Other Albanians and other Arvanites! (funny from a Greek 'Political Scientist')

[Grace]

Constantine Holevas.
(Political Scientist)

*Published in "Epirotic Future" newspaper.

Ignorance or even distortion of History promotes this fake opinion that was heard on the occasion of the "affair Odysseus Tsena'j",that the great Greek heroes of 1821 and of the later national fights were Albanians.There becomes a confusion with the Arvanites,the Arvanite-speaking Greeks.Other, however, Albanians and other Arvanites.There is a big difference:
Markos Botsaris,was an Arvanite-speaking Greek, as all of the Souliotes were. His Greek conscience appears also from the eminent phrase that it said when he went for first time in Heptanisa. "A Greek cannot feel free there where the British flag has risen". The Dictionary he wrote was of the "Arvanite dialect - no of the Albanian - and of the demotic Romeika" (Modern Greek).After all,he could not have Albanian national conscience, because that hardly presents in 1878 with the Ling of Prizren -Cosovo and,of course, as an artificial fabrication of foreigner forces and religious propaganda. During the Ottoman domination did not exist any nation of Albanians.
The inhabitants of current Albania distinguished by their religion.Orthodoxs were Romians, and they included in the same gender with the remainder Greeks.

The Muslims felt Turks, from where the term Turkalbanians came.If we speak for Albanian attendance to the Greek Revolution we should not report the Botsars,Bouboulina and the Kountouriotes,but in the Turkalbanians,those who were used by the other side as slaughterers of Greeks.

Our Byzantine ancestors did not report any Albanians in the Balkan. Konstantinos Porfyrogenitos names Albanians a race...of Caucasus.

Georgios Kastriotis - Skenterbeis, whom is considered as a national hero of current Albanians, named himself as Orthodox Epirote (15th century).In documents of the Democracy of Venice in the dues of 15th century the word Albanian is interpreted as "Greeks from the Epiros and Peloponnesos",without disputing their Greek conscience. The Albanian national conscience is, undeniably, an allien fabrication, as they prove also different testimonies,that recorded by the Balkanologist Achilles Lazarou.

When Italy and Austrohungaria, for their own reasons, tried manufacture an Albanian state, so checking the entry of the Adriatic sea, the Turkalbanians raised in the Dyrrahion the Ottoman flag. They preferred the Turkish, than the unknown to them Albanian national conscience.

Even in the Balkan wars the Muslims of Albania fought and in particular dynamically in the orders of the Ottoman army. Afterwards 1908, many of the members of the Neoturk country, that began the persecution of the Greeks,were Turkalbanians.The word Albania means White Country, from the Latin ALBA (white).It is a term with geographic and no ethnical meaning. The term Arvanitis, that concerns the Souliotes, their Hydrians, the Spetsiotes and a lot of the inhabitants of Mesogia, it emanates from entirely different root. From the word Arva-non, a toponym of Notherner Epiros, that we already find since the 11th century in the texts of Anna Komnini. From the Ardanon, that is to say from the very Greek Notherner Epiros, they went down in cities and islands of Southerner Greece Greek populations that spoke the arvanite dialect. That is to say, a dialect mixed with ancient Greek, Latin, Turkish and local Balkan glossical elements.

The arvanite-speaking Greeks did not have different conscience from the remainder Greeks. Resembling example are they slav-speaking Greek Makedonian fighters Kottas, Kyrou, Ntalipis etc that fought in Greece's favour against the Bulgarians komitajis as well as the Turk-speaking Orthodoxs of Kappadokia that kept via the Church their Greek character, even if they lost their Greek language.

The bilingual Greeks, arvanite-speaking,vlah-speaking,slav-speaking etc they offer to us characteristic proofs that in the Balkans, at least at the last five centuries,the Orthodox faith - and more generally the religion - shapes the national conscience much more even than the linguistic idiom.

The confusion between the words Albanian and Arvanitis is created only in the Greek language, because they resemble the two terms soundly. The similarity is only in the surface. In the substance they differ by far. After all, even the Albanians themselves call themselves as Sqiptars and their country as Sqipteria(country of Eagles).What in common a Sqiptar can have with an Arvanite-speaking Hellene?Perhaps one can understand certain words from the other.But this does not mean that they had or they have the same national conscience.Do not forget that Serbs, Croats and Bosnian muslims speak precisely the same language,despite that they had conflicts between them with painful consequences.

I respect and I comprehend the efforts of politicians and journalists limit the potential phenomena of racism and xenophobia, even if the roots of problems have
not been studied rightly, in our society. However something like that does not become with ignorance or falsification of historical truth.

Let's learn well our History, in order to honor also the Greek Arvanites for their national offer and with the neighbour Albanian population let's maintain relations of good neighborhood, without of course forgeting the Greek community of Notherner Epiros.
http://p100.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm141.showMessageRange?topicID=230.topic&start=1&stop=20

=============
Is this guy anyone famous in Greece? I don't know where to start

[Kiril Evangelovski]

Is this guy anyone famous in Greece? I don't know where to start

Why don't you simply not start. Close to two decades after flooding Greece you people still have to manage to successfully convince my people that we're one and the same. In as much as I disagree with Cholevas on many issues (including things he writes in the text above) his heart is in the right place: Arvanites willingly shaped the modern Greek nation to be as it is and are an indispensable constituent part of it - even if you could prove half my family has 99.99% identical DNA to your own, you would be no more my "brother" than Attila the Hun (whose DNA I possibly also share - and before you ask, I claim no descent from Pericles). And based on the garbage you insist on spewing you are exactly the kind of nationalistic vermin that the world needs far less of. Ai Kihou.

And for your "education" (if one can educate a moron): Cholevas is not famous but he is fairly well known within moderate nationalistic cycles. He does not hold a professorship at any University that I know of - we've reserved these places for internationalists that hate Greeks and adore the fuckwit nationalists among their neighbours. ;)

[Grace]

Why don't you simply not start. Close to two decades after flooding Greece you people still have to manage to successfully convince my people that we're one and the same. In as much as I disagree with Cholevas on many issues (including things he writes in the text above) his heart is in the right place: Arvanites willingly shaped the modern Greek nation to be as it is and are an indispensable constituent part of it - even if you could prove half my family has 99.99% identical DNA to your own, you would be no more my "brother" than Attila the Hun (whose DNA I possibly also share - and before you ask, I claim no descent from Pericles). And based on the garbage you insist on spewing you are exactly the kind of nationalistic vermin that the world needs far less of. Ai Kihou.

And for your "education" (if one can educate a moron): Cholevas is not famous but he is fairly well known within moderate nationalistic cycles. He does not hold a professorship at any University that I know of - we've reserved these places for internationalists that hate Greeks and adore the fuckwit nationalists among their neighbours. ;)

Easy there. We flooded your country, that's true. Poverty and desperation makes people do such thing. When we leave, Nigerians and Pakistanis will do what we do: pick olives, farm work, wash dishes, clean hotels etc. Greece needs the labor, hospitality is very labor intensive:

Companies in Bulgaria's tourism industry are finding it more and more difficult to recruit labour force and warned they will be short of 30,000 workers next year.http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=85801

As for Arvanites being of Albanian descent: I think it's much more established than the average Greek's connection to ancient Greece, but we've gone through those threads and many on the Greek side don't want to admit (and that's OK.) I just wanted to see who he really is. He is also saying that any orthodox is Greek, they just lost the language and Greeks will happily re-teach them. I know modern Greece was founded based on religion but this is sweeping, and may explain why Greece is giving out passports and pensions in southern Albania to Vlachs and many Albanians as well. Maybe his heart is in the right from your perspective but bashing others with invented tales or convenient omissions, does not help the relations. They are other people and nations beside you.

I just re-read your post again: Actually it is Greeks that say that the at least half of the Albanians are Greeks (thus the attempts to hellenize,) so get that straight. I am extremely happy to be Albanian, and don't wish to be your "brother," especially not yours personally. If you're hinting that we're poor or not as formally educated, I just want to remind you that things do change, and finally we're getting some international embrace. Greeks left Greece too until relatively recently.

[Kiril Evangelovski]

Easy there. We flooded your country, that's true. Poverty and desperation makes people do such thing. When we leave, Nigerians and Pakistanis will do what we do: pick olives, farm work, wash dishes, clean hotels etc. Greece needs the labor, hospitality is very labor intensive:

Somehow I doubt that your compatriots will leave anytime soon. If they do godspeed to them. I have nothing against those hard-working souls that are willing to work peacefully in Greece or even join the Greek nation in time but there's far too many of your ilk (and by that I mean ideology) for comfort. Some of them think they already own the place.


As for Arvanites being of Albanian descent: I think it's much more established than the average Greek's connection to ancient Greece, but we've gone through those threads and many on the Greek side don't want to admit (and that's OK.)

Thanks for the OK your intellectual highness. :p As far as I am concerned it is reasonable to claim that Arvanites and modern day Tosk Albanians share a common ancestry but that is not exactly what you mean by "Arvanites being of Albanian descent" now is it? ;)


I just wanted to see who he really is. He is also saying that any orthodox is Greek, they just lost the language and Greeks will happily re-teach them. I know modern Greece was founded based on religion but this is sweeping,

One has to separate past history from the current state of affairs:
It is established (by many contemporary reports) that as far as Elbasan many if not most Orthodox Albanians (even more so in the case of Vlachs) claimed themselves to be Greek up to some point late in the 19th century. And that despite using Greek only in church and school etc.. In fact, the renowned Gustav Weigand was reportedly extremely frustrated at his failure to convince the Orthodox Albanians of Elbasan to switch to Albanian-speaking churches and schools and stop sending their kids to Athens for higher studies. Of course that is not anything unusual as national identity is a political and not a primordial social construct. And the modern Greek nation, as an evolution of the Rum milliet, naturally considered the flock of the Patriarch in Constantinople (and not all Orthodox) as part of its unclaimed brotherhood. That was the case then - before the emergence of a competing national identity in Albanian nationalism (which unlike the Greek one centered on ethnic lineage). Albanian nationalism did have successes among the Albanian Orthodox in Albania proper (Fan Noli would have been the greatest failure ever otherwise) but even at the time of the creation of the modern Albanian state, many Orthodox Albanians (and Vlachs) joined the Greeks in their failed attempt to create an independent North Epirot state eventually to be joined to Greece. You can rave all you like about how they were brainwashed etc. but they joined a different national cause willingly.

That was then. After almost a century of an Albanian nation-state and even more of an Albanian national ideal (with associated national history, ethnography etc.) it comes as no surprise that most if not all of these Albanians now feel as very patriotic members of the Albanian nation. Hell, you can even find people of ethnic Greek origin outside the minority zones that now feel as Albanian patriots. That is the natural course of events in the process of nation-building within a nation-state. To claim the situation of 100 years ago as having any significance today is lunacy - that unfortunately some Greek nationalists do engage in - being a nationalist yourself you know the mentality.


and may explain why Greece is giving out passports and pensions in southern Albania to Vlachs and many Albanians as well.

Seriously, get over your phobias. The last thing the average Greek wants is to add more (unfriendly and ready to cause trouble) Albanians to the Greek state, especially as citizens as would be the case if the border were to move further north. And even if the greek government were to be taken over by irredentist fanatics there are not enough Greeks in Southern Albania to give them the leverage needed.

If Greece is so stupid to pay fanatical Albanian and Romanian nationalists pensions thinking that would make them into Greeks why are you not laughing all the way to the bank? :rolleyes: Do you seriously think that Albanian nationalism is so weak? If beyond the Greek speaking minority there are still a few people that like their forefathers 100 years ago consider themselves Greek despite having Albanian or Vlach as their mother tongue who are you to forbid them from feeling that way? If I don't have a problem reading about Greek speakers in Tirana (from families that moved north during the communist era) that now feel only as Albanians (having Greek-speaking descent) what is your problem? Can't you accept that ethnicity and nationality are not necessarily aligned?


Maybe his heart is in the right from your perspective but bashing others with invented tales or convenient omissions, does not help the relations. They are other people and nations beside you.

The main aim of his article was to protect the national identification of Arvanites with the Greek nation. And in that his heart is in the right place despite some of his argumentation being flawed.

I just re-read your post again: Actually it is Greeks that say that the at least half of the Albanians are Greeks (thus the attempts to hellenize,) so get that straight.

You're kidding right? The average Greek these days has become so suspicious of Albanians claiming to be "NorthEpirotans" to get the "homogenis" card that they have started calling "Albanians" even people that are recognized to be part of the Greek minority by the Albanian state itself. It's actually infuriating to see kids that were thrown stones at in Albania for being Greek to be cursed at as "VromoAlvane" by people in Greece. Of course there are your Greek equivalents that based on reports from almost 100 years ago or more would claim all Orthodox Tosks as Greeks - just like your ilk claim all Arvanites (Southern Greece, Epirus and Thrace) as Albanians. You deserve each other. :p


I am extremely happy to be Albanian, and don't wish to be your "brother," especially not yours personally.

I'm especially glad to hear that. In that case lay your filthy hands off the Arvanites and wash your mouth next time you speak of us. Gkeke? :mad:


If you're hinting that we're poor or not as formally educated, I just want to remind you that things do change, and finally we're getting some international embrace. Greeks left Greece too until relatively recently.

I'd suggest you stop fighting windmills; my Albanian neighbours that are both poor and not very educated are extremely nice people, hard working, decent and deserving much better than what currently life has given them. And if they want to settle in Greece permanently instead of being troublemakers like your ilk, they would actually contribute to the place and their children would get both a university education (interestingly enough for free, same as for the children of Greek citizens) as well as be able to get out of poverty. And I will be most happy for them. It's the nationalist vermin like you that have no place among us.

I've wasted far too much time on your excrement. Feel free to produce some more crap without my further input, it's all you're good for.

[Draco]

As for Arvanites being of Albanian descent: I think it's much more established than the average Greek's connection to ancient Greece, but we've gone through those threads and many on the Greek side don't want to admit (and that's OK.)
The Arvanites can only be seen to be of Albanian descent if we retrospectively apply that label to their ancestors even though they never identified with it. Today's Greek Arvanites represent what today's Albanians were like before Islamic influences and foreign propaganda set in, I think it makes more sense to say that the Albanians are of Arvanite descent.

[Grace]

The Arvanites can only be seen to be of Albanian descent if we retrospectively apply that label to their ancestors even though they never identified with it. Today's Greek Arvanites represent what today's Albanians were like before Islamic influences and foreign propaganda set in, I think it makes more sense to say that the Albanians are of Arvanite descent.



Really? So today's Albanians are "Islamists" now? I find it ironic that our language and traditions survived so long without ever being written anywhere. Through 500 years of Turkish rule, the real law North was the Code of Lek Dukagjini (preceeds the Turks by centuries), and still is in many areas. Other than (empty) mosques, a few words here and there and Turkish coffee I don't know what you're talking about. We have Italian, Greek and English words as well. Turkish coffee, IIRC, is used in Greece as well.

It's even funnier when you consider that every region in Albania has their own mini-culture, along with songs and costumes. When phillohellenes came to Greece in 1800's instead of toga wearing Greeks they found Greek men wearing Albanian dresses and women dressed as Turks. Some of our clothes and songs were apparently good enough to be adopted by others as their "traditional"

Arvanites, like the Arberesh were at one point, frozen in time yes, but it has zero to do with them being Greek. The Arberesh still earn Albanian, sing and dress the same dresses they had back then. Arvanites, "for a reason or another," (we really know why) lost it.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=arberesh&search_type=&aq=f
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Pianalbanesi.jpg


By André Gerolymatos" In The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era" Page 90

"... most philhellenes who arrived in Greece after 1821, whether they were in search of toga-clad Greeks discussing philosophy in the ancient marketplace or simply the spoils of war, were disappointed. .As Col. Leicester Stanhope
observed, "All came expecting to find die Peloponnese filled with Plutarch's men and all returned thinking the inhabitants of Newgare more moral."" European aristocrats, flaunting their facility with ancient Greek, failed
to elicit any coherent response from the local inhabitants. The Greeks not only did not measure up to their ancestors in the eyes of the Europeans, but also displayed singular Balkan and Turkish habits. Indeed, they appeared to lack any of the graces associated with classical Athens, as it was preached to young aristocrats in European schools. Even in the manner of their dress, the Greeks reflected the orientalism of the Ottomans.

Greek fashion in the nineteenth century saw men dressed in the Albanian kilt while women followed the Muslim tradition of covering themselves up, including the face and eyes. To the dismay of the Europeans, the Greeks were also marked by other negative characteristics inherited from the Levant, such as the nasty habit of misplacing the truth, at least as truth was understood by Europeans. Rumilh Jenkins has described the Greek notion of verracitv as observed truth versus "ethnic" truth..."

http://www.balkanium.com/gallery/d/221-2/Albanian+in+Cairo.jpg
Albanian in Egypt (probably a 'Muslim' as part of the army that took over Egypt very early 1800's)

http://sdsnews.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/foto-1.jpg
Women, North Albania.

Don't mix neo-Hellenism with what it was. And we know that the Greek church was a Turk collaborator and the Greeks run the Ottoman empire, the Sultan trusted them more than the Muslims to sun his affairs (trade, diplomatic etc)

What foreign propaganda are you talking about? We knew that Souli and Arvanites were Albanians from a long time ago. Our National poet, Naim Frasheri called Greeks "Te Pa Bese" (without honor; back stabbers) for trying (and having plenty of success) to dismember Albania along with Serbs when Albanians helped Greece get their independence.

Using your logic, since Albania was a state only in 1912, no Albanians existed. Funny how Skenderbeg is considered Albanian and so are the the many Viziers and Pashas (Sinan Pasha, the worst of the worst, no less) long before "Albania" was recognized.

I see many Greek nationalists trying to invent different classes like Vorio-Epiriote, and use semantics to come around the fact that many of your heroes are Albanian. It's a waste of time. The world is no longer a like it was 50 years ago, it's wide open and scholars ('traitors') do tend to ignore blind nationalism.

[Orphic_Hymn]

When phillohellenes came to Greece in 1800's instead of toga wearing Greeks they found Greek men wearing Albanian dresses and women dressed as Turks. Some of our clothes and songs were apparently good enough to be adopted by others as their "traditional"
The so-called philhellenes also expected to hear Homeric Hellenic and couldn't conceive that the language had evolved and received foreign influence like all other languages, especially since we're comparing languages with a time gap of some 3000yrs.

But you again try to raise the foustanella issue when there's already a topic which you seem to avoid and we've already clarified that its the descendant of the ancient Tunic and Tonga well depicted in oh, so many Byzantine icons.. So unless all Byzantine icons are depictions of Albanians (who didn't exist at the time) you have a huge issue to deal with.




By André Gerolymatos" In The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era" Page 90

"... most philhellenes who arrived in Greece after 1821, whether they were in search of toga-clad Greeks discussing philosophy in the ancient marketplace or simply the spoils of war, were disappointed. .As Col. Leicester Stanhope
observed, "All came expecting to find die Peloponnese filled with Plutarch's men and all returned thinking the inhabitants of Newgare more moral."" European aristocrats, flaunting their facility with ancient Greek, failed
to elicit any coherent response from the local inhabitants. The Greeks not only did not measure up to their ancestors in the eyes of the Europeans, but also displayed singular Balkan and Turkish habits. Indeed, they appeared to lack any of the graces associated with classical Athens, as it was preached to young aristocrats in European schools. Even in the manner of their dress, the Greeks reflected the orientalism of the Ottomans.

Greek fashion in the nineteenth century saw men dressed in the Albanian kilt while women followed the Muslim tradition of covering themselves up, including the face and eyes. To the dismay of the Europeans, the Greeks were also marked by other negative characteristics inherited from the Levant, such as the nasty habit of misplacing the truth, at least as truth was understood by Europeans. Rumilh Jenkins has described the Greek notion of verracitv as observed truth versus "ethnic" truth..."

While its interesting that this quote only appears in Albanian propaganda sites and the name Rumilh Jenkins doesn't appear anywhere but in topix, where you either made this same post or copied it from..
Its even more interesting to note that Leicester Stanhope, the 5th Earl of Harrington in his " Greece, During Lord Byron's Residence in that Country, in 1823 and 1824" page 103 states: "the Primates are addicted to Turkish habits and principles of government" which obviously can't be considered anything remotely close to what this Gerolymmatos allegedly claims. So in the future do provide accurate sources and stop using this trash.


We knew that Souli and Arvanites were Albanians from a long time ago. Our National poet, Naim Frasheri called Greeks "Te Pa Bese" (without honor; back stabbers) for trying (and having plenty of success) to dismember Albania along with Serbs when Albanians helped Greece get their independence.

Yeah just like you knew that Kastriotis was your hero and only remembered him a couple of decades ago... as for your alleged assistance. Why is it that you young Albanian nationalists can't get around to accept the fact that the Arvanites, even if they were related to you (which they were not) openly denounced any connection to you as proven through their actions?

Tell me, what makes someone like you claim relation to a people or any single individual that spat on your country and slew your ancestors ?
A similar case would be any single one of us finding pride in the fact that Beyazid II was partly Hellenic in origin.. I mean think, why would we, what did he do for this country and its people? NOTHING.. so its obvious that only a desparate fool would follow your example.

And since I'm interested, in which poem does he make this statment ?


I see many Greek nationalists trying to invent different classes like Vorio-Epiriote, and use semantics to come around the fact that many of your heroes are Albanian. It's a waste of time. The world is no longer a like it was 50 years ago, it's wide open and scholars ('traitors') do tend to ignore blind nationalism.

True the world indeed isn't what it was hence why pseudo-scholars, revisionists driven by some nationalistic government's needs, invent bed-time stories for the illiterate.
Its obvious that you are one of these illiterates in desparate need of a proud past to claim hence why you ridiculously attempt to reject the existance of the Voreio-Epirotes, reject the existance of a Hellenic people in the lands in question, reject any connection of them to the Arvanites, Souliotes or even to Hellas..
Yeah claiming they're paid agents is far easier and of course more convenient.

[Grace]

You should cut down on dirty words and anger.
Somehow I doubt that your compatriots will leave anytime soon. If they do godspeed to them. I have nothing against those hard-working souls that are willing to work peacefully in Greece or even join the Greek nation in time but there's far too many of your ilk (and by that I mean ideology) for comfort. Some of them think they already own the place.


Don't worry, they pose no threats to you. Once they get entrenched enough they might ask for Albanian to become an official language, similar to those few Greeks (and many self-proclaimed ones) in Albania are asking and that's about it.
http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=121980&NrIssue=741&NrSection
If it's fair for the Greeks, it is for the Albanians too.

Thanks for the OK your intellectual highness. :p As far as I am concerned it is reasonable to claim that Arvanites and modern day Tosk Albanians share a common ancestry but that is not exactly what you mean by "Arvanites being of Albanian descent" now is it? ;)


All people share a common ancestry if you go back enough. The Arvanites and Albanians are much closer than that. You would not know a Tosk vs Gheg today. Many "Tosks" were catholic from the North that choose orthodoxy vs Islam when they escaped from the north (the Sultan had bought off your church so orthodoxy was not seen as a threat.) The Arbereshe that left from 'Morea' judging by their language and costumes are Northern.

Himariotes for example come Kruja, Mirdita and Mati. Albanian Tosks seem a bit more palatable to you. Tosks are more Greek than Albanian, right? Or lost Greeks, "needing liberation" but all Greeks from all regions are one. It's funny how you blind nationalists jump from branch to branch to avoid admitting the truth. You know that the North resisted the Turks much more, right? Entire areas like Malesia or Mirdita were out of limits, only in 1912 did the Turks really try...and lost.


One has to separate past history from the current state of affairs:
It is established (by many contemporary reports) that as far as Elbasan many if not most Orthodox Albanians (even more so in the case of Vlachs) claimed themselves to be Greek up to some point late in the 19th century. And that despite using Greek only in church and school etc.. In fact, the renowned Gustav Weigand was reportedly extremely frustrated at his failure to convince the Orthodox Albanians of Elbasan to switch to Albanian-speaking churches and schools and stop sending their kids to Athens for higher studies. Of course that is not anything unusual as national identity is a political and not a primordial social construct. And the modern Greek nation, as an evolution of the Rum milliet, naturally considered the flock of the Patriarch in Constantinople (and not all Orthodox) as part of its unclaimed brotherhood. That was the case then - before the emergence of a competing national identity in Albanian nationalism (which unlike the Greek one centered on ethnic lineage). Albanian nationalism did have successes among the Albanian Orthodox in Albania proper (Fan Noli would have been the greatest failure ever otherwise) but even at the time of the creation of the modern Albanian state, many Orthodox Albanians (and Vlachs) joined the Greeks in their failed attempt to create an independent North Epirot state eventually to be joined to Greece. You can rave all you like about how they were brainwashed etc. but they joined a different national cause willingly.


Many. Sure. In Mirdita too they tried to create a "Republic" thanks to Serb incitement and money. I think you're talking about Albanian orthodox being part of Greece, as in the Byzantine Empire. Is that what you call a Greek? And yes, we know of the Greek Church excomunicating anyone who spoke Albanian as late as 1907, and the Church has a lot of influence over its flock. You, the Serbs and Turks were all working together.

Why didn't you take over Romania, and Bulgaria since they are orthodox too? Or why didn't you help /push to create an Autcephalous Church for Albanians earlier instead of trying to take over half of the territory (again!)? You are /were interested in religion or land? Like vultures, you saw Albania as weak and tried to get even more land, with the religion excuse.


Seriously, get over your phobias. The last thing the average Greek wants is to add more (unfriendly and ready to cause trouble) Albanians to the Greek state, especially as citizens as would be the case if the border were to move further north. And even if the Greek government were to be taken over by irredentist fanatics there are not enough Greeks in Southern Albania to give them the leverage needed.

Every time you could, you occupied it and did everything possible to have it joined to you. I have no phobias now, and not because you have changed, the situation has changed. Albanians are 7 million in the Balkans alone and on the map now. It isn't as easy. Plus, the time for wars has passed.


If Greece is so stupid to pay fanatical Albanian and Romanian nationalists pensions thinking that would make them into Greeks why are you not laughing all the way to the bank? :rolleyes: Do you seriously think that Albanian nationalism is so weak? If beyond the Greek speaking minority there are still a few people that like their forefathers 100 years ago consider themselves Greek despite having Albanian or Vlach as their mother tongue who are you to forbid them from feeling that way? If I don't have a problem reading about Greek speakers in Tirana (from families that moved north during the communist era) that now feel only as Albanians (having Greek-speaking descent) what is your problem? Can't you accept that ethnicity and nationality are not necessarily aligned?


Albanian nationalism is not weak at all, thank god. And yes, Greeks are paying Vlachs and many self-proclaimed Greeks. You will not get the region but to hope to have a say in the state of affairs because of "your citizens."

The main aim of his article was to protect the national identification of Arvanites with the Greek nation. And in that his heart is in the right place despite some of his argumentation being flawed.

The main aim of his article was to protect the national identification of Arvanites with the Greek nation by slamming Albanians, the preffered Greek way. Nice try and be prepared for the backlash, as people find the truth. The truth is out there, it no longer belongs to the Church or 2-3 wise men.

You're kidding right? The average Greek these days has become so suspicious of Albanians claiming to be "NorthEpirotans" to get the "homogenis" card that they have started calling "Albanians" even people that are recognized to be part of the Greek minority by the Albanian state itself. It's actually infuriating to see kids that were thrown stones at in Albania for being Greek to be cursed at as "VromoAlvane" by people in Greece. Of course there are your Greek equivalents that based on reports from almost 100 years ago or more would claim all Orthodox Tosks as Greeks - just like your ilk claim all Arvanites (Southern Greece, Epirus and Thrace) as Albanians. You deserve each other. :p

I don't claim anything, and definitely not the territory where Arvanites live today. When you are going all that mess with FYROM over Alexander the Great, why shouldn't Albanians wonder about Arvanites? You love to mentions the "bad Albanians," why not remind you of the 'good' ones?

I'm especially glad to hear that. In that case lay your filthy hands off the Arvanites and wash your mouth next time you speak of us. Gkeke? :mad:


hehe. You an Arvanite? Sorry to break the news. You should really learn the language too, you know, the Albanian one. YouTube - Mësimët Arbëreshë - Kush Jam U? The Arberesh still speak it after 500 years and didn't have to give up their religion.
The truth belongs to your nieces and nephews that are searching the internet for "the truth." Their definition of "Greek" may differ from yours. It seems that for many nationalists "Greece" is the classic greece, Byzantine empire, who "feels Greek," and who "speaks Greek" to boot. Very fluid, and definitely it serves Greek national interests.

[Grace]

The so-called philhellenes also expected to hear Homeric Hellenic and couldn't conceive that the language had evolved and received foreign influence like all other languages, especially since we're comparing languages with a time gap of some 3000yrs.

But you again try to raise the foustanella issue when there's already a topic which you seem to avoid and we've already clarified that its the descendant of the ancient Tunic and Tonga well depicted in oh, so many Byzantine icons.. So unless all Byzantine icons are depictions of Albanians (who didn't exist at the time) you have a huge issue to deal with.

Language is one thing, habits are another, especially when you claim that Greeks remained pure, while Albanians became "Turks." On fustanella, modern scholars with no beef, disagree with you. I haven't updated because I can't keep up, but I will soon. Here's a hint: search for Spiridon Loues and they controversy he caused when he wore it in 1896 Olympics

"Thought originally to have been a southern Albanian outfit worn by men of the Tosk ethnicity and introduced into more Greek territories during the Ottoman occupation of previous centuries, the “clean petticoat” of the foustanéla ensemble was a term of reproach used by brigands well before laograf¤a (laographía, folklore) and disuse made it the national costume of Greece and consequently made light of variations based on region, time period, class or ethnicity." (From: "Spiridon Loues, the Modern Foustanéla, and the Symbolic Power of Pallikariá at the 1896 Olympic Games" by James P. Verinis (Muse)

Your attempt is hillarious: Greeks 3000 years ago wore something different from pants, thus fustanella must be Greek, but you needed to be reminded of your culture by Albanians (oops, I mean Tosk Albanians that are 'really Greeks,' no Albanian could possibly be any good). But see you in that thread soon, and take a look at Scottish dress.

http://www.your-kilt.com/images/LonePiper.jpg

I laughed when someone said that Albanian polyphonic music, now gladly adopted by Greeks as "traditional Greek", came from Dorian Greeks. You really have a long memory of you culture, we're glad we sparked that in you.

[/QUOTE]

While its interesting that this quote only appears in Albanian propaganda sites and the name Rumilh Jenkins doesn't appear anywhere but in topix, where you either made this same post or copied it from..
Its even more interesting to note that Leicester Stanhope, the 5th Earl of Harrington in his " Greece, During Lord Byron's Residence in that Country, in 1823 and 1824" page 103 states: "the Primates are addicted to Turkish habits and principles of government" which obviously can't be considered anything remotely close to what this Gerolymmatos allegedly claims. So in the future do provide accurate sources and stop using this trash.


Omnic,
deliberately lying is not my style. I maybe 120% wrong, but not on purpose. Search for a sentence in Google books. http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg8M9E4-94C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=%22most+philhellenes+who+arrived+in+Greece+afte r+1821%22&source=web&ots=t2Hsyj36KH&sig=LxatraboS4VBq8SVEfwd61cV7K0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result maybe someone can take a snapshot and post it.


Yeah just like you knew that Kastriotis was your hero and only remembered him a couple of decades ago... as for your alleged assistance. Why is it that you young Albanian nationalists can't get around to accept the fact that the Arvanites, even if they were related to you (which they were not) openly denounced any connection to you as proven through their actions?

Do not go there, as you will lose. Thanks to neo-hellenization being anything but Greek is a dirty word. With the media and Greek nationalists taking every chance to make Albanians into monsters, what do you expect? They have to prove their Greekness after all. See the Arberesh where no one penalized them for learning Albanian. YouTube - Arbëresh Costumes & Spoken Arbërisht
But fear not, the new generation is coming to terms with it, they look at the world trough an objective lense, not the Greek nationalists one where "if you want to be good you cannot be an Albanian."


Tell me, what makes someone like you claim relation to a people or any single individual that spat on your country and slew your ancestors ?
A similar case would be any single one of us finding pride in the fact that Beyazid II was partly Hellenic in origin.. I mean think, why would we, what did he do for this country and its people? NOTHING.. so its obvious that only a desparate fool would follow your example.

The fact that doesn't anything for the country, doesn't mean they're not Albanians, or German for that matter. Good or bad deeds don't change anything.

What ancestors? if you are hinting that Albanians fought Albanians, so what?
Do you think that all Greeks were behind the revolution or that all Albanians fought for the Turks were all muslims?? You also seem to think that "Muslim = Turk lover" Haha! Search for Isa Boletini and Azem Galica for starters and phanariotes and Greek orthodox Church (didn't the Patriarch sit on the Sultan's divan while Phanariotes got rich and gave their daughters as wives to the Turk officals?) How nice of you to retroactively write history with "Greeks good, Albanians bad."

Albanians are clannish, blood first. There was no loyalty to the faith, just the blood and privilege for those that owned the lands.

And just to rain on your parade: The Suli, 'your' heroes fought with Ali Pasha as well and the Christians asked the Turks for protections against them. They were BANDITS, extortionists to be exact. How's that?



And since I'm interested, in which poem does he make this statment ?

I'll search and post it. I know I read it.




True the world indeed isn't what it was hence why pseudo-scholars, revisionists driven by some nationalistic government's needs, invent bed-time stories for the illiterate.
Its obvious that you are one of these illiterates in desparate need of a proud past to claim hence why you ridiculously attempt to reject the existance of the Voreio-Epirotes, reject the existance of a Hellenic people in the lands in question, reject any connection of them to the Arvanites, Souliotes or even to Hellas..
Yeah claiming they're paid agents is far easier and of course more convenient.

No one is denying that they are Greeks in Albania: they have schools and churches in Greek, too bad 90% of them are in Greece, just the old and very young people are left. And yes, they are paid phony Greeks as well. It's a fact, especially in Himara. They want to keep the entire shore for themselves there so they claim "minority status" hoping Albanian government caves in. Many Greeks are very happy to stir trouble through them.

By the way, any minorities in Greece, other than the Treaty of Loussane ones?

[Orphic_Hymn]

Some of them think they already own the place.

Something I witnessed myself while on vacation and depicts this mentality accurately..

Whosever travelled by ship to the Aegean islands knows the usual chaos that breaks loose, half of the passengers crowded for a coffee the other half in their cabins and seats and a large portion of them taking advantage of the absence of the first and relaxing in the seats hoping that they won't come bother them and send them to the deck (which is what they originally paid for) or some floor on a sleeping bag...

Well what struck me was a group of Albanians, a family of 4, (father, mother in their early 40's, son of approx. 10yrs of age and a daughter of approx. 14) and a couple give or take approx. 30 each...
All of them had bought tickets for the deck (cheaper) and had sat in the paid numbered seats. But as I said this wasn't the suprise since its common practice.. what was the suprise was that when the French and British tourists (at the time all women) that had paid for the seats arrived after their coffee and rightfully claimed them the reaction was a NO... I won't get up!!!

I mean WTF?!? You cheap bastards, you didn't want to pay the extra 7 euros for an inside seat yet have the audacity to deny me my right to sit in the seat I paid for!?!?!?!

While the discussion kept going on, with the Albanians acting as if they couldn't understand what the French and British women were saying (which is probably true but the hand language and the flashing of the tickets gave them more than a simple hint) the men arrived... this is where is gets interesting..

After a short explaining from their female companions the men decided to take matters into their own hands and demanded that the seats are handed over to the rightfull owners.. firstly through discussion (with the Albanians playing dumb) and then by calling in the steward.. At least some 70 people gazed as they heard these Albanians audaciously claim that they would only get up IF the steward found them some other seats !!! and literally burst into laughter when they witnessed them attacking the French guy for speaking a bit of broken Hellenic in his efforts to communicate with the steward and find some kind of solution.. not to mention that both Brits and French were damning immigration policies.

But I have to tell you guys that you haven't seen anything untill you've seen an Albanian screaming:
WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? THIS IS HELLAS AND WE DEMAND RESPECT!!! WHERE DO YOU GET OFF TALKING TO US IN SOME FOREIGN TONGUE AND NOT IN THE LANGUAGE OF THIS COUNTRY !!!

Anyway, after some 4 hours and another 5 similar events in which they had sat in someone else's seat denying to get up.. they finally gathered their sh!t and hit the outdoor deck.. and it was about time, since after those whiskeys I was getting drowsy and needed some shut-eye.


ps: a bit of slapping around took place and these 2 Albanians were quite lucky that the whole lot of passengers didn't get into it cause we were all highly annoyed.

[Grace]

http://www.forumishqiptar.net/archive/index.php/t-936.html
I'll translated a bit, and some of the names may seem familiar to you. It says that Albanians put the foundation of Greece, only to be back stabbed. He also beleives that Pirro (Phyrros) was Albanian, and even mentions Alexander the Great as well. Personally, I think it's crazy to go 2000-2500 years back since no one knows the bloodlines, but apaprently it isn't "Enver Hoxha propaganda".

I think it was written after Albanian inhabited lands were devoured in 1912 as Albanians were exhausted by Turks, Greeks and Serbs. BTW, he was a "Muslim" who with his brother rallied Albanians against Turks, Greeks and Serbs. This is titled "Parajsa" (heaven)

"...Shqipëria ishte zonjë (Albania was once a lady)
E kishte të madhe pronjë, (had many lands)
Shqipëria kurdoherë (Albania all the time)
Ka nxjerrë trima të vlerë, (has raised worthy brave men )
Mehmet Alin', Ibrahimnë, (names of some
Gjikënë, Gjolekë trimnë, (more names)
Rrapon e Ali Pashanë,
Silahdarë e Shkodranë
E shumë njerës të tjerë,
Si këta dhe më të ndjerë.

Ishte vash' e Shqipërisë
Ajo zonj' e urtësisë,
Dora Distra nga Përmeti,
Qe'ish në diturit si deti.
Gjithë gravet u ka dhënë
Nder dhe mëmëdheut tënë.

E kush e bëri Morenë? (who made Morea)
Gjithë shqipëtarë qenë. (All Albanians were)
S'ish shqipëtar Marko Suli? (Wan't Marko Suli (Botsaris for you) an Albanian?)
Xhavella e Miauli? (Zdavellas (?) and ..
Bubulina e Kanari? (self explained, Kanari I have no clue)
Shqipëtar bir shqipëtari. (Albanian and son of Albanians--like saying generation after generation Albanian)
Me armët të Shqipërisë (with the guns of Albania)
Iu hoth themeli Greqisë, (Greece's foundations were set)

Po grekërët e pabesë, (but Greeks, the backstabbers)
Që iu bënë zot Moresë, (that took (ownership of) Morea)
S'e duanë shqipëtarë, (don't like Albanians)
Kërkojnë t'i bëjnë varrë! (they seek to put them in coffins)
Po kush bën në këtë jetë (but who does such thing in this life)
Varr' e shokut, bije vetë. (you'll fall in the hole you opened for your friend)

Nukë trëmbet shqipëtari (the Albanian does not tremble)
Nga greku e nga bullgari, (from the Greek nor Bulgars)
Nga Mal'i Zi, nga Sërbia (from Montenegro or Serbs)
Nukë trëmbet Shqipëria. (Albania does not tremble)

S'trëmbet kurrë shqipëtari, (here he goes through history and says that we'll be back, sort of down, but not out)Dhe sot ësht' ajy i pari,
Bota gjith' e kanë parë
Në luftëra shqipëtarë,
Plevna, Shipka s'u harua,
Koha shumë s'u mërgua.
Neve muntmë venetjanët
Dhe barbarët e romanët,
Turqinë edhe Persinë,
Afrikënë e Hindinë."


---
I vranë me të pabesë, (they were killed by betrayal)
Pas zakonit të Moresë. (after the (greek) Morea traditions)


Omnic,
if you read you'll find that Albanians were generally seen as the best fighters during Ottoman times, no matter who the fought for or against. We probably got it from the Spartans ;) if you don't trust me, read the André Gerolymatos' book, Byron http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/jgalt/bl-jgalt-byron-14.htm
Of the inhabitants of Albania—the Arnaouts or Albanese—Lord Byron says they reminded him strongly of the Highlanders of Scotland, whom they undoubtedly resemble in dress, figure, and manner of living. “The very mountains seemed Caledonian with a kinder climate. The kilt, though white, the spare active form, their dialect, Celtic in its sound, and their hardy habits, all carried me back to Morven. No nation are so detested and dreaded by their neighbours as the Albanese; the Greeks hardly regard them as Christians, or the Turks as Moslems, and in fact they are a mixture of both, and sometimes neither.

Their habits are predatory: all are armed, and the red-shawled Arnaouts, the Montenegrins, Chimeriotes, and Gedges, are treacherous; the others differ somewhat in garb, and essentially in character. As far as my own experience goes, I can speak favourably. I was attended by two, an infidel and a Mussulman, to Constantinople and every other part of Turkey which came within my observations, and men more faithful in peril and indefatigable in service are nowhere to be found.


or start here:

EUROPE'S "AUTONOMOUS ALBANIA" ABSURD, SAYS PROF. HART; Part Barbarian, the Albanian Threatens to Block All Plans for Settling the Balkans -- Land Has Never Been Reduced to Order -- The Men Are Used to Being Armed and Untaxed.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9903E4DB133FE633A2575AC1A9669D94 6296D6CF

[Orphic_Hymn]

Language is one thing, habits are another, especially when you claim that Greeks remained pure, while Albanians became "Turks." On fustanella, modern scholars with no beef, disagree with you. I haven't updated because I can't keep up, but I will soon. Here's a hint: search for Spiridon Loues and they controversy he caused when he wore it in 1896 Olympics
Controversy ?
This is what the 3rd, 5th,50th time you're making the same claim with nothing to support this but your own word on it.. and we've all seen how credible that is. S.Louis was always depicted with the foustanella and why on earth would his appearance with one cause some form of controversy when we know that it was officially recognized as our national costume since our liberation ?


Your attempt is hillarious: Greeks 3000 years ago wore something different from pants, thus fustanella must be Greek, but you needed to be reminded of your culture by Albanians (oops, I mean Tosk Albanians that are 'really Greeks,' no Albanian could possibly be any good). But see you in that thread soon, and take a look at Scottish dress.

If you look through the thread in question you'll find kilts dated back to Mycenean and Minoan times and either you like it or not, it is titled the ancestor of the Tunic and Tonga.

I laughed when someone said that Albanian polyphonic music, now gladly adopted by Greeks as "traditional Greek", came from Dorian Greeks. You really have a long memory of you culture, we're glad we sparked that in you.

Not some authority in music although have played my share of instruments.. but as far as I know, polyphonic music isn't something uncommon among Europeans..
In either way, yeah a much longer one than you do.. and guess what, its also written.



Omnic,
deliberately lying is not my style. I maybe 120% wrong, but not on purpose. Search for a sentence in Google books. http://books.google.com/books?id=vpg8M9E4-94C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=%22most+philhellenes+who+arrived+in+Greece+afte r+1821%22&source=web&ots=t2Hsyj36KH&sig=LxatraboS4VBq8SVEfwd61cV7K0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result maybe someone can take a snapshot and post it.
I hope that the distortion of my screen name wasn't intentional, but judging from your previous celebrations of stupidity, I bet this is another insult in your own grunt, guized as a spelling mistake.

As for Gerolymmatos.. the fact of the matter is that Leicester Stanhope's book which is available in google books, does anything but support the alleged claim.. so either he's presenting a distorted version of what was noted or you (meaning the individual that originally spread this quote) are.


Do not go there, as you will lose. Thanks to neo-hellenization being anything but Greek is a dirty word. With the media and Greek nationalists taking every chance to make Albanians into monsters, what do you expect? They have to prove their Greekness after all. See the Arberesh where no one penalized them for learning Albanian. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRP9bO5rh_I&feature=related
But fear not, the new generation is coming to terms with it, they look at the world trough an objective lense, not the Greek nationalists one where "if you want to be good you cannot be an Albanian."

Man you live in a deluted little world of your own in which everyone is out to get the poor old Albanians.
You speak of Albanians being presented as monsters.. do you actually know the reality of Albanians in Hellas or are you simply parroting what some inferiority complexed fool that thought he'd become a major company chairman even though he has an elementary school education.. is telling you?

Of course not all Albanians as viewed upon as thieves (monsters isn't even used as a description).. but you have to keep in mind that there is a large part of your compatriots that does anything to deserve such a title and the rest do nothing about them.. either because they're too afraid or simply because they consider them heroes just like your "heroi kurbetit" Flamur Pisli, who's sung about, poems written in his honor... I don't know if you've even made his day of death some national holiday but from what I've heard, wouldn't really be suprized if you have.
So think twice prior to throwing accusations.


The fact that doesn't anything for the country, doesn't mean they're not Albanians, or German for that matter. Good or bad deeds don't change anything.
So according to you one's ethnic conciousness isn't depicted through his/her actions ?


What ancestors? if you are hinting that Albanians fought Albanians, so what?
Do you think that all Greeks were behind the revolution or that all Albanians fought for the Turks were all muslims?? You also seem to think that "Muslim = Turk lover" Haha! Search for Isa Boletini and Azem Galica for starters and phanariotes and Greek orthodox Church (didn't the Patriarch sit on the Sultan's divan while Phanariotes got rich and gave their daughters as wives to the Turk officals?) How nice of you to retroactively write history with "Greeks good, Albanians bad."
What ancestors? Obviously those that identified themselves as Albanians in contrast to those which you continue to claim even though as we've already noted clarified that they were Hellenes, fighting for the liberties of Hellas.
Siding with Ali means nothing, simply because at the time they saw him as a lesser enemy which would assist them in getting rid of the Ottoman yoke.




No one is denying that they are Greeks in Albania: they have schools and churches in Greek, too bad 90% of them are in Greece, just the old and very young people are left. And yes, they are paid phony Greeks as well. It's a fact, especially in Himara. They want to keep the entire shore for themselves there so they claim "minority status" hoping Albanian government caves in. Many Greeks are very happy to stir trouble through them.
Then why constantly reject the fact of the existance of Voreio-Epirotes as seen oh, so many times and in your post just above in which you speak of inventions?

As for those few, actually a handfull in my book, many in yours that are exploiting our interest in our minority.. what can I say other than if true, it says volumes about your compatriots and their loyalties.

By the way, any minorities in Greece, other than the Treaty of Loussane ones?
No, why, do you know of anyone claiming a minority status ?

[Orphic_Hymn]

http://www.forumishqiptar.net/archive/index.php/t-936.html
I'll translated a bit, and some of the names may seem familiar to you. It says that Albanians put the foundation of Greece, only to be back stabbed. He also beleives that Pirro (Phyrros) was Albanian, and even mentions Alexander the Great as well. Personally, I think it's crazy to go 2000-2500 years back since no one knows the bloodlines, but apaprently it isn't "Enver Hoxha propaganda".

I think it was written after Albanian inhabited lands were devoured in 1912 as Albanians were exhausted by Turks, Greeks and Serbs. BTW, he was a "Muslim" who with his brother rallied Albanians against Turks, Greeks and Serbs. This is titled "Parajsa" (heaven)

Can't find a full translation but found it in Albanian, full title "Parajsa dhe fjala fluturake", written in 1894.

Omnic,
if you read you'll find that Albanians were generally seen as the best fighters during Ottoman times, no matter who the fought for or against. We probably got it from the Spartans ;) if you don't trust me, read the André Gerolymatos' book, Byron http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/jgalt/bl-jgalt-byron-14.htm
Oh, yeah... forgot you're Spartans also :clapping:
But what does being good fighters have to do with anything this thread is about.. is this your argument now.. "Albanians were good fighters so it was they that liberated you" ?

[Grace]

I'll answer the rest later.


What ancestors? Obviously those that identified themselves as Albanians in contrast to those which you continue to claim even though as we've already noted clarified that they were Hellenes, fighting for the liberties of Hellas.
Siding with Ali means nothing, simply because at the time they saw him as a lesser enemy which would assist them in getting rid of the Ottoman yoke.


Who said "I'm Albanian" when the Suli said "we're Greek"? No one. Just writers and historians called some "Turks", some "Latins" and some "Greeks." At times they also used the word Albanian. For many nationalist Greeks now, "Albanian = Muslim that fought against us," and that serves to demonize Albanians.

They are threads about this, or you can read Andrew's book, he is a Greek PHD, hardly an Albanian nationalist. By your standard they were Greeks, if Greek means a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, there was no Albanian national church back then, nor "Albania" for that matter. By blood they were ALBANIAN and we Albanians are happy that we helped. When you wear that foustanella, and do the yearly Suli dance honoring the "brave Greek women" that fought along side men, or honor the sailors of Hydra we know that their Albanian blood is in our veins as well in probably a million 'Greeks' plus 600,000 Albanian immigrants. Religion means nothing, plenty of Muslim Albanians have converted to get a job in Greece.

FYI, the Suli thing is no big deal in Albania, but we understand that you needed a rallying point /symbol of bravery: "All the Albanian women are brave, and are trained from their girlhood to use of firearms, and in the time of war, as there are no mules, they carry the provisions and ammunitions for their soldiers and go into the firing line to distribute them" (does this sound familiar???)
Taken from a 1911 NYT article titled ""ALBANIAN JOAN OF ARC.; Handsome Heroine Takes Father's Place and Vanquishes Turks."
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=4&res=9400E1DA1431E233A25752C2A9639C946096D6CF&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


http://home.online.no/~bmatos/artimages/ACFXMATdbqKh.jpg
Judging by her name, Tringa Smail Martini, (Smail might be short for Ismaili) she was probably a 'Muslim' too.

The same people that fought under the legendary Skanderbeg, that later never really accepted Turkish rule in Albania proper (religion is different from submission to us,) also was the driving force of the Greek liberation (along with the Russian, Brit and French navies.) We don't have statues of them in our country because they stayed with Greece, but we we're proud of them nevertheless.

And do not confuse "hellenes" with Greek Orthodox, they had no clue about Socrates nor Archimedes and the new Greece is based on religion.



Then why constantly reject the fact of the existance of Voreio-Epirotes as seen oh, so many times and in your post just above in which you speak of inventions?


Vorio Epirus means nothing in Albanian. For now, until we learn from others and throw them out as collaborators, they are some old Greeks in southern Albania. Maybe that region will become middle Albania one day ;) so we don't want to assign "North" or "South" just yet.

As for those few, actually a handfull in my book, many in yours that are exploiting our interest in our minority.. what can I say other than if true, it says volumes about your compatriots and their loyalties.

For every traitor you can find ten that want to k**l them. Once economy goes up they will suddenly shut up so enjoy it while you can :)

No, why, do you know of anyone claiming a minority status ?

that's a smart ass quote, but it's OK. Serbs laughed at us for a long time too.

Albania will be in EU within 10 years and the Cham properties are just sitting there, covered by grass and brushes, since you only have 300,000 people in the entire Janina region (150K in one city I think) and cannot even use the area properly. Right now the 25k Chams you threw out have become 200,000. No visas will be needed and EU has special courts for such things should you have problems with EU citizens.

"Diversity is our strength" will be your motto especially when Turkey joins EU as well ;) Get ready for Albanian schools, Catholic churches and Turkish mosques, just as Greeks enjoy those rights in Albania. "Vasillis Bollanos" kindly reminds us to do whatever he wants to "be good members of Europe," and I suppose a more civilized place like Greece will even go further.

[Victor]

Once economy goes up they will suddenly shut up so enjoy it while you can :)ANother pyramid scheme being planned?

You will experience some development but overall,your economy is up shits creek for decades.
Right now the 25k Chams you threw out have become 200,000.8 times growth in 60 years???:rolleyes:
Now I know youre a fool.

The "CHam" issue is dead.YOu can talk until your tongue falls out,but youll never get anything.

[Grace]

ANother pyramid scheme being planned?

You will experience some development but overall,your economy is up shits creek for decades..

We'll get tens of $billions in free EU cash like Greece did and borrow, what is it now, 120% of your GDP /$400 billion? ;).

Victor, we are a small country, the economy is growing 5-6% a year and tourism hasn't really started yet. We still have problem with electricity and roads (probably will be solved next year.) Even the Greeks got rich eventually so I don't see why Albanians will not.



8 times growth in 60 years???:rolleyes:
Now I know youre a fool.

The "CHam" issue is dead.YOu can talk until your tongue falls out,but youll never get anything.

Albanians have plenty of children, or at least did. It is not dead, Greece cannot have it both ways, and we're talking billions of dollars too, now.

We respect those few old people left from the Greek minority (Greece demands it especially through their stooges) http://www.vizionplus.tv/Lajm.aspx?%2023616 so they must play by the same rules. You should also open schools for the FYROM slavs like we did for Greeks, we know Slavs still exist. We also don't throw your minorities out and confiscate their property despite them supporting Greece against Albanian interests, you shouldn't either.

Here's a hint: Soon Greece will have absolutely no power over Albania at all, right now you use EU /NATO memberships in veiled threats. This will come back to haunt you as resentment builds, just as immigrants resent the fact that they have to take another name, change religion and are still be discriminated. It's not a good way to make friends.

I say that within 3-5 years, Albanians will open Albanian schools in Greece. Just watch, the dam will be broken and if you think they are forgetting their language this quick, think again, Arvanitika is still spoken (http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html) (albeit not in public for fear of not being 'Greek enough'). The internet will drown the Church /nationalists propaganda. For the record: the greatest help for Albanians is Joe DiGuardi. Late in life he found out that his family was a descendant of a Gjergj Kastrioti soldier, left in Italy to help guard a Naples principality:
The battle of Apulia in the southern part of the Italian Peninsula, near Naples, is of special significance to me and my family. In 1461, after Skenderbeg and his elite cavalry helped save the Kingdom of Naples from French domination, the future security of the Kingdom was assured when Gjergj Kastrioti decided to leave two thousand horsemen there, while he returned to Albania to continue to defend the Albanian people from Ottoman Turkish domination.

As an inducement for Skenderbeg to agree to what must have been a difficult decision for him, the King of Naples awarded the Albanian soldiers an area about forty miles east of Naples, including a high mountaintop village called Greci. Greci had been formed by Greek farmers and merchants in 535 AD and had since declined after most Greeks abandoned the area that they had controlled in the first millennium. Albanians changed the name of the village to “Katundi,” which is the name used today by the Albanian residents, even though the Italians still call it Greci. My father, Joseph, Sr. immigrated to America from Katundi in 1929 at the age of fifteen. His family is descended from one of Skenderbeg’s two thousand soldiers, and this is a great reminder that the seeds of Skenderbeg are still spreading across the oceans of the world today.
* Besa is derived from the ancient moral code of the Albanian people. http://blog.aacl.com/gjergj-kastrioti-%E2%80%9Cskenderbeg%E2%80%9D-by-joseph-j-dioguardi/

[Orphic_Hymn]

I'll answer the rest later.
Who said "I'm Albanian" when the Suli said "we're Greek"? No one. Just writers and historians called some "Turks", some "Latins" and some "Greeks." At times they also used the word Albanian. For many nationalist Greeks now, "Albanian = Muslim that fought against us," and that serves to demonize Albanians.
As I've already told you, that is your version.. then again we have their version, in which we find Kitsos Tzavelas in his letter to Ahmet Neprevistani, staing that "these lands are Hellenic"..

Or what about the letter of Alexandros Ypsilantis which clearly makes reference not only to a nation (that of Hellas) but also to their ancestors who you believe they ignored?

page 18 from the Memoirs of Christophoros Perraivos published 1836



http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/perraibos1.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/perraibos2.jpg

Underlined text:

... (he didn't dare openly state) matters of national interest, but only in part and towards the most important families did he confess the greater objective of the nation...


.....(the letter) inspired them with courage to confront the nation's sufferings.....

...... (letter's title) Gallant leaders of the Hellenic troops...

... enemies of faith and nation...

...(prove to the whole world) that you are indeed the descendants of the great heroes of Marathon and Thermopyles and that you, like they, scorn death.. the greatfull nation

-------------------




So why on earth would a letter that titled them something you claim they were not (I mean Hellenes) or even make reference to those you claim they knew nothing about (ancient Hellenes) inspire them to fight for the formation of a Hellas, when they, according to you, didn't acknowledge the existance of a Hellenic nation nor felt that they belonged to it ?
----------------------------

Same book, page 130
(describing the reasons they had uprised)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/perraibos3.jpg


Letter from the Suliotes to the Grand-General of Ioannina Mehmet Hursit Pasha (dated May 7 1822)

......... (don't believe those that tell your highness) that the Hellenes have revolted against the Sultan
------------------------

How bout explaining why they'd title themselves Hellenes (as already seen above the term wasn't used to describe religious beliefs)?

By blood they were ALBANIAN and we Albanians are happy that we helped. When you wear that foustanella, and do the yearly Suli dance honoring the "brave Greek women" that fought along side men, or honor the sailors of Hydra we know that their Albanian blood is in our veins as well in probably a million 'Greeks' plus 600,000 Albanian immigrants. Religion means nothing, plenty of Muslim Albanians have converted to get a job in Greece.
1.000.000 :clap2: (don't forget about the Spartans)
Yeah we already mentioned your values and loyalties or at least what some of your compatriots think of them..
Your problem is that you can't prove bloodlines, you can't omit their own actions, their own words which either you like it or not, clearly indicate that even if at some remote time in history they were even partly Albanian, these people had totally denounced any connection to Albanians to such extent that it didn't even exist in their minds as a remote memory.


FYI, the Suli thing is no big deal in Albania, but we understand that you needed a rallying point /symbol of bravery:
Seems like you're forgetting that Suliotes or not, the wanting for liberation had already existed hence the numerous uprisings all over the country... What I see is a desparate need to find some form of glorious past.. your "scholars" claiming that Thermopyles derives from "there more Pylle", Athens related to some "athana"... need I get into all the theories about Olympian Gods and the pathetic etymologies, how bout Homer's texts being written in Albanian... nah you get the point.



Taken from a 1911 NYT article titled ""ALBANIAN JOAN OF ARC.; Handsome Heroine Takes Father's Place and Vanquishes Turks."
Which proves what.. other than that you're again distorting events in your strife to build a history for yourself ?
What does this event have to do with Souli which is exactly what you're talking about???


A young girl, whose first name corresponds to that of the given name of the Maid of Orleans, is now being sung in the songs of the Montenegrin bards in the inns and coffee houses of Podgogritsa. When at the battle of Vranye last week her father, the hereditary commander of his clan, fell, she immediately stepped to his place and led the Martinais to victory against the Turks.



also was the driving force of the Greek liberation (along with the Russian, Brit and French navies.)
WTF? LOL
Foreign "assistance" didn't come untill the revolution was well under way..(I'm not talking about individuals but major assistance) and even then it can be questioned.. I'd suggest you read about the French sending Admiral Letellier to lead the Ottoman fleet, or about the dishonorary dispatchment of Admiral Codrington, for disobeying direct orders not to destroy it..etc.

We don't have statues of them in our country because they stayed with Greece, but we we're proud of them nevertheless.
You didn't have a statue of Skanderbeg untill a couple of decades ago, and just think, he's supposed to be your national hero, not someone that spat on you.

And do not confuse "hellenes" with Greek Orthodox, they had no clue about Socrates nor Archimedes and the new Greece is based on religion.
As proven above you simply don't know what you're talking about.



Vorio Epirus means nothing in Albanian. For now, until we learn from others and throw them out as collaborators, they are some old Greeks in southern Albania. Maybe that region will become middle Albania one day ;) so we don't want to assign "North" or "South" just yet.
I see you're a comedian..
Well if they collaborate with any nation that attempts to undermine the sovereignity of your own, I'm fully in support of it. So wait for an invasion.

For every traitor you can find ten that want to k**l them. Once economy goes up they will suddenly shut up so enjoy it while you can :)
I couldn't care less if there were thousands waiting in line.. we're talking about people who either you like it or not accurately depict the general Albanian mentality.. denounce their ethnicity for a $, denounce religion for a $... its in you, it has been throughout your history.. lackeys of the Ottomans, opened your legs to the Italians, sided with the Nazi, hell you even became them.. and all that for what? a $ !!!

that's a smart ass quote, but it's OK. Serbs laughed at us for a long time too.
Do you understand the difference between a minority and an immigrant population residing in any country untill the visa reaches its expiration date ?

Albania will be in EU within 10 years and the Cham properties are just sitting there, covered by grass and brushes, since you only have 300,000 people in the entire Janina region (150K in one city I think) and cannot even use the area properly. Right now the 25k Chams you threw out have become 200,000. No visas will be needed and EU has special courts for such things should you have problems with EU citizens.
This is new.. Albanians telling us how to tend to our properties.. man try to lower that 30% unemployment rate that's driving your population abroad and then start the wet-dreams about EU and becomming a major economic power.

"Diversity is our strength" will be your motto especially when Turkey joins EU as well ;) Get ready for Albanian schools, Catholic churches and Turkish mosques, just as Greeks enjoy those rights in Albania.
Again hoping for the Turks to come and save the day...
Wake up and see reality.. Catholic churches just like Islamic (Turkish is a nationality not a religion) mosques do exist and if you're prepared to pay for the teachers just like I do, have 'em why do you think that this celebration of stupidity would intimidate me ?

[kostas68]

And we know that the Greek church was a Turk collaborator and the Greeks run the Ottoman empire, the Sultan trusted them more than the Muslims to sun his affairs (trade, diplomatic etc)

The Greek church was a Turk collaborator?Maybe you can find a few Greek high-ranking clergies who favored the Ottoman rule,but if you compare their number with this of the Albanians who were Turk collaborators (both high-ranking officers and plain soldiers)....As for the Phanariotes,whom you imply with the phrase <the Greeks run the Ottoman empire, the Sultan trusted them more than the Muslims to sun his affairs (trade, diplomatic etc)>,don't forget that when the Ottomans conquered the Byzantine empire,they had serious lack of experienced dignitaries,diplomats e.t.c.Thus,they were obligated by the circumstances to maintain the Byzantine model of administration and the same persons for many years.The Ottomans were at that time interested only in military affairs and the conquering of new lands,not for the administration of these lands,that's why they left this job to the members of the old Byzantine aristocracy who did it for centuries before and after the Ottoman conquest.

Get ready for Albanian schools, Catholic churches and Turkish mosques, just as Greeks enjoy those rights in Albania. "Vasillis Bollanos" kindly reminds us to do whatever he wants to "be good members of Europe," and I suppose a more civilized place like Greece will even go further.
We have already Turkish mosques in Thrace and Catholic churches in the Cyclades islands,many of the inhabitants of those islands are Catholic.As for the Albanian schools for the immigrants,it depends on the ability of the Albanian state to finnance such a project.

[Morphesau]

Grace give it a break. This has been going on now for more then 7 years by the Albanians at least to my knowledge, I know that forum your originaly posted for us to see. Also still here you idiots persist with your little propagandas and you've acheived NOTHING.

Intelligence is the capacity to learn. Wisdom is what you do with what you have learned. What have you people learned apart from being slamed time after time. Enver Hoxia isn't alive anymore so it's cool spread your wings and LIVE freely now, go on.