Greece is falling far behind

[Xiotis]

Greece and Greek diaspora organizations have fallen far behind FYROM in terms of promoting their agenda. The FYROMian diaspora is well organized and funded when it comes to promoting their views on websites and even on TV. Appearently a new commercial campaign is going to start on CNN where viewers will be enticed to visit 'Macedonia'. The official 'tourist portal' of FYROM has funded a 'neutral' looking website describing the alleged history of Macedonia:

http://adventures.yahoo.com/macedonia;_ylt=ApnHcZ0fJB.vu69lA.zFq4XDW8sF;_ylu=X 3oDMTBjamtzcG1mBHNlYwNoei1zdG9yeQ--

Im sure Richard Bang did not write any of the introductory text or subsequent source material on the yahoo site.

The FYROMian diaspora has funded publishing history books authored by 'J S Gandeto', a pseudonym used by Josif Grezlovski:

Amazon.com: Ancient Macedonians: Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The: J. S.G. Gandeto: Books

FYROMian nationalist web designers have concocted many propaganda websites promoting their distortions and lies. It seems to be the same group behind alot of the propaganda sites: Slavko Mangovski, Stefov, Lubi Uzunovski (admin and web designer of maknews.com), Bill Nicholov and Josif Grezlovski.

The Greek diaspora has far more resources and credibility but is not countering the propaganda with the truth. The FYROMians are far more organized and are reaching a wide audience with their lies and distortions.

Are there any organizations in the diaspora or ministries in Greece that can be informed? A more progressive and thoughtful approach needs to be taken to counter the lies and propaganda.

[Voulgaroktonos]

Its the Greek governments fault for not giving a rat's ass

[HellenicPride]

You are right about that the Greek government does not seem to concern themselves with that matter. But as Greeks we should be taking the matter into our own hands.

[Xiotis]

You are right about that the Greek government does not seem to concern themselves with that matter. But as Greeks we should be taking the matter into our own hands.

I spent some time in Greece last year and to be honest with you guys I dont think anyone really cares about FYROM [this is just from the time i spent in Athens and the Islands]. Dont get me wrong, they do think they are a joke for trying to appropriate ancient Macedonian history and for trying to assign an ethnic significance to the identifier 'Macedonian' but the regular people I spoke with seem disinterested in the subject.

This is a contrast to what the nationalist FYROMians assert. They think the whole country is mired in a conspiracy to hide the existence of 200 - 500 thousand of their compatriots in Northern Greece. The fact is there are probably only a few thousand who have a so called 'Macedonian' national consciousness. They also think the country is obsessed with trying to hold on to Greek Macedonia at any cost. I dont think regular Greeks even think of or even know of the irridentist aspirations of the nationalist FYROMians.

To give you an example of the FYROMians demonization efforts: On one of their propaganda websites I read a supposed letter written by one Pavle Soijkov [who I believe is the same character that posts under the name 'Ilinden' in many news groups] who wrote how he was harrassed at Athens airport and asked all sorts of questions. You can read it here:
http://umdiaspora.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=118&Itemid=76

I believe the whole thing was made up and just another effort to demonize Greece and everything Greek by the FYROMian nationalists. The reason I think it is false is because my wife and I travelled to Greece with a couple. The man is a Bulgarian and the woman is Croatian. The man's last name could have easily been FYROMian and he was never challenged anywhere we went. We were at Athens airport no less than 3 times going to different places and he was never given a hard time. The FYROMians in the diaspora are doing everything they can to demonize Greece and to give the impression the whole country is obsessed with the 'Macedonian' issue. If anyone has ever read any of the postings on maknews.com it is very appearent that the efforts of the nationalists are having a large influence on the young diaspora generation who have never even been to FYROM. They are doing a great job of influencing a generation to hate everything Greek. Do you guys remember when those school kids murdered an Albanian kid in Greece (I think the child was Albanian). Right away on numerous FYROMian forums this unfortunate event was portrayed as being the product of a xenophobic racist Greek society. The fact is that not only was a Greek child involved but children of other ethnic backgrounds were involved in the killing.

We have seen how well their diaspora is organized from the recent 'Macedonia' exposition on Yahoo and from the fact that they are willing to pay a lot of money to advertise on CNN. They have put numerous adds in major American newspapers describing their plight. They publish books under pseudonyms and sell them on amazon. I dont see any Greek culture ministries or well funded american/canadian/australian diaspora organizations countering these propaganda attempts with the level of organized effort exhibited by the FYROMians.

[Istor]

How much Greeks really care about Macedonian name was visible in the times of USA's recognition of that country uner its constitutional name. Political parties made huge efforts to reduce their member's reactions, who could be really mad. Don't think that Greeks don't care because they don't speak about it. Or because they love good living.

I answer daily to makenews idiocies here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/448385/

What Greece doesn't do it's up to us Greeks and our hands to do. So, fight.

FYROM paid huge money do CNN and Yahoo and other places to promote its tourism and name. I think they will fail in tourims but gain in name. And imagine people coming in FYROM to see ancient Macedonian artifacts!!

[Voulgaroktonos]

Theres a big difference between diaspora Greeks and Greece Greeks. Only people who are quite educated and can be bothered or come from a nationalistic family would give a stuff about it, it seems to me.

[Ptolemy]

The right tactic lies on playing Offensive rather than playing Defensive as all the last years Greeks are doing. If Skopjans exploit all the human rights reports against Greece then turn the same tool against them.

Right now, NOONE from greek side cares to spend some time collecting and making public for the rest of the world, FYROM's human rights, when they treat Albanians and Romas as second class citizens.

Take a look in the "Albanians in Macedonia Crisis Center".

http://www.alb-net.com/amcc/humanrights.htm


The Macedonian Constitution:

The preamble of the Macedonian Constitution starts with the following:
"... the historical fact that Macedonia is established as a national state of the Macedonian people, in which full equality as citizens and permanent co-existence with the Macedonian people is provided for Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Romanics and other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia..."(Our emphasis)
[http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/Constitution.html

"Despite government promises to reform Macedonia's overly exclusive 1992 citizenship law in line with Council of Europe standards, the law remained unchanged. Drafted at the time of its independence from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Macedonia's citizenship law never adequately resolved the status of the significant number of Yugoslav citizens who were long-term residents in Macedonia but who were neither born in Macedonia nor ethnic Macedonian. Large numbers of ethnic Albanians, Turks, and Roma who knew no other home than Macedonia remained effectively stateless as a result of the law." http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/europe/macedonia.html

Discriminatory provisions in the constitution translate into second class treatment of all Albanians by the Macedonian government. Albanians, whether they are long-term residents or fully acknowledged citizens of Macedonia, are systematically excluded from full participation in public life.

If there is to be an equal treatment among the various ethnic groups, shouldn't the Macedonian Constitution state that Macedonia is established as a state of/for the Macedonian citizens?

"Ethnic Albanians allege that the constitution reduces them to second-class citizens and must be amended. They argue that the Albanian language should be a second official language in the country.
Albanians say the authorities consistently deny them the right to "feel Albanian" and to display national symbols."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1224000/1224776.stm

"The key to Macedonian stability rests with the Albanians and the Macedonians. Albanians have their representatives in the Macedonian government and they are supporting Macedonias integrity. In the long run, though, Macedonia has to become a state based on citizenship and not on nationality. The Macedonian state must cease to identify exclusively with the Macedonians as an ethnic group, it must cease to be the state of the Macedonians. Otherwise, there is not going to be any kind of peace in Macedonia no matter how much support is given to Macedonians and Gligorov by the international community. In the past, the Albanians in Macedonia have shown that they could live in peace with the Macedonians. It is the Macedonian state which should do more to convince the Albanians to support Macedonia. If the Macedonian state is able to solve its internal matters in the proper way, that is by becoming the state of all citizens of Macedonia, there should be no reason for the international community to continue to live in fear that Macedonia will dissolve at any regional whirlwind. Albanians in Macedonia will support the integrity of the Macedonian state." http://www.albanian.com/IJAS/vol2/is1/art1.html

Education:

"In July, the government adopted legislation to resolve the long-standing question of Tetovo University, a private Albanian-language institution that Macedonian authorities refused to accredit as an educational institution. The passage of the law on education on July 25 established a new multi-lingual tertiary institute offering training in business, education, and public management. The internationally funded institution, intended as a replacement to Tetovo University, would allow Albanians to study in their own language, although a proficiency test in Macedonian would be required before their diplomas were officially recognized. Despite receiving the backing of the Albanian party in the ruling government coalition, the new institute did not receive unequivocal support from the country's ethnic Albanian population, many of whom wanted nothing less than the recognition of Tetovo University itself." http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/europe/macedonia.html

Even thought Albanians are tax paying citizens, the Law for Higher Education forbids establishing highe level educational institution (Colleges and Universities) in other languages besides Macedonian. Until recently, the establishment of even private University in Albanians language was against the law.
The beginning of the privately funded Tetova University (still considered unofficial by Macedonian Government) was smeared by killing of a local Albanian man who was protesting against the attempt by the Macedonian police to stop the operation of the University.

Recently, with the help of the OSCE, the Macedonian Government agreed to the establishment of the privately funded with foreign investment of the Southern-Eastern University, also in Tetova. This is definitely a step in the right direction. However, why is the Macedonian Government still against the establishment of a University whose language of instruction will be the Albanian language?

Why are the Albanians in Macedonia as tax paying citizens not allowed to pursue University education in their mother tong in an institution supported by their tax money?

Employment:

"In May 2000, the Macedonian Parliamentary Commission on International Relations released a report on the breakdown of ethnic workforces in the country.
The figures showed that the country's workforce is 84.5% ethnic Macedonian and 9.4% ethnic Albanian - the potential ethnic Albanian work force is 18.5% of the total population.
In the police force and the military, for instance, ethnic Albanians contributed 3.1% of the employees while the ethnic Macedonians made up 93.9%.
A similar situation exists in other sectors of public life, including the judiciary and the health system.
Ethnic Albanians are therefore frustrated that when they have to deal with the authorities, even in cities like Tetovo with an overwhelming Albanian majority, they have to face ethnic Macedonians and communicate in what they consider a foreign language."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1224000/1224776.stm

[akritas]

Lubi Uzunovski also is web disigner of the
Rainbow Party/Vinozhito, http://www.florina.org and
Macedonian Canadian Historical Society, http://www.macedonianhistory.ca
Pollitecon Publications m http://www.pollitecon.com/

I want to add my thaughts also regarding the thread.

As I see most of you are Diaspora Greeks. Xiotis you are wrong as aboutin your opinion of what Greeks want as about the Macedonia issue.There are a lot of Greeks that try to find solutions as about the issue.For me issue is the propaganda. Propaganda not only from the Skopjan side but also and from our side.Great example is the known "Greek" that post in our forum.You will meet alot of them in the Greek forums.Unfortunly we make a lot of mistakes in the past.Mistakes that we continue to doing and today. Some olders(web time) than me know very well that the Diaspora Skopjan propagnada work very well.I beleive that they live from this.They spread the nationalism by pressing theirs goverments via the financing. FYROM is a poor country.Is like the Greece in the 50s.
Consequently, during negotiations,deabates for FYROM’s name, we must cannot fail to decisively demand-show:

The essential, and actual, recognition of Greece’s sovereignty over the entire Greek territory. This simply means that Greek Macedonia—from the prefectures of Kastoria and Florina in the west to Drama in the east—cannot be referred to in public documents, web sites ,maps and school textbooks as ‘Aegean Macedonia under Greek rule.’ After all, its name is internationally known as ‘Greek Macedonia.’By the same measure, today’s official place names in Greek Macedonia should be respected.
Respect for the Greeks’ Macedonian cultural identity and heritage. The erection of a statue to Alexander the Great in Skopje,Prilep (recently) as ridiculous as it may seem, would invariably sustain cultural antagonisms. We must press by sending e-mails,letters when we see any mark as about this.
We must avoid the nationalism. It is time for our region to shift its energies and outlook toward the future within a common European family by avoid words such as ...how many years will be here and e.t.c.. And family life always demands compromises.We must not forget that the Skopjans are the net mockeries as about the issue

[Voulgaroktonos]

The complete dissolution of Skopia is possible.