thread is not appropriate just delete it.I think that joining the two threads together is wrong,and thats all.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Well,the purpose was not fustanella for sure.If the thread is not appropriate just delete it.I think that joining the two threads together is wrong,and thats all.

I don't see anything wrong with the thread, but merging 2 similar/related threads was simply the logical thing to do. Now IF on the other hand there was something else you wanted to debate/discuss through the presentation of the letter in question(other than the foustanella issue which you claim was not it), by all means do point it out.

[TirAlb]

All threads here are similar here,but no problem i deleted Byrons letter.

[boreans79]

I hope albanians invented it. let them have their skirts.

Actually it was invented by Illyrians and/or Epirotes

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2276/2132933109_efdede0806_o.jpg

and descended by Albanians

http://www.peshkupauje.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/shqiptar.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/2649/fustanella3eb1.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8561/fustanella2ne2.jpg

[olvios]

*No ancient Greek in Albanian language thus nothing to do with Ancient Greeks or Illyrians as they were effected by it

[boreans79]

*No ancient Greek in Albanian language thus nothing to do with Ancient Greeks or Illyrians as they were effected by it

You are definitaly wrong.

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/2511/pyrrhicdanceiu3.png

[akritas]

and descended by Albanians

http://www.peshkupauje.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/shqiptar.jpg




I like this painting.......do you know its story my friend ?

[olvios]

You are definitaly wrong.

You are definitely lacking in the brain department

The lack of ancient Greek loans in Albanian is disputed (see Hemp; Cabej). It is unanimously admitted however, that if they are present, they are very rare (Hemp, Cabej).

[olvios]

Before continuing with the dimmer Balkan past, there are two sets of old loans in Albanian which lead us to a slender, but valuable, conclusion. It has long been recognized (since A. Thumb's basic article, IF 1910:26.1-20) that the ancient Greek loans are rare. Pre-Albanian was scarcely in close contact with Greek in antiquity. This places the Albanians north of the Jireek line.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bgiusca_Jirecek_Line.jpg

Nothing to do with Ancient Greeks (Pelasgians,Macedonians,Epirotes...):clapping:

[boreans79]

I like this painting.......do you know its story my friend ?

This my supose-friend is an /Arvan-ites/~~/Arban-ites/~~/Arben-ites/

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/861/dictonariumlatinoepirotif8.png

This is the only name Albanians call themselves(before Shqypetar).
ARBAN or ARBEN

[olvios]

A medieval text is not modern science.Wake up and come in the real world.

Before continuing with the dimmer Balkan past, there are two sets of old loans in Albanian which lead us to a slender, but valuable, conclusion. It has long been recognized (since A. Thumb's basic article, IF 1910:26.1-20) that the ancient Greek loans are rare. Pre-Albanian was scarcely in close contact with Greek in antiquity. This places the Albanians north of the Jireek line.

[Sniper]

You are definitaly wrong.

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/2511/pyrrhicdanceiu3.png

you surely lack the appropriate knowledge or even intelligence.The Greek sculpture on the left shows the ancient Greek dance of Pyrrhic(fire dance in Greek),and especially the one which was danced in Crete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_dance
The same dance exists now in a more modern version in various Greek dances like Pontian ones Cretan etc etc.So all of that might show a Greek dance style that was adopted by you but in modern times.This is called Balkanization.you have only one such type of dance(if ti is real) whereas we have many different styles.So,since you are newcomers you've just adopted it.By the way,can you show any evidence of your existence in B.C times?;);)and something more.can you give us some more info about your dance?is it a usual one or only happened once and later forgotten because of its foreign roots from a nation you hate,the Greek?



p.s1 this is the typical Pyrrhic dance
http://www.gnwsis.gr/pmwiki.php?n=Main.%CE%A0%CE%A5%CE%A1%CE%A1%CE%99%C E%A7%CE%99%CE%9F%CE%A3
http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/dunkle/athnlife/pyrrhic.html

traditional Greek sword Dance(originated from Pyrrhic dances)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/Busel_naousa_07.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/likio6a.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/Patra_3.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/product_imagephp.jpg

YouTube - NAOUSA 2008 - GENITSAROI & MPOYLES (MACEDONIA)
YouTube - apokries @ naousa - gennitsaroi k mpoules

pontian dance mahairia(knives)
YouTube - pontiaka pontian "Maxeria" Pitsiak, Knife Dance
YouTube - Lazaros Triantafillidis presents HOROS MAXAIRIA
p.s.2if this is your only statement,then you have a problem since those dances exists till today.where are the rest of your examples,which will justify the existence of the Albanians in B.c. times?probably they do not exist

[Sniper]

http://www.peshkupauje.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/shqiptar.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/2649/fustanella3eb1.jpg

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8561/fustanella2ne2.jpg

actually those picture if you look in historical sources and not in usual propaganda crap you'll see they show Greeks in ottoman times and ater that.Don't you agree? and give some links of them

as for the first picture it shows a Greek revolutionary in 1821
(Armatolos. Water Colour by Carl Haag. Benaki Museum, Athens.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armatoloi
I see you like to change documents for your own good eh?you are a typical asshole.why so?do you lack of the appropriate clues to justify yourself so you twist facts?:rolleyes:

and Epirots are Greek!

[boreans79]

you surely lack the appropriate knowledge or even intelligence.The Greek sculpture on the left shows the ancient Greek dance of Pyrrhic(fire dance in Greek),and especially the one which was danced in Crete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_dance
The same dance exists now in a more modern version.So all of that clearly show a Greek dance style that was adopted by you.This is called Balkanization.

Usually the non-inteligent people have hard time to understant the inteligent ones.

[Sniper]

Usually the non-inteligent people have hard time to understant the inteligent ones.

Ι see you do know yourself well!don't you?;)It might not be difficult because a non-intelligent can understand only something similar
anyway if you do not understand me tell me to explain you better.
for your help jerk I told you that your dance could have been inspired from similar Greeks since we've have such dances from the antiquity and you are newcomers in the Balkans so it was adopted by you.
You first said that fustanella was invented by the Illyrians but you forgot(?) to mention that Ancient Greeks did have the same clothes even in Minoan times.The Illyrians did not have any but any culture.so they adopted foreign.The specific pictures of yours also show Illyrians in roman times when they were totally assimilated.That's why we do not have any evidence about them...that means the fustanella dress has nothing to do with Illyrians who were a 'barbaric' nation.so if you were clever you might had understood that there is no connection of what you write and what exists in reality.In a few words fustanella is a dress of ancient Greek style which was developed in Byzantine years and remained till now and affected the Balkan culture.Because both ancient Greece and the Byzantine empire(Greek) were the only civilizations which prospered in the Balkans and that means they highly influenced the local traditions.Illyrians not only they did not have any culture but they were also disappeared.
The rest are just paintings of Greeks in the mid and late 19 century.Aren't they?
smartness might not be your best weapon.

[boreans79]

actually those picture if you look in historical sources and not in usual propaganda crap you'll see they show Greeks in ottoman times and ater that.Don't you agree

How can I agree??

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2447/2superkartolinangamaruble1.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6918/pavaresiip0.gif

[Sniper]

How can I agree??

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/2447/2superkartolinangamaruble1.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6918/pavaresiip0.gif

so what?do you know what balkanization is?you think that you didn't adopted foreign culture?because fustanella look like ancient Greek clothes very much so it cannot be brought from others later in the time but it can be an advanced version of them in 19th century times.Moreover similar clothes existed in Byzantine times like the tunica

so you can now agree

Greeks in Byzantine times
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Byzfres.gif
Greek revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Epanastasi.jpg
Greek armatolos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Armatolos-haag.jpg
Greeks against Turks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vasilika.jpg
Greeks in the 19th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Detail_-_The_Entry_of_King_Othon_of_Greece_in_Athens-1839.jpg
Greek euzones
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/Evzones_postcard.jpg

as for balkanization,even Romanians have similar tradition
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/Calusar.jpg

Bulgarians
http://www.omda.bg/images_more/Ethnographic_Museums/costumes/male_festive_summer_costume_early20C_Karnalovo_Pet rich_region.jpg

p.s. there is no modern historician a serious one at least who accepts that you are descendants of the Illyrians or the Pelasgians.So you may stop talking about them as your ancestors.

[Sniper]

You are definitaly wrong.

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/2511/pyrrhicdanceiu3.png

anyway after looking to an Albanian forum I came to this

"That the original inhabitants of Britain danced--that the Picts, Danes, Saxons and Romans danced may be taken for granted, but there seems little doubt that our earliest illustrations of dancing were of the Roman tradition. We find the attitude, the instruments and the clapping of hands, all of the same undoubted classic character. Tacitus informs us that the Teutonic youths danced, with swords and spears, and Olaus Magnus that the Goths, &c., had military dances: still the military dances in English MSS. (figs. 31, 32) seem more like those of a Pyrrhic character, which Julius Caesar, the conqueror of England, introduced into Rome. The illustration (fig. 29) of what is probably a Saxon gleemen's dance shows us the kind of amusement they afforded and how they followed classic usages."

http://www.albanian.com/community/vbl/showthread.php?t=14188&page=7

well indeed your dance might have some Celtic or Roman or Gothic origin in it.Celts and Goths lived in modern day Albania and may have passed their culture.So it may not be a Greek loan into Albania but a Celtic one.Anyway there is not reference to any Albanian in B.C times only in some regions in Caucasus.And Illyrians according modern scholars were totally different from you.

Moreover and more probably your dance might be a Turkic one since as we all know you were one with the turks in ottoman times,their influence to you was huge, adopting their culture and religion and helping them in their atrocities.Your language has many Turkic words.
http://www.kilic-kalkan.com/
YouTube - sword shield k?l?ç kalkan
YouTube - k?l?c kalkan
http://turkiyeyikesfet.tv/page.php?s=page&pid=1100&seo=/Kilic+Kalkan

anyway it is silly to connect your dance to the ancient Pyrrhic because there is a huge time gap between them and moreover every nation has its own.As you saw the Celts and the Goths had similar and even the Turks do have some of their own.

Traditional Greek sword Dances similar to the ancient Pyrrhic
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/Busel_naousa_07.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/likio6a.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/Patra_3.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb164/hellmariner/product_imagephp.jpg

YouTube - NAOUSA 2008 - GENITSAROI & MPOYLES (MACEDONIA)
YouTube - apokries @ naousa - gennitsaroi k mpoules

[TirAlb]

thanks sniper at least now we know who invented the minifustanella.

[Christov]

so what?do you know what balkanization is?you think that you didn't adopted foreign culture?I like this

[Truth Bearer]

The Ghegs have a Celtic mix they don't look like their fellow countrymen Tosks.......

[Sniper]

thanks sniper at least now we know who invented the minifustanella.

is that the most clever you can say?or it is because you do not know the specific dress?Are you that pathetic that your irony touches things like this?:rolleyes:LOL
Just to know the dress of the photo describes no the Greek ones but the Janissary ones which were adopted by the Turks.This customs which is yearly in the town in Naousa describes the fights of the Greeks against the Janissaries.

[Sniper]

in wiki I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella

ancient Greek origin
One claim of an ancient link to the modern fustanella involves an ancient statue dated from the 3rd century BCE in Kerameikon (a part of Athens to the northwest of the Acropolis). Another claim involves a small figure from the 5th century BCE in Slovenia.[1] Another one was found in the outskirts of the ancient Greek city of Epidamnus (modern Durrës, Albania).[2] Yet another claim involves the statue carved in a niche in the Cave of Archedemos the Nympholept, near Mount Hymettus in Athens, which statue wears a fustanella-like garment and has been dated to c. 500 BCE. Archedemos, although living in Athens, came from the Spartan colony of Thera. This is why he carved himself wearing the Dorian tunic. The Dorian tunic was also a garment of Kouretes.

so there is a possibility of ancient Greek roots.

aromanian origin
Another theory is that this type of garment was brought from the territory comprising modern Romania, by the Aromanians (see Romania in the Dark Ages), although there is no documented evidence of a migration of Latin speaking populations from the territory of present-day Romania to the western Balkans. The etymology could also be explained in this way: in Romanian, fuşte means "lance"/"wooden baton", from Latin fustis. A diminutive of it is fus, meaning spindle. Hence, fusta means a fabric made using a fus. The -ela termination is a typical Romanian ending of diminutives, in this case of the Romanian fustă, meaning skirt.

[helinasson]

thanks sniper at least now we know who invented the minifustanella.

Your sarcastic eh? what do you know?

[Ehetlaios]

To "pyrrhic" legetai "Pyrrixio" sta neoellhnika, etsi?

[helinasson]

The Ghegs have a Celtic mix they don't look like their fellow countrymen Tosks.......

True, Tosks look more like Greeks.... Albanized greeks perhaps????!

[helinasson]

You are definitaly wrong.

Pyrrhyc dance.

The Pyrrhyc dance is still an alive popular dance in Greece.
What's wrong with you?? This is a Hellenic dance all the ways around.

[helinasson]

This my supose-friend is an /Arvan-ites/~~/Arban-ites/~~/Arben-ites/

Dictionarum Latino-Epiroticum

This is the only name Albanians call themselves(before Shqypetar).
ARBAN or ARBEN

So Epirioticum is Albanian??:p:p:laugh:
I have to open a new thread. I will show you an ancient script on a stele found in Epirus. Tell me if you understand just a single word from it then:laugh:

[TirAlb]

So Epirioticum is Albanian??:p:p:laugh:
I have to open a new thread. I will show you an ancient script on a stele found in Epirus. Tell me if you understand just a single word from it then:laugh:

Well according to what they say,at least in medieval times Epirote was the same of Albanian.Yeah it can't prove anything about ancient epirus,but ate least its enough to close "controversys",as that one about Scanderbeg,once and for all.
Ps. I saw the stele,and i did understood a single word!:rolleyes:

[Orphic_Hymn]

To "pyrrhic" legetai "Pyrrixio" sta neoellhnika, etsi?

Yup... apo to "Purrixh":

Strabo 10.3.8:

But since also the historians, because of the identity of name of the Curetes, have classed together things that are unlike, neither should I myself shrink from discussing them at greater length, by way of digression, adding such account of their physical habits as is appropriate to history. And yet some historians even wish to assimilate their physical habits with those others, and perhaps there is something plausible in their undertaking. For instance, they say that the Curetes of Aetolia got this name because, like "girls," they wore women's clothes, for, they add, there was a fashion of this kind among the Greeks, and the Ionians were called "tunic-trailing," and the soldiers of Leonidas were "dressing their hair" when they were to go forth to battle, so that the Persians, it is said, conceived a contempt for them, though in the battle they marvelled at them.

Speaking generally, the art of caring for the hair consists both in its nurture and in the way it is cut, and both are given special attention by "girls" and "youths";so that there are several ways in which it is easy to derive an etymology of the word "Curetes." It is reasonable to suppose, also, that the war-dance was first introduced by persons who were trained in this particular way in the matter of hair and dress, these being called Curetes, and that this dance afforded a pretext to those also who were more warlike than the rest and spent their life under arms, so that they too came to be called by the same name, "Curetes "--I mean the Curetes in Euboea, Aetolia, and Acarnania. And indeed Homer applied this name to young soldiers, choose thou the noblest young men from all the Achaeans, and bring the gifts from the swift ship, all that we promised yesterday to Achilles"; and again, the young men of the Achaeans brought the gifts.
So much for the etymology of the word "Curetes." The war-dance was a soldiers' dance; and this is plainly indicated both by the "Pyrrhic dance," and by "Pyrrichus," who is said to be the founder of this kind of training for young men, as also by the treatises on military affairs



Atheneus Deipnosophists 14.631:


........But the Pyrrhic dance is not preserved now among any other people of Greece; and at the same time that it has fallen into disuse, their wars also have been brought to a conclusion; but it continues in use among the Lacedaemonians alone, being a sort of prelude preparatory to war: and all who are more than five years old in Sparta learn to dance the Pyrrhic dance. But the Pyrrhic dance as it exists in our time, appears to be a sort of Dionysiac dance, and a little more pacific than the old one; for the dancers carry thyrsi instead of spears, and they point and dart canes at one another, and carry torches. And in their dances, they portray Dionysus and the Indians, and the story of Pentheus: and they require for the Pyrrhic dance the most beautiful melodies, and what are called the "stirring" tunes.

[boreans79]

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8561/fustanella2ne2.jpg
actually those picture if you look in historical sources and not in usual propaganda crap you'll see they show Greeks in ottoman times and ater that.Don't you agree? and give some links of them
do you lack of the appropriate clues to justify yourself so you twist facts?:rolleyes:


You are a very bad case of the delusion:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1746/fustanellazoompu2.png

[boreans79]

and Epirots are Greek!

And Epirots are Arbenesh which means Albanians.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/861/dictonariumlatinoepirotif8.png

[boreans79]

So are the ARVANITES-ARBANITES-ARBENIT(gheg)~ARBERIT(tosk)=ALBANIANS

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/1912/homeriliaduq2.gif

[Tsontos]

I dont think anyone doubts that arvanitika is a dialect of Albanian or that Arvanite is an Greek transliteration of a Albanian ethnonymn.

[boreans79]

I dont think anyone doubts that arvanitika is a dialect of Albanian or that Arvanite is an Greek transliteration of a Albanian ethnonymn.

Not everyone is open-minded and reasonable like you are Tsontos.

Watch the following video and you will understand why:

YouTube - Arvanites part II

[Morphesau]

Arvanites are Greek.

[boreans79]

Arvanites are Greek.

Modern Greeks or continuation of the ancient ones ?

[Morphesau]

Maximus Mazaris in his "Journey to Hades" (1415 AD) when describing the population of Peloponessos, describes the Albanians and Arvanites as two totally different people.

Anna Komnene in her "Alexiad" (1148 AD) mentions the Arvanites from Arvanon (book 7) separately from the Albanians who she refers to as "so-called Albanians" in contrast to the LOCALS of Dalmatia (book 6).

Michael Attaliatis in his "Historia" (1080 AD) mentions the Albanians and Arvanites as two separate people. With the first revolting against the empire and the second being subjects of the Duke of Dirrachion.

Simon Fitzsimons in his ‘Itinerary’ written 1322 during his journey to Jerusalem mentions that the south of the region now known as Albania was populated by a mixture of non-Albanian people (among them the Arvanites that wore distinctive white hats) that had only then received an Albanian influx by invading Albanians fleeing from Slavic domination in the area..

Of course its easy to understand exactly why we see records of the difference between the Arvanites and Albanians, especially after reading Michael Attaliatis' "Historia"

[boreans79]

Modern Greeks or continuation of the ancient ones ?

Modern Greeks are not a uniform body of people, and Arvanites are THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF IT.

They say:
We are the spirit and the body of Greece..

Does that mean they are the PROPER Greeks?

[boreans79]

Maximus Mazaris in his "Journey to Hades" (1415 AD) when describing the population of Peloponessos, describes the Albanians and Arvanites as two totally different people.

Anna Komnene in her "Alexiad" (1148 AD) mentions the Arvanites from Arvanon (book 7) separately from the Albanians who she refers to as "so-called Albanians" in contrast to the LOCALS of Dalmatia (book 6).

Michael Attaliatis in his "Historia" (1080 AD) mentions the Albanians and Arvanites as two separate people. With the first revolting against the empire and the second being subjects of the Duke of Dirrachion.

Simon Fitzsimons in his ‘Itinerary’ written 1322 during his journey to Jerusalem mentions that the south of the region now known as Albania was populated by a mixture of non-Albanian people (among them the Arvanites that wore distinctive white hats) that had only then received an Albanian influx by invading Albanians fleeing from Slavic domination in the area..

Of course its easy to understand exactly why we see records of the difference between the Arvanites and Albanians, especially after reading Michael Attaliatis' "Historia"

So the Arvanites are the real Greeks ? I know this.

But

How does the Albanians differ from Arvanites?
Ethnically? Linguistically? Historically?
How?

[Morphesau]

So the Arvanites are the real Greeks ? I know this.

But

How does the Albanians differ from Arvanites?
Ethnically? Linguistically? Historically?
How?

IMO they are of both intermixed btw Greeks and Albanians from long gone era ? Epiros was rich in Greek numbers in the past you know and is Anceint Greece. And couple of centuries later they are now Hellenised. Get over it.

So the Arvanites are the real Greeks ? I know this.

No kidding :rolleyes:

[olvios]

Arvanites have nothing to do with Ancient Greece.They are a late addition.

[Andrew]

Modern Greeks or continuation of the ancient ones ?

I don't know to tell you about Arvanites ...It's not impossible that they were "hellenized" Albanians.

But to your other question modern/greeks and Ancient Greeks or if you like the continuation of the Greek Race from Antiquity to to-day , I only have to say that the only way that the language survived in times were there were no Greek Schools and official Greek Government -take for instance early and midle Othoman Epmpire - is that there were carriers of the greek language ...
..so there were Greeks everytime ....were do you think they could of gone ???
Just because other came in Greece that dowes not mean that Greeks left or vanished and the factthat the language survived proves it !!!!

"A nation is the historical vehicle ofthe culture that represents"
Paola Philipson
I love that definition because it says to you that it isn't about who came or who went , it's all about what culture survived !!

[Orphic_Hymn]

Albania: a narrative of recent travel (1880)

Author: Knight, E. F. (Edward Frederick)

p.117-120

The natives, though of one race, maybe divided
into three classes, differing very much in manners
and character.

First, we have the Albanian
Mohammedan. This is the " wild Albanian kirtled
to the knee " — in North Albania, found chiefly in
the towns. He is the aristocrat, maybe an owner
of lands in the mountains, which he lets out to
Arnaut tenants, living on his rents. He is in-
tensely proud of his caste, a despiser of his
Christian fellow-townsmen. Courteous, gentle-
manly, not over strict in the observance of his
creed, he will drink raki on the quiet with an
easy conscience.

His walk is a haughty stalk. With his gold-
embroidered vest, bright sash — his leather pouch
in front, in which are stuck two gold-bilted jewelled
pistols and yataghan, his many-folded snowy
festinelle, or kilt, which swings from side to side
as he struts along — he is indeed an hnposing-
lookins; figure.

Secondly, we have the Christian town's-man of
the Latin Church — how different in every respect !
He wears the fez, Turkish jacket, baggy trousers
tied in at the knee, followed by white socks, and
European elastic-side boots.

As a Christian the law forbids him to carry arms.
There is the timid, fawning, insincere look in his
face, so characteristic of the oppressed. These
Christians are all traders or merchants, many of
them wealthy, but not daring to be over ostenta-
tious, for they live in fear and dread of their un-
scrupulous neighbours of the other creed, who
have on more than one occasion pillaged the Chris-
tian quarter. Their position is much what that of
the Jews was in medieval Europe.

The dress of the Christian town's-women is not
becoming, though exceedingly expensive. Their
robe is heavy and thick with gold embroidery,
which crackles loudly as they walk. Out of doors
they are enveloped in a very ugly red cloak : it is
baggy and shapeless. Take an egg, paint it reel,
cut a good slice off one end and stand it up — you
will form a very good idea of a Scutarine Christian
lady in outdoor costume. As they are veiled,
like the Mohammedans, it is equally impossible
to judge of the beauty of either face or figure.

Next we have the third class of the population,
the most interesting of all, the country people —
or rather, mountaineers, for little but mountain is-
there in North Albania. These are the Arnauts
— Skipitars,as they call themselves — a fierce, hardy
race of almost savages, independent, unconquered
by the Turks. They too are Latin Christians, but
how different from their co-religionists in the
town ! Their features are indicative of minds
that would not tolerate slavery. They stalk
proudly through the streets of the towns, bristling
with arms, notwithstanding the laws which forbid
the Christian to do so. These warlike tribes are
too strong to heed the regulations of the feeble
government. Their dress is simple, but very
manly and workmanlike. They are clad in white
homespun from head to heel. Their head-dress
is a white skull cap ; sometimes they twist a long
scarf round the head and under the chin, very
much in the style of the Bedouin — this is the
"shawl-girt head" that Byron speaks of;
a white jacket, with tight sleeves reaching to
the wrist, of thick woollen stuff, ornamented
with black braid here and there ; trousers of the
same material, and similarly black braided, baggy
behind, but thence close fitting to the leg until
they reach the ankle, where they are slit and open
out — exactly the cut indeed of the nether garments
of the American Indian, except that the lower
end is of thicker material, and has the appearance
of a gaiter, though it is of one piece with the rest
of the garment ; opunkas on the feet ; a sash
round the waist, of common red stuff or of silk,
according to the wealth of the man ; round the
waist a belt, with leather pouch in front, in which
the long beautifully worked pistols and yataghan
are stuck ; a belt of Martini-Henry cartridges over
the sash, if he own one of these rifles — if not, a
belt from which depend quaint elegantly- carved
cartridge and oil-rag boxes, of gold or brass, and
lon^ tassels of black silk.

Such is the appearance of an Arnaut moun-
taineer — a grand costume, showing off the supple,
erect frame — the very dress for a savage warrior.
The Arnaut, like the Mussulman, shaves his head,
leaving a little bunch of hair on the scalp. This
gives him a very Indian-like and ferocious ap-
pearance. No one who has not seen it can form
an idea how this shaving increases the savageness
of the expression.

[Peace Lover]

Fustanella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foustanella)

[chicagogeorge]

Greeks of the Mycenaean era 1600 b.c. wore kilt like warrior dress. Greeks of the 19th century wore kilt like warrior dress.

http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/siias/images1/mycenaeanvase2.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/chariot30.jpg
http://www.odysseyadventures.ca/articles/mycenae/charioteers.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

since you expect me to have an answer for your whole book I must say that the term 'Greeks' is used to show religion.
From your book I picked only one sentence(yellow underlined)

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2731/picture1um0.png

It says Greek costume.
Was it ???. NO.


You can't get over the fact the Byron called the fustanella Greek what ever. Here it is again.:clap2:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2002/greekfusraellakl5.jpg




Btw, nothing was said of religion in that book from the early 1800's Botzaris thought of himself as a Greek...:clapping:

[TirAlb]

child harold's pilgrimage canto 2


VII.

Richly caparisoned, a ready row
Of armèd horse, and many a warlike store,
Circled the wide-extending court below;
Above, strange groups adorned the corridor;
And ofttimes through the area’s echoing door,
Some high-capped Tartar spurred his steed away;
The Turk, the Greek, the Albanian, and the Moor,
Here mingled in their many-hued array,
While the deep war-drum’s sound announced the close of day.

LVIII.

The wild Albanian kirtled to his knee,
With shawl-girt head and ornamented gun,
And gold-embroidered garments, fair to see:
The crimson-scarfèd men of Macedon;
The Delhi with his cap of terror on,
And crooked glaive; the lively, supple Greek;
And swarthy Nubia’s mutilated son;
The bearded Turk, that rarely deigns to speak,
Master of all around, too potent to be meek,

LIX.

Are mixed conspicuous: some recline in groups,
Scanning the motley scene that varies round;
There some grave Moslem to devotion stoops,
And some that smoke, and some that play are found;
Here the Albanian proudly treads the ground;
Half-whispering there the Greek is heard to prate;
Hark! from the mosque the nightly solemn sound,
The muezzin’s call doth shake the minaret,
‘There is no god but God! - to prayer - lo! God is great!’



From Britannica

Botsaris’ early years were spent in the struggle between the Souliots of southern Epirus and Ali Paşa, who had made himself ruler of Ioánnina (Janina) in Epirus in 1788. After Ali Paşa succeeded in capturing the Souliot strongholds in 1803, Botsaris and most of his surviving clansmen fled to Corfu. He remained there for 16 years, serving in an Albanian regiment under French command.

The soldiers of that regiment were all christian Albanians,from places like suli and Himara,and all of them were obliged to dress "ala Albanaise",meaning with fustanella.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8307/londonnewsfustanellaalbeu3.jpg

Battle of Ulqin(North Albania),Albanian and Montenegrinian soldier.

[Orphic_Hymn]

M. Alison Frantz, Review: The Byzantine Pottery by Charles H. Morgan II

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/fustan1-1.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

The Cave at Vari. I. Description, Account of Excavation, and HistoryThe Cave at Vari. I. Description, Account of Excavation, and History
Charles Heald Weller


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/vari1.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/vari2.jpg




http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/vari3.jpg

and a clearer pic from wiki:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Nympholept.jpg/400px-Nympholept.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

Middle Byzantine Pottery in Athens
M. Alison Frantz


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/fig30.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/fig30-1.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

A Cross-Section of Corinthian Antiquities (Excavations of 1940)
Saul S. Weinberg




http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/fust.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

Notes on a Journey into the Balkan, or Mount Haemus, in 1847
A. Jochmus p.72


Usually the Chiiliin affluent of the Yantra is fordable during
all seasons, but a ferry-boat is kept in readiness during the
winter and early spring, at the station of Chiiliin. It can, however,
only carry over one horse at a time.
The dress of the Bulgarian women is very tasteful; that of the
men warm and comfortable; and the latter is far superior in style
to the effeminate modern Greek fustanella, or petticoat; though
it wants the dignified effect of the Mussulman turban. The Bulgarian
saddles and bridles are elegantly ornamented, and are only
surpassed by the neat Oriental taste of the Damascus work

[Orphic_Hymn]

The soldiers of that regiment were all christian Albanians,from places like suli and Himara,and all of them were obliged to dress "ala Albanaise",meaning with fustanella.



Is this presented in Britannica or your addition ?.. cause I can't find this "ala Albanaise" expression anywhere

[TirAlb]

Is this presented in Britannica or your addition ?.. cause I can't find this "ala Albanaise" expression anywhere

Yes,that's why its separated from the other part.That dressing "ala Albanaise" expression,was part of the regiment regulation,also only Albanian recruits were allowed.

[Draco]

TirAlb, all you have managed to prove is that Albanians also wore the fustanella. We already knew that, move on...

[TirAlb]

TirAlb, all you have managed to prove is that Albanians also wore the fustanella. We already knew that, move on...

..was my first post on this topic,but you can tell the others,that started this thread,to move on.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Yes,that's why its separated from the other part.That dressing "ala Albanaise" expression,was part of the regiment regulation,also only Albanian recruits were allowed.

OK fair enough, but its not exactly what I'd call accurate... there was noone "allowed" as if it was some form of prerogative but those formerly under Russia's service were oblidged to form regiments and take the oath of alligiance to "his Majesty the King and Emperor" and swear unity with the French troops.

Out of the three regiments of the Heptanese which the "population" were oblidged to form,(I say population since the order makes no reference to inhabitants other than Albanese, so since we can easily reject the suggestion of only them inhabiting the islands, just as we can reject the possibility of the rest of the population being exempted from a similar obligation, the term must be used as a general denomination for all inhabitants) one was a government guard stationed in Corfu and the other 2 light infantry mountain units.

But the official order of Sept. 1st 1807 signed by Governor General of Corfu, Caesar Barthier makes no reference to any form of dress code.. so whats your source?

[chicagogeorge]

After all this, here are some basic facts.

A) The fustanella like dress has been worn by Greeks since ancient times with out a doubt.
B) The Albanians also wear the fustanella.
C) We will never know where this form of dress originated

[TirAlb]

After all this, here are some basic facts.

A) The fustanella like dress has been worn by Greeks since ancient times with out a doubt.
B) The Albanians also wear the fustanella.
C) We will never know where this form of dress originated

Just add:

D) It has been worn since ancient times by albanians as well.

and we are all happy.

[chicagogeorge]

Just add:

D) It has been worn since ancient times by albanians as well.

and we are all happy.

I don't doubt that.

[Grace]

The Ghegs have a Celtic mix they don't look like their fellow countrymen Tosks.......

Hehehehe. And Greeks look all the same? Nice try to divide.

The only true thing Greeks have in common is their religion so a Kurd or a Georgian could have been a "Greek. "

[Grace]

After all this, here are some basic facts.

A) The fustanella like dress has been worn by Greeks since ancient times with out a doubt.
B) The Albanians also wear the fustanella.
C) We will never know where this form of dress originated


since ancient times or in ancient times (and now)? Can you back your continuity? You can see Albanian soldiers in Egypt wearing them and even in Saudi Arabia as they fought the Wahhabis, the Turks, and the Mamluks http://www.balkanium.com/gallery/v/Countries/Albania/Albanian+_amp_+Dog.jpg.html

[gmellos]

WHY are all of you fighting over a F'ING skirt!?????

[Grace]

WHY are all of you fighting over a F'ING skirt!?????

cause you managed to turn a manly thing, worn by real men, into a feminized skirt ;) Just kidding.

Anyway. If Greeks 2500 years ago something different than pants, you probably forgot it. FYI, check this:

http://data1.blog.de/blog/d/dedorru/img/Scottish_kilt.jpg

(and I am sure we can find many other cultures that wore "skirts" 1000's of years ago or even later but it's hard to establish continuance. Also in ancient Egypt I have seen such "skirt" like dresses. Borrowing is perfectly fine, we all give and take, especially in the Balkans but don't get mad if Albanians tease you, odds favor us in the skirt department ;).)


My reading of the paper: Basically, Greeks had an identity crises with Neo-Hellenism, not sure what to adopt as Greek, probably because of the people from Europe saying you shoud be like this and like that.

From: "Spiridon Loues, the Modern Foustanéla, and the Symbolic Power of Pallikariá at the 1896 Olympic Games" by James P. Verinis (Muse)


"Novelists and social scientists alike have often inquired about
modern Greek “essence.” By doing so they have problematized the
formation of modern (national) Greek identity, drawing attention to
what has been referred to as Greece’s annual “crisis of legitimacy”
(Manesis in Faubion 1993).1 Artemis Leontis has written extensively on
this topic (1995:112): “Neohellenes, in contrast [to Western Europeans]
have from their modern beginnings remained self conscious in an
inherent disparity between themselves and their Hellenic selves, an
identity itself divided between its modern and ancient/traditional
elements. From their modern institutions, they have encountered the
heterotopia of Hellas as a daily challenge to their present day integrity
and purity of origins.”"

My reading: When he wore it in 1896, it wasn't seen as "Greek," but as barbarian. Since the fustanella-wearing klepts "won the war" and Loues won the race, fustanella earned it's place in Greek culture as 'Greek enough'.


Here a few more snipets:
"Only in certain instances then was the foustanéla allowed to be
glorified in such a way, and only after it had been allowed to be Greek,
as opposed to Bulgarian, Serbian, Turkish, Vlach or Albanian in the first
place.14 Loues ushered in such a sentiment at these first modern
Olympic Games in Athens. Beginning on 24 March 1896, the eve of
Orthodox Easter as well as the seventy-fifth anniversary of Greek
Independence according to the Julian calendar, this first modern
Olympiad was steeped in Durkheimian effervescence. On the fifth day
of the Games, the marathon, a national issue at this point, was to take
place. N. E. Politis (1996:87) describes the marathon as a question of
national philótimo. It was no surprise that, when a Greek did win the
race, there was an explosion of enthusiasm throughout the country."

As opposed to earlier in the century, when
Kolokotronis was almost refused entrance to the palace of Greece’s first
king, the Bavarian Otho, for wearing a foustanéla,12 Loues came to
participate in a momentous occasion. Kolokotronis had not yet allowed
enough time for his dress to shed the “dirtier” and more barbaric of its
qualities. But Loues was not spared the scorn Kolokotronis experienced
simply because of the half century that separated them and the
associated changes in attitudes towards such clothing that had developed
during that time.


"Thought originally to have been a southern Albanian outfit worn by men of the Tosk ethnicity and introduced into more Greek territories during the Ottoman occupation of previous centuries, the “clean petticoat” of the foustanéla ensemble was a term of reproach used by brigands well before laograf¤a (laographía, folklore) and disuse made it the national costume of Greece and consequently made light of variations based on region, time period, class or ethnicity."



You have to admit that these Greek dances and dresses that Chams and Labs happened to know as well are very similar.

Also, is Tsam-iko related to Cham?

YouTube - Greek dance.
YouTube - Thessalia (Thessaly) Bracket
YouTube - Vlach Greek Dance

if someone has access to Muse you can read it in the entirety. He does not say it's Albanian, but hints at it, using the clever "Thought originally to have been" line.

[Grace]

Free article:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_modern_greek_studies/v023/23.1verinis.pdf

[Orphic_Hymn]

(and I am sure we can find many other cultures that wore "skirts" 1000's of years ago or even later but it's hard to establish continuance.
The only problem is that the Scotts didn't wear a kilt 1000yrs ago.


My reading of the paper: Basically, Greeks had an identity crises with Neo-Hellenism, not sure what to adopt as Greek, probably because of the people from Europe saying you shoud be like this and like that.

No identity crisis my friend since as you've seen in our previous discussion related to Suli that they knew quite well who they were and who they descend from. The issue was purely "European". Westerners had the twisted belief that they would come to Hellas and after the pass of some 2000-2500yrs encounter Aristotle and Perikles as if a day hadn't passed hence why oh, so many travvelers and writters rushed to make comparisons based on appearance, which they compared with Homeric texts and speech which they compared with Homeric verse, even though they expected to hear the Erasmic while we use the Reuchlinian pronunciation.


My reading: When he wore it in 1896, it wasn't seen as "Greek," but as barbarian. Since the fustanella-wearing klepts "won the war" and Loues won the race, fustanella earned it's place in Greek culture as 'Greek enough'.
The fact that some "progressivists" that prefered the more "sophisticated" western look saw it as backwards or barbarian if you prefer the term, has little to do with the general view.
Also while you enter such a debate, its interesting to note that you seem to ignore that the fustanella was already established as the national costume during the reign of Otto (wanted to be buried wearing it.. died 1867) which is decades prior to this event.. so we conclude that your conclusion is totally flawed and that the accuracy of the author's beliefs (since they obviously aren't facts) can be questioned.



Also, is Tsam-iko related to Cham?
To Tsamouria, just like so many other dances its titled by its geographic or historic origins.. see: Ikariotikos, Kalymnikos, Karagouna, Kerkyraikos,..etc


if someone has access to Muse you can read it in the entirety. He does not say it's Albanian, but hints at it, using the clever "Thought originally to have been" line.
Thought by whom? and who can take an author seriously when as Akritas already indicated, he distorts the text of his cited sources ?

[chicagogeorge]

We know that many Albanians wore the fustanella, but in this book

A Greek is identified with wearing the fustanella, while the Albanians whore a different traditional style of dress.

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2756/balkantrail2yh3.jpg

[Orphic_Hymn]

An abstract from Akritan Ikonography on Byzantine Pottery
James A. Notopoulos
Hesperia, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Apr. - Jun., 1964), pp. 108-133


A comparison of the fustanella warriors on the Byzantine plates with the klephts of the Greek Revolution of 1821-30, shown in the primitive paintings of Makriyiannes, shows that we are dealing in both instances with a garment which is peculiarly suited to a fast, mobile guerrilla mountain type of warrior. Professor Keramopoullos' study of the fustanella throws light on our problem. This highland kilt, which in 1833 was legally made part of the dress of the Greek army and survives today in the royal palace guard at Athens, has a long history.

The fustanella evolved from the Roman toga, shortened and with pleats added, as may be seen in statues of Roman emperors who wear a breastplate (lorica) above and a tunic ending in pleated kilts reaching to the knees. The transference of this shortened toga to central Europe, where the climate is colder, was accompanied by an increase in the number of folds to provide greater warmth. The fustanella as worn by the Greek peasants until recent times and by the Vlachs, whom Wace studied, is descended from the Roman military dress. The kinship of the Vlachs with the Romans may also be seen in the close relation of the Vlach dialect to Latin. In fact these Vlachs are descendants of Roman armies who kept watch on the Roman frontiers.

Being a military dress, as seen in the statues of emperors, it became the Roman dress of regular and mercenary troops who came from the conquered regions of Greece and the East. Since the mountain regions are barren, their hardy peoples turned to military service for a livelihood, remaining twenty years in the legions, and twenty-five in the auxilia. Dressed in their kilts these mountain-bred troops of the Roman army lived as milites limitainei in the distant frontier provinces of the Roman empire. Among such contingents in the Byzantine armies were the akrites who, as the name shows, guarded the frontiers.

A study of Byzantine art which portrays the Byzantine armies shows two types of kilted warriors. One is associated with the imperial Byzantine armies, officers, or emperors who usually wear a military helmet. They are heavily armed with a breast- plate and are always pictured on horse. The other is worn by foot soldiers who are described in the tenth century Byzantine treatise, Περί Παραδρομής Πολέμου, as οί ταχείς ψιλοί, ταχείς τής πόσι, and it is to this contingent of Akritan troops that our plates belong. They are not clad in armor, nor in helmets. They wear a cap, a cloth doublet, and their pleated kilt is unmistakably different from that of the other class of warriors.
Their kilt resembles the klepht fustanella; it is longer, more flared, fluid, and ornamented with decorative stripes, horizontal or vertical. It is this difference in kilts that distinguishes the warriors in the Byzantine plates from the imperial forces depicted in other manifestations of Byzantine art. The kilts in our plates belong to the akrites, whose garb is required by their way of life and the guerrilla type of warfare described in the Byzantine military treatise...................



............This kind of warfare, also described in the Akritan ballads, called for a fast mobile guerrilla type of soldier. What kind of dress is suitable for this kind of warfare? Nothing better than the fustanella worn by the Akritan warriors in the Byzantine plates.......

[Grace]

[QUOTE=chicagogeorge;90242]We know that many Albanians wore the fustanella, but in this book A Greek is identified with wearing the fustanella, while the Albanians whore a different traditional style of dress.[QUOTE]


wow. You have really solved the issue! So all Greeks wore that and anyone who wore that must be a Greek? Talk to Lord Byron, he stayed in the region for a long while.
which one is the Albanian here George:
http://www.albmuzika.com/costumes/veshjegjirokastra.jpg
http://www.dollsofindia.com/dollsofindiaimages/custom_dolls/pc49-albanian_l.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Women_in_Albanian_dress.jpg/93px-Women_in_Albanian_dress.jpg
http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2007/06/10/bush-albaniax.jpg

http://www.albmuzika.com/costumes/veshjetropoja.jpg


http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3064714.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=32F168F2F013CA9A238EE45C31FDEE79A55A1E4F32AD3138

http://www.tili.it/netdaysScutari/immagini/costumi.jpg

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3426897.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=D278A15CF533E62CDFF53A92A2D1DF78A55A1E4F32AD3138

[Grace]

The only problem is that the Scotts didn't wear a kilt 1000yrs ago.

No identity crisis my friend since as you've seen in our previous discussion related to Suli that they knew quite well who they were and who they descend from.

for another day. But I don't expect nationalist Greeks to admit that their main heroes are anything but Greek blood. You do however have to wonder why so many identified them as Albanian (in blood that is.)

Or you can write to the authors: André Gerolymatos for example says the same about the fustanella and defintely for Suli, write to him and he'll explain it, he cannot be considered an Albanian nationalist at all:

"Eventually their military reputation rose to such heights that it invited emulation of method, and soon, as mentioned earlier, the Albanians even set the fashion for Balkan warriors with their kilts. Eventually many Ottoman notables also adopted the Albanian look as did the Greek Klephts and the armatoli."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg8M9E4-94C&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=Eventually+their+military+reputation+rose+to+su ch+heights+that+it+invited+emulation+of+method&source=web&ots=t2HsAda4HI&sig=W90XsftIYuHZR9JrXorzb39ijtw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
.
or transcribed http://www.albanian.com/community/vbl/showthread.php?t=19024

The SULIOTS were a branch of THE SOUTHERN ALBANIAN TOSKS. and until the 17 C, their territory belonged to an Ottoman timariot (a landholding lord) based in Ioannina.

The spectacle captured the imagination of painters, poets, historians, and especially nationalists, who glorified the suicide pact by embellishing the story with heroic Suliot women singing and dancing before they leaped into history.

The Suliot dance of death is an integral image of the Greek revolution and it has been seared in into the consciousness of Greek schoolchildren for generations. Many youngsters pay homage to the memory of these Orthodox Albanians each year by recreating the event in the elementary school pageants...Every March 25, that day that also commemorates the outbreak of the Greek Revolution, children offer a performance in which the children dance around in a circle. At each turn, one child drops off to represent the Suliots who leaped off the precipice. The dance continuous until all children have left the stage. (ANDRE GYROLMATOS, The BALKAN WARS, page 137-141)
http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg8M9E4-94C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=Many+youngsters+pay+homage+to+the+memory+of+the se+Orthodox+Albanians+each+year+by+recreating+the+ event+in+the+elementary&source=web&ots=t2HsAda6FH&sig=qESCuM7EfxsjL2IqzJANcrmUV8k&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result







The issue was purely "European". Westerners had the twisted belief that they would come to Hellas and after the pass of some 2000-2500yrs encounter Aristotle and Perikles as if a day hadn't passed hence why oh, so many travvelers and writters rushed to make comparisons based on appearance, which they compared with Homeric texts and speech which they compared with Homeric verse, even though they expected to hear the Erasmic while we use the Reuchlinian pronunciation.

Maybe so, but since you push the genetic and civilization continuance with the old Greece it's fair. Admit that something happened, we became balkanized and now we're trying to do our best, and that problem is solved. Oh, and that populations mixed a lot to the point you can't tell who is a real Greek and who isn't. Only religion really unites you.


The fact that some "progressivists" that prefered the more "sophisticated" western look saw it as backwards or barbarian if you prefer the term, has little to do with the general view. Also while you enter such a debate, its interesting to note that you seem to ignore that the fustanella was already established as the national costume during the reign of Otto (wanted to be buried wearing it.. died 1867) which is decades prior to this event.. so we conclude that your conclusion is totally flawed and that the accuracy of the author's beliefs (since they obviously aren't facts) can be questioned.



I knew that, thanks to the klepts. It made sense. IIRC, didn't we see a picture of Otto in an "Albanian Dress."

Can we agree that based on what the author said, my conclusion were correct?


To Tsamouria, just like so many other dances its titled by its geographic or historic origins.. see: Ikariotikos, Kalymnikos, Karagouna, Kerkyraikos,..etc


Makes sense. In Albania too. So Greeks and Albanians Chams shared the same culture, dress, songs (minus religion)

Thought by whom? and who can take an author seriously when as Akritas already indicated, he distorts the text of his cited sources ?

I didn't see Akritas, but he should publish a paper since this was peer reviewed and point out the distortions. Apparently he read around, Byron too probably and said that "people" think it came from Albanians. Can we agree that the author doesn't care much about it's origins (like we do?)

[Orphic_Hymn]

for another day. But I don't expect nationalist Greeks to admit that their main heroes are anything but Greek blood. You do however have to wonder why so many identified them as Albanian (in blood that is.)

Or you can write to the authors: André Gerolymatos for example says the same about the fustanella and defintely for Suli, write to him and he'll explain it, he cannot be considered an Albanian nationalist at all:

Firstly, the stupidity you celebrate by throwing that nationalistic crap oh, so often is really getting annoying.
But while you throw the nationalistic label so easily, you fail to comprehend that the one acting like a nationalist is YOU!!!

Who is this A.Gerolymmatos and why is his belief, (cause thats exactly what he's expressing in his book and not some academic paper) to be considered more accurate than what the Suliotes have stated themselves and well known academic publications like Hysperia (The Journal of the American School of Classical Studies at Athens) have documented ?


Maybe so, but since you push the genetic and civilization continuance with the old Greece it's fair. Admit that something happened, we became balkanized and now we're trying to do our best, and that problem is solved. Oh, and that populations mixed a lot to the point you can't tell who is a real Greek and who isn't. Only religion really unites you.
While noone even mentioned them, but I see you're desparate to throw whatever you can...genetics didn't even exists during the time we're discussing and questioning cultural continuity is simply an indication of sheere ignorance.
But what do I have to admit, why do you need me to say that I (generally we Hellenes) were "balkanized" and what do you mean by this term and what is the actual problem other than your insistance on something that is evident.. why do you feel the desparate need to disassociate me from my ancestors.. would that feed your humbled ego ?

As for your belief of what unites us and what is significant for us, you're again totally wrong.

I knew that, thanks to the klepts. It made sense. IIRC, didn't we see a picture of Otto in an "Albanian Dress."
Since you allegedly knew it, why consider the text you cited which as proven has far too many holes in it, as accurate ?
But I can't help but note how you selectively read posts and nit-pick what suits you.. that my friend is the very posting guideline of a blind nationalist... When unable to counter an argument he simply avoids addressing it and continues to parrot his own version, no matter how twisted it may be.

What didn't you understand about the fustanella being depicted in Byzantine iconography since the 10th cent. AD?

Can we agree that based on what the author said, my conclusion were correct?
As long as you continue to reject what those you continue to claim relation have stated themselves, I see no way of any agreement taking place.


Makes sense. In Albania too. So Greeks and Albanians Chams shared the same culture, dress, songs (minus religion)
Not Hellenes in general, just those in Epirus which obviously came into contact with them.. A similar event is seen among Thracian and Bulgarian music and songs.. close proximity and social intermixing effects people's culture.


I didn't see Akritas, but he should publish a paper since this was peer reviewed and point out the distortions. Apparently he read around, Byron too probably and said that "people" think it came from Albanians. Can we agree that the author doesn't care much about it's origins (like we do?)
Sorry wrong topic.. couple of drinks do have such an effect..
His caring about the issue of not doesn't make his thoughts accurate now do they ?
We've already clarified that Otto not only didn't find the fustanella "dirty and barbaric" but that he literally adored it.. to such extent that he requested to be buried in it.. Now you honestly tell me(take the glasses of nationalism off prior to responding) if anyone can take an author that makes these kind of absurd claims seriously ?

[Grace]

I am done with this. As I said, I'll rely on scholars and with people that have no interest in promoting their own Balkan points of view. In this case, both are Greek, and very well respected scholars.

[Orphic_Hymn]

I am done with this. As I said, I'll rely on scholars and with people that have no interest in promoting their own Balkan points of view. In this case, both are Greek, and very well respected scholars.

Translation:
I'm a hypernationalistic fool that can't take the damn blinkers of nationalism off long enough to see that academic papers like Hysperia and archaeologists like Paul Rehak can't simply be promoting the descent from Tonga and Tunic theory to humble inferiority complexed Albanians.. The very same inferiority complexed Albanians, who are so full of it they openly reject the very words of those who's memories they allegedly cherish, while openly jump at every chance they find to discredit their own words and spit on their memory..

It was nice talking to ya Grace.

[Grace]

Translation:
I'm a hypernationalistic fool that can't take the damn blinkers of nationalism off long enough to see that academic papers like Hysperia and archaeologists like Paul Rehak can't simply be promoting the descent from Tonga and Tunic theory to humble inferiority complexed Albanians.. The very same inferiority complexed Albanians, who are so full of it they openly reject the very words of those who's memories they allegedly cherish, while openly jump at every chance they find to discredit their own words and spit on their memory..

It was nice talking to ya Grace.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511GXV9EWYL._SS500_.jpg
I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)

[Orphic_Hymn]

I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)

Cut the crap Grace.. you've presented your arguments and we presented ours.. the difference is that you choose to believe some "historian" above the very people you claim relation to..
As a final attempt to try and sho you what you're claiming... just think.. a similar case would be some historian in the year 2586 AD wrtting about you.. and claim that you were anything but Albanian.. those that would oppose to this claim (the nationalists according to you) would cite your own words, in which you openly state that you're nothing but Albanian.. yet some internet fool would suggest that the "historian" knows best and would totally disregard what you yourself have said and written...

So who's the blinded nationalist, the one that quotes some "historian" that has written not some academic paper, but a damn novel or the one that suggests that you knew what your beliefs were and cites your own words ?


While I've mentioned this more than a few times, I want you to read it and then comment on it.
The current authority of Albanology Dr. Robert Elsie has written the following article (http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1990Anonymi.pdf), I'd like you to read it and comment on the fact that he notes that Michael Attaliates, the very first Byzantine to write about Albanians, also mentions Arvanites as a separate entity!!! (see paragraph 1 lines 5-7)
Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the according to you, same people, by using two different names ?
(see M.Attaliates History 1.18.19 for the entry Albanians and 1.297.21 for the entry Arvanites)

[chicagogeorge]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511GXV9EWYL._SS500_.jpg

and what you don't realize is that by posting that Egyptian photo you are proving our point. That the fustanella is an ancient dress of the Mediterranean, adopted by a variety of cultures. The Greeks and Romans of course.



I am glad you remembered the ancient Greek traditions over the 2500 years, it would have been a shame to forget them. They are nationalists on both sides, but Greeks win hands down, from Scanderbeg was Greek to the Arvanites are (or were) not Albanian and Tosk Albanian are Greek (of course only the Orthodox ones.)


he fustanella that the Albanians opps! I mean the Illyrians opps! I mean the Pelasgians gave them? Don't forget that Napolean was Albanian too!:rolleyes:

Talk about nationalism.......

[TirAlb]

The current authority of Albanology Dr. Robert Elsie has written the following article (http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1990Anonymi.pdf), I'd like you to read it and comment on the fact that he notes that Michael Attaliates, the very first Byzantine to write about Albanians, also mentions Arvanites as a separate entity!!! (see paragraph 1 lines 5-7)
Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the according to you, same people, by using two different names ?
(see M.Attaliates History 1.18.19 for the entry Albanians and 1.297.21 for the entry Arvanites)

Elsie is not pointing out what you are claiming, because obviously for him Albanoi and Arbanitai is exactly the same thing,and however these names don't look different.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Elsie is not pointing out what you are claiming, because obviously for him Albanoi and Arbanitai is exactly the same thing,and however these names don't look different.

Does he really have to "point it out" ?
Do reread the sentence in question:

Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium

While this quite clear "and to the" needs no analysis, since you seem to disagree, why don't you present your responce to the question addressed towards Grace:

Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the, according to you, same people, by using two different names ?

[TirAlb]

Does he really have to "point it out" ?
Do reread the sentence in question:


While this quite clear "and to the" needs no analysis, since you seem to disagree, why don't you present your responce to the question addressed towards Grace:

Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the, according to you, same people, by using two different names ?

Because of the Gheg-Tosk division ,because,maybe both names were used at the time one from Greeks and the others from Latins, or just because he don't wanted to be ripetitive etc etc...

[Orphic_Hymn]

Because of the Gheg-Tosk division ,because,maybe both names were used at the time one from Greeks and the others from Latins, or just because he don't wanted to be ripetitive etc etc...

Problems in your suggestion:
a) that to Attaliates like all non-speakers of the tongue, the dialects would seem the very same thing, especially since they are mutually intelligible as we know today..

b) the possibility of a Latin/Hellenic name issue being the solution is impossible simply because we aren't citing two different (as in 1 Roman, 1 Hellenic author) but the very same individual. A single author that uses no other form of Roman title in his entire text.

c) we aren't talking about some poem.. in which the verse would be a major issue, the man is recording history..
Anyway, do explain... why does he allegedly use 2 terms for the Albanians which are only mentioned twice in his entire "Histories" but only the term Bulgarians for the Bulgarians which he mentions 9 times just in book 1 ?!?
Your suggestion of him trying to avoid repetition simply doesn't make sense.

[TirAlb]

Problems in your suggestion:
a) that to Attaliates like all non-speakers of the tongue, the dialects would seem the very same thing, especially since they are mutually intelligible as we know today..

b) the possibility of a Latin/Hellenic name issue being the solution is impossible simply because we aren't citing two different (as in 1 Roman, 1 Hellenic author) but the very same individual. A single author that uses no other form of Roman title in his entire text.

c) we aren't talking about some poem.. in which the verse would be a major issue, the man is recording history..
Anyway, do explain... why does he allegedly use 2 terms for the Albanians which are only mentioned twice in his entire "Histories" but only the term Bulgarians for the Bulgarians which he mentions 9 times just in book 1 ?!?
Your suggestion of him trying to avoid repetition simply doesn't make sense.

I don't really understand why do you keep going with this. Obviously Alban and Arban is exactly the same thing. Even today half of the word call us Albanians, but we use the term Shqipetar, and our people in Italy and Greece call themselves Arberesh or Arberor.You call them Arvanitas and their Albanian language Arvanitka.Turks call us Arnaut a term borrowed from Greeks.So we have all this names for the same people ,today, and you are surprised that Attaliates was using two different ones in medieval times.
then you must remember that Arbanitai and Albanoi,were both Illyrian tribes, and more likely the same tribe.

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.

In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.

In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

[Andrew]

Arvanites and Albanians ...the eternal issue ...!!!

I already expressed my opinion and discussed it with Tiralb and Grace so I don't want to repeat my "correlation coeficient thesis" again. My point is the EV13 discrepancy between Albanians (>30%) and Arvanitophon regions of Greece (Attica,Boetia,northeastern Peloponnese) (<10%).

So If you ask me -so far- I see the Arvanites as people from the Konstantinople region who migrated to the montainous "fortresses" of Albania and Epeirus after the the Kiutsuk Kainartzi incident in Asia Minor (1071 AD) and after the Fall of Costantinople to the Franks in 1204 AD.

By time they abopted the Albanian language and during the last century of the Byzantine empire or the first centuries of the Ottoman one they have migrated southwards.

By "looking like Albanians" (that is Muslims) paid no taxes to the Sultan and that permitted them to make money and became "ship owners" of the Aegean islands like Ydra,Spetses etc.

Anyway ..I'm not expert on this issue and that is simply my opinion so far !!

[Orphic_Hymn]

I don't really understand why do you keep going with this. Obviously Alban and Arban is exactly the same thing. Even today half of the word call us Albanians, but we use the term Shqipetar, and our people in Italy and Greece call themselves Arberesh or Arberor.You call them Arvanitas and their Albanian language Arvanitka.Turks call us Arnaut a term borrowed from Greeks.So we have all this names for the same people ,today, and you are surprised that Attaliates was using two different ones in medieval times.
then you must remember that Arbanitai and Albanoi,were both Illyrian tribes, and more likely the same tribe.

What do you mean why I keep on going.. I'm seeking answers and I believe its more than evident.

All your above examples are insignificant, why? well simply because your examples of different denominations which you suggest are used to describe "your people" come from different sources, as you yourself said: the world, you, us, Turks, your minorities...etc. While I'm specifically talking about a single individual who in a single book, uses the term Albanians to describe the soldiers situated in Italy that participated in Maniakes' revolt against the empire (I've quoted R.Elsie's chosen translation more than once) and then just a couple of lines down, uses a different ethnonym, which you suggest is used to describe the same people.
As explained IF this difference appeared during the examination of lets say, 2 or 3 texts indifferent if they were written by different authors or not, I wouldn't raise a single question. BUT that is not the case.

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called [B]Arbanios and Arbanitai.

In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.

In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

Ahh, wiki..(cause thats where you got these from) propaganda wars always get the best of this site...

well Polybius makes no single reference to Arbanius nor Arbanitas as names of the inhabitants so it would be interesting to know where the author of this wiki article found this..


Now the problem that the authors of this wiki entry haven't noticed is that Pliny's Olbonenses (3.21) are too far North to have any connection to the later Albanopolis since he mentions that they belong to the jurisdiction of Scardona, (today Skradin located in Croatia)

Polybius' Arbona is also too far North to have any relation to Ptolemy's Albanopolis. The text (2.11) is refering to the islands of the Adriatic (the blockading of Issa) hence the reference to Rhizon (today known as Rizan which is situated in Montenegro) and Pharon (the Adriatic island known as Hvar).. one wouldn't go too far to suggest that his (Polybius') Arbona is the island of Arba mentioned by Pliny (John Bostock and Henry Thomas Riley in their notes suggest that Arba and Crexa were ancient Cherso)

So sorry, but I just don't see how these people/places are related to Albania.. if you'd like to explain, I'm all ears.

[Grace]

Does he really have to "point it out" ?
Do reread the sentence in question:


While this quite clear "and to the" needs no analysis, since you seem to disagree, why don't you present your responce to the question addressed towards Grace:

Tell me why would the same author (Attaliates) make reference to the, according to you, same people, by using two different names ?

very simple: since all we have is this sentence, here's a few possible explanation:

regions. clans. In Albanian people even today may identify as a Lab, Vlonjat, Mirditore, Malesore etc. Did everyone in Greece say "I'm a Greek"? NOPE. To try to figure out where Albanians came from based on one word, is pushing it.

Andrew,
Arvanites, Hydra Albanians etc. moved around, especially since 40% of Greece is in one city, Athens. Also the founder effect, genetic drift and bottleneck, might explain the Kosova 0.43 percentage of Ev-13. That is some 8,000 years old for the record. Most of Greece has about 18% so that is no chump change...cousin :)

Poor Serbs, we will send them back to Russia as soon as we can confirm the DNA.

[Orphic_Hymn]

very simple: since all we have is this sentence, here's a few possible explanation:

regions. clans. In Albanian people even today may identify as a Lab, Vlonjat, Mirditore, Malesore etc. Did everyone in Greece say "I'm a Greek"? NOPE. To try to figure out where Albanians came from based on one word, is pushing it.

I thought you said a few.. anyway.
Noone is searching for "where Albanians came from" so don't even try to take it there. Especially since I'm not the one trying to link non-related people found in classical texts to the Albanians (see inventing names Arbanius nor Arbanitas not included in the original texts or suggesting connections to the geographically non-related Olbonenses).

The issue is clear, we have an author who in his book (and not a single sentence) describes the Albanoi to be populating the Italian regions of the empire beyond Rome and following Maniakes in his revolt against the Empir.. and the Arvanites as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.
see authority on Albanology Robert Elsie (http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:LFZ5ZlcXiG0J:www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1991EarliestRef.pdf+elsie+dyrrachium&hl=el&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=gr&client=firefox-a)

Since as I believe even you have claimed that Alb- and Arv- are the same thing, the question remains unanswered. Why would the same author in the same book (only a couple of lines down) make reference to the same people by using a different name, why not use one or the other term since there's no difference between Alb- and Arv- or even better Albanoi - Arvanites ?


Andrew,
Arvanites, Hydra Albanians etc. moved around, especially since 40% of Greece is in one city, Athens. Also the founder effect, genetic drift and bottleneck, might explain the Kosova 0.43 percentage of Ev-13. That is some 8,000 years old for the record. Most of Greece has about 18% so that is no chump change...cousin :)

Poor Serbs, we will send them back to Russia as soon as we can confirm the DNA.
I know that the 43 comes from Pericic's paper, but where does the 18% come from?
I'm curious cause in 2004 Semino noted a 47% in Peloponessos and in 2008 King notes 35.1 in Thessaly (Dimini, Sesklo) and Peloponessos (Frachthi, Lerna in Argos prefecture).. this declines in Makedonia, 14.0 (Nea Nikomedia Veroia prefecture) and further in Crete where we find 6.7.

But I can't help but notice that you've started the same old BS theories again of us Hellenes having Albanian roots.. hence the "moved around" and that "cousin"..
You seem incapable of comprehending that your theory simply can't stand since its based on a couple accounts of Albanian being spoken in Athens.. As I've already told you, don't look at Athens today, when Hellas was liberated Athens was but a village composed of a population of some 4000 souls.. The entire prefecture had slightly over 7000 inhabitants and Peiraias and Faliro together had the massive total of 46!!! (note that the 46 include the monks from the monastery of St. Spyridon)..
So even if you could convince some to believe that the "distributors" were Albanians, your theory falls apart by simple math since 4000 souls isn't even 0.6 of the country's total populaiton upon the time of our liberation.

[Andrew]

Andrew,
Arvanites, Hydra Albanians etc. moved around, especially since 40% of Greece is in one city, Athens. Also the founder effect, genetic drift and bottleneck, might explain the Kosova 0.43 percentage of Ev-13. That is some 8,000 years old for the record. Most of Greece has about 18% so that is no chump change...cousin :)

Poor Serbs, we will send them back to Russia as soon as we can confirm the DNA.

Genetic Drift sure happened ..but not that much to erase a initial high value of EV13.

Grace we both know that the Spetses & Hydra inhabitants spoke Arvanitika in late 1800. If they were of Albanian descent then they should have EV13>30% ok ?? Know genetic drift and population movement ...

The main value of EV13 in Greece is 21% . Even if the Arvanites have mixed RANDOMLY with other Greeks ...the result should of give a new value of EV13>21% (!!!)

Watch carefully If the Arvanites were Albanians and lets say have mixed 1:10 with the other Greeks ..the nthe result would of be:

EV13 = (1x30+10x21)/(1+10) = 21,818181% !!!

As I told you Hydra today has 10% of EV13 !!!

The only way that this should happen to a Albanogenic population is to mix specificaly only with non Balkanian populations (who have a main value of EV13 of 6%).

The proportion of mixture of 30% and 6% in order to give you 10% is ...

x+y = 1 and 10=30x+6y ...solve the 2x2 linear system ond you have :

x=1/6 and y=5/6 ...this means that if they were Albnanians then they have mixed 1:5 with NON BALKANIANS in order to have todays numbers .....!!!

Do you find it probable ??