Alexander's Sexuality

[Ptolemy]

So what do you think was Alexander's sexuality?? Since this is one of the endless debates on the history forums i thought to make a thread about it and post except our views and sources having to do with Alexander's sexuality.

[Ptolemy]

One first expert view is the one by Dr. Jeanne Reames-Zimmerman found in the following link.

http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42

[Tsontos]

You find me one single ancient (contemporary) source which in anyway refers to him having sexual relationship with a man and I will beleive he was bi-sexual. If such a relationship existed it would have been mentioned in one of the hundreds of ancient sources, biographers etc.

not one sinle contemporary quote, only modern conjecture with an agenda.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I'm with Takis here. I think he hit it.

[Ptolemy]

Ok i will start a list of quotes from ancient sources about Alexander's sexuality in reference to his wifes and mistresses along with controversial quotes about Bagoas and Hephaestion.

Firstly, quotes about Barsine, daughter of Artabazus.

As he afterwards contemplated the wealth and display of Darius, he was seized with admiration of such magnificence. Hence it was that he first began to indulge in luxurious and splendid banquets, and fell in love with his captive Barsine for her beauty, by whom he had afterwards a son that he called Hercules.

[Justin 9.10]



At any rate Alexander, so it seems, thought it more worthy of a king to subdue his own passions than to conquer his enemies, and so he never came near these women, nor did he associate with any other before his marriage, with the exception only of Barsine. This woman, the widow of Memnon, the Greek mercenary commander, was captured at Damascus. She had received a Greek education, was of a gentle disposition, and could claim royal descent, since her father was Artabazus who had married one of the Persian king’s daughters. These qualities made Alexander the more willing – he was encouraged by Parmenio, so Aristobulus tells us – to form an attachment to a woman of such beauty and noble lineage.

[Plutarch, Alexander]


He also held weddings at Susa for himself and for the Companions; he himself married Darius’ eldest daughter Barsine, and, as Aristobulus says, another wife as well, Parysatis, the youngest daughter of Ochus. He had already taken to wife Roxane, the daughter of Oxyartes the Bactrian. To Hephaestion he gave Drypetis, another daughter of Darius, sister to his own wife (for he desired Hephaestion’s children to be cousins of his own); to Craterus, Amastrine daughter of Oxyatres, Darius’ brother; to Perdiccas, a daughter of Atropates, satrap of Media; to Ptolemy the bodyguard and Eumenes the royal secretary, the daughters of Artabazus, Artacama and Artonis respectively ; to Nearchus the daughter of Barsine and Mentor; to Seleucus the daughter of Spitamenes the Bactrian, and similarly to the other Companions the noblest daughters of Persians and Medes, numbering about eighty.

[Arrian 8.4.4- 8.4.8]

Note here we arent talking the Barsine, widow of Memnon. But Barsine, elsewhere found as Stateira.


For Alexander's first mistress in Asia, by whom he had his son Hercules, was Barsine the daughter of Artabazus; and in the distribution of the Persian ladies amongst his captains, Alexander gave Apame, one of his sisters, to Ptolemy, and another, also called Barsine, to Eumenes.

[Plutarch, Eumenes]

According to Andrew Chugg, Alexander met Barsine for first time while her family went as exiles to Macedonia when they were both children in Macedon.

We can easily conclude from the quotes Alexander was deeply attracted by the beauty of Barsine and he fell in love with her. Their son Hercules was the result of this love affair.
To be continued.

[Ptolemy]

Quotes about Concubines

Soon after, Alexander assumed the attire of the Persian monarchs, as well as the diadem, which was unknown to the kings of Macedonia, as if he gave himself up to the customs of those whom be had conquered. And lest such innovations should be viewed with dislike, if adopted by himself alone, he desired his friends also to wear the long robe of gold and purple. That he might imitate the luxury too, as well as the dress of the Persians, he spent his nights among troops of the king’s concubines of eminent beauty and birth. To these extravagances he added vast magnificence in feasting; and lest his entertainments should seem jejune and parsimonious, he accompanied his banquets, according to the ostentation of the eastern monarchs, with games; being utterly unmindful that power is accustomed to be lost, not gained, by such practices.

[Justin, Book 12, part 3]

Then he put on the Persian diadem and dressed himself in the white robe and the Persian sash and everything else except the trousers and the long-sleeved upper garment. He distributed to his companions cloaks with purple borders and dressed the horses in Persian harness. In addition to all this, he added concubines to his retinue in the manner of Dareius, in number not less than the days of the year and outstanding in beauty as selected from all the women of Asia. Each night these paraded about the couch of the king so that he might select the one with whom he would lie that night. Alexander, as a matter of fact, employed these customs rather sparingly and kept for the most part to his accustomed routine, not wishing to offend the Macedonians

[Diodorus Sic. XVII.77.5]

Anyone can easily conclude that the guy was a womanizer (one every night??? an ancient Gousgounis :lol: )

[Ptolemy]

Quotes about Pancaste or Campaspe


Pausanias was in love with his wife, Apelles with Alexander’s mistress, she was called Pancaste and came from Larisa. She is said to have been the first woman Alexander slept with

[Aelian - Varia Historia, 12.34]

And yet Alexander conferred honour on him [Apelles] in a most conspicuous instance; he had such an admiration for the beauty of his favourite mistress named Pancaspe, , that he gave orders that she should be painted in the nude by Apelles, and then discovering that the artist while executing the commission had fallen in love with the woman, he presented her to him, great-minded as he was and still greater owing to his control of himself, and of a greatness proved by this action as much as by any other victory: because he conquered himself, and presented not only his bedmate but his affection also to the artist, and was not even influenced by regard for the feelings of his favourite in having been recently the mistress of a monarch and now belonged to a painter.

[Pliny, The Natural History]

According to Robin Lane Fox there are also quotes found about her love affair with Alexander in Lucian.

[Tsontos]

controversial quotes about Bagoas and Hephaestion.


Thats the funniest thing about this issue. modern 'observers' can find two males with whom alexander was supposed to have had gay relationship. One is Hephastion, his freind since childhood, and the other Bagoas.

and guess what Bagoas was! a Enuch!!:lol:

[pankration]

I addressed this topic on
http://www.thegreatalexander.com/alexander-forum/showthread.php?t=7

There is absolutely NO evidence from hundreds of contemporary historians that he was homosexual and I defy anyone to find such an account. Remember this was a period of time when a certain type of male sexuality was tolerated and there are a lot of accounts of Greeks having male lovers, including Philip of Macedon. Alexander however is on record as turning away male "offerings" and in fact being offended by these actions. For a man who had at least 3 intimate heterosexual relationships which produced children it is ludicrous to question his sexuality just because he had one close friend, Hephaestion (who was married also). Guys, our ancestor was not from Brokeback Mountain.

I also addressed this topic in a letter to Oliver Stone in the online magazine,
www.fightingbest.com.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Now you really hit it on the head. :clapping:

[Ptolemy]

Quotes about Roxane.

His [Alexander] marriage to Roxane was a love match, which began when he first saw her at the height of her youthful beauty taking part in a dance at a banquet, but it also played a great part in furthering his policy of reconciliation. The barbarians were encouraged by the feeling of partnership which their alliance created, and they were completely won over by Alexander’s moderation and courtesy and by the fact that without the sanctity of marriage he would not approach the only woman who had ever conquered his heart

[Plutarch: Alexander]


for himself he [Alexander] married Roxane, the only woman he ever loved; but Stateira, the daughter of Darius, he married for imperial and political reasons, since the union of the two races was highly advantageous.

[Plutarch Moralia: on the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander]

Now Oxyartes had a maiden daughter of age to marry called Roxane, and those who served with Alexander said that she was the loveliest woman they had seen in Asia next to Darius’ wife, and that when Alexander saw her he fell in love with her; despite his passion he was not ready to violate her as a war captive, but did not think it beneath him to take her in marriage. This was an action of Alexander that I approve and do not censure.

[Arrian IV.19.5]


While he conducted the festivities with warm geniality, Oxyartes had thirty young noblewomen brought in, one of whom was his own daughter Roxane, a woman of remarkable physical beauty with a dignified bearing rarely found in barbarians. Though she was one of a number chosen for their beauty, she nonetheless attracted everybody’s attention, especially that of the king, whose control over his appetites was weakening amid the indulgences of Fortune, against whom mankind is insufficiently armed. So it was that the man who had looked with what were merely paternal feelings on the wife and two unmarried daughters of Darius – and with these none but Roxane could be compared in looks – now fell in love with a young girl, of humble pedigree in comparison with royalty, and did so with such abandon as to make a statement that intermarriage of Persians and Macedonians would serve to consolidate his empire, that only thus could the conquered lose their shame and the conquerors their pride.

[Curtius, 8.4.25]

[Ptolemy]

Quotes about Thais

And did not Alexander the Great keep with him Thais, the Athenian prostitute? Cleitarchus speaks of her as having occasioned the burning of the palace at Persepolis. This Thais, after Alexander’s death, was married to Ptolemy, the first king of Egypt, and bore to him Leontiscus and Lagus, also a daughter, Irene, who was married to Eunostus, the king of Soli in Cyprus.

[Athenaeus: The Deipnosophists XIII,576e]

[Orphic_Hymn]

Ahhh, my favorite topic...

Just one objection to pankration's post.
True homosexuals did, do and probably always will exist, but under no condition was their sexual preference conceived as a norm nor was it accepted..



Anyway, lets see...

Was Alexander homo or bisexual ???

All progressive so-called scholars will rush to state "his sexual prefference is of no interest to us"
Interestingly enough they conveniently went around this very statement to support a movie that presented the very notion that is allegedly of "no interest to us" ...
Even National Geographic got into the game and conveniently published the Hellinic issue that was related to Alexander and made clear reference to his unproven sexual preference the same time that the reactions for the movie began....

Hypocricy !!!!


Today that we see everyone making claims on Hellinic history, after the Egyptians conveniently claiming that he is the son of Nectanabo, the Jews claiming that the Bible had foreseen his arrival and manipulating facts to present him kneeling before the priests of Solomon's temple, the Romans making claims of being his inheritors, our beloved Northern neighbors claiming him to be a Slav... well claims from the homosexual community are of no real suprise...

But was he really homosexual ???


No true scholar of either ancient nor modern times has provided any ounce of proof for this alleged prefernce. Among hundreds of quotes that could be presented, one of the most interesting comes from Athenaeus of Naucratis and his "The Deipnosophists" (X.45). There we we learn that :

"And Hieronymus. in his "Letters", says, that Theophrastus says, that Alexander was not open to 'bodily pleasures'; and accordingly, when Olympian had given him Callixene, a Thessaian courtesan, for a mistress, who was a most beautiful woman, and all this was done with the consent of Philip, {for they were afraid that he would become effeminate } ( ευλαβουντο γαρ μη γυννις ειη) she was constantly obliged to ask him herself to do his duty by her."

This part of the text clearly indicates several interesting aspects of Alexander's early life and the public opinion towards homosexuality..
We find his mother and father feared that his continence twoards 'bodily pleasures' are an indication of an effeminate future.

This quote actually indicates the true norm, which is that homosexuality was viewed upon as a plague that should be treated with, and actually destroys all claims of Phillip's alleged acceptance (or participation) towards homosexual relations.. It is actually simple logic to note that the 'preference' in question was never accepted as the very reference to fear makes this quite clear to us..

But he always continient ???
lets take a look at Alexander's character as depicted in the texts of Plutarch.


(Life of Alexander 21.4) :

"But Alexander, esteeming it more kingly to govern himself than to conquer his enemies, sought no intimacy with any one of them, nor indeed with any other women before marriage"



(Life of Alexander 21.5)
"But as for the other captive women, seeing that they were surpassingly stately and beautiful, he merely said jestingly that Persian women were torments to the eyes.1 And displaying in rivalry with their fair looks the beauty of his own sobriety and self-control, he passed them by as though they were lifeless statues for display."



(On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 9)

"Thus, in the first place, the very scope and aim of Alexander's expedition speaks him a philosopher, as one that sought not to gain for himself luxurious splendor or riches, but to establish concord, peace, and mutual community among all men."


(On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 11)

"Therefore we may behold in Alexander a warlike humanity, a meek fortitude, a liberality poised with good husbandry, anger easily appeased, chaste amours, a busy relaxation of mind, and labor not wanting recreation."


(On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander 11)

"I know not how to give a greater applause to the actions of Alexander, than by adding the word “philosophically,” for in that word all other things are included. Being ravished with the beauty of Roxana, the daughter of Oxyarthes, dancing among the captive ladies, he never assailed her with injurious lust, but married her philosophically."


(On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander II. 2)

"I could have wished, said Alexander, rather to have lost a part of my kingdom than to have seen Thessalus vanquished. Yet he neither interceded with the judges nor anywhere disapproved or blamed the judgment; believing it became him to be superior to all others, only to submit to justice."


We literally could go on and on, presenting quotes that refer to Alexander's high moral standards..
We must however note that it is at least unfair that this man, a man that was so abstemious, would see his name slandered by a handfull of ignorant self-proclaimed historians that choose some 2000yrs after his death, to promote a specific agenda on his shoulders, ..

Some have tried to suggest that the recorded fact of Philoxenus wrtting to Alexander about a young boy is an indication of his sexual preference.
Conveniently all these 'scholars' choose to ignore the fact that, while the proposition of the governor that attempted to gain Alexander's favor by sending the usual gifts he would send to the Persian King is well recorded, but on the other hand, so is the responce Alexander gave in return well recorded..
How could anyone speak of acceptance to such relations when we know that he was literally in outrage asking his men if he had ever done anything so shamefull to justify Philoxenus' disgracefull proposition and responded by giving him the title of "vilest of men" (Plutarch's Alexander 22.1) ??

The very record of his responce should have been more than enough to discharge any such thought.. But in this day and age, it seems that clear records of his denouncing the very though of such a relation are not enough to stop the promotion of the specific agenda..


Another little incident that has conveniently used by these 'progressivists' to promote the specific agenda, is that of Bagoas. In order to understand this, we'll compare the conveniently used version as presented by Athenaeus of Naucratis and his "The Deipnosophists" and that presented in Plutarch's Lives Alexander..

Athenaeus of Naucratis and his "The Deipnosophists" XIII 80

"Alexander the King was also very much in the habbit of giving in to this fashion. Accordingly, Dicarchus, in his treatise on the Sacrifice at Troy, says that lie was so much under the influence of Bagoas the eunuch, that he kissed him in the sight of tho whole theatre; and that when the whole theatre shouted in approval of the action, he repeated it"

(the habbit refered to is presented just above... lust for boys)



Plutarch's Life of Alexander 67.4

"We are told, too, that he was once viewing some contests in singing and dancing, being well heated with wine, and that his favourite, Bagoas, won the prize for song and dance, and then, all in his festal array, passed through the theatre and took his seat by Alexander's side; at sight of which the Macedonians clapped their hands and loudly bade the king kiss the victor, until at last he threw his arms about him and kissed him tenderly."

the word 'eromenos' analyzed in the thread "Myth of Homosexuality in ancient Hellas is translated here as 'favorite')



This is the event that according to these 'scholars' proves that Alexander was homosexual.
Of course the quote, indicates nothing remotely close, but rather indicates that after the crowd's demand, the King rewarded Bagoas with a kiss.

But is the whole kiss (on the cheek) actually so significant or have these specific scholars driven by their agenda overlooked specific facts ??


Is it possible that they ignore the Kallisthenes event and the famous quote “ I am going away only with the loss of a kiss.” ??

While totally foreign to Hellinic customs, Alexander having encompassed in his troops a large number of foreigners, accepted their custom of 'proskynesis'.. A custom that of course was never enforced on the Hellines but rather adopted by a partion that saw it as a ideal chance of getting in good graces with Alexander..Of course Kallisthenes as a student of Aristotle would never accept degrading himself by accepting this barbaric custom...
So as Arrian describes

Arrian Anabasis book 4 chap 12 :

"Alexander drank from a golden goblet the health of the circle of guests, and handed it first to those with whom he had concerted the ceremony of prostration. The first who drank from the goblet rose up and performed the act of prostration, and received a kiss from him. This ceremony proceeded from one to another in due order. But when the pledging of health came to the turn of Callisthenes, he rose up and drank from the goblet, and drew near, wishing to kiss the king without performing the act of prostration. Alexander happened then to be conversing with Hephaestion, and consequently did not observe whether Callisthenes performed the ceremony completely or not. But when Callisthenes was approaching to kiss him, Demetrius, son of Pythonax, one of the Companions, said that he was doing so without having prostrated himself. So the king would not permit him to kiss him"

Is the prostation some form of proof that Alexander was probably some kind of raging homosexual that had intercourse with every single member of his court or does this simply indicate the adoption of a foreign custom that some have strongly critisized ??

Obviously the second..


What is highly interesting when readnig these texts is a difference that may not be so appearant in the translated text.
Athenaeus clearly mentions this event and refers to a eunuch Bagoas, while Plutarch that gives a far better description of the event, makes no reference to eunuch but to a favorite..

From what we know, the 'titles' of 'eunuch' and 'eromenos' do not consort together, due to the second's pedagogic character. But even if we were to accept this 'title'. Should we actually believe that Alexander,who's continiency we noted above would chose to 'take in' Darius' personal 'eunuch' and present him in public when he wouldn't even think of having any sort of relations with Roxanne prior to their marriage ??

This is the very same man, that reacted in total outrage and continuously asked those around him if he had ever done anything so shamefull to accept the disgracefull proposition by Philoxenus.. So what could have changed now, is there possibly something we're missing here ??

Its obvious that everyone eventually gets the reputation that he deserves.. While Atheneus may be quite pleasant to read and has recorded several recepies and everyday habbits, under no condition can he be titled a historian nor a biographer of Alexander, for throughout his entire work, his very names is mentioned some 10 times all in all. Plutarch on the other hand, is considered one of the three authorities (he, Diodorus and Arrian) on Alexander's life and for a just reason..
While Atheneus passes through the event in only 3 lines, Plutarch gives us a fully detailed representation and thanks to him we know that there were actually 2 individuals named Bagoas.

Plutarch clearly makes reference to 2 Bagoas :

Plutarch Life of Alexander 39:

"To Parmenio, moreover, Alexander gave the house of Bagoas at Susa, in which it is said there was found apparel worth a thousand talents."

Plutarch "On the Fortune or the Virtue of Alexander" B' 5:

"The eunuch Bagoas took up the kingship of Persia and bestowed it upon Oarses and Darius."


So does Arrian make clear reference B' 5:

"My father was killed by conspirators whom you instigated5 as you have yourself boasted to all in your letters; and after slaying Arses, as well as Bagoas, and unjustly seizing the throne contrary to the law of the Persians, and ruling your subjects unjustly, you sent unfriendly letters about me to the Greeks, urging them to wage war with me."

But so does Diodorus in both books 16 and 17. Here we learn that Bagoas was an Egyptian chiliarch and that thank to him was the Egyptian revolt supressed. Artaxerxes takes him into his court and makes a eunuch out of him..
To cut a long story short, he is eventually poisonned by Darius and died..

These events took place well before Alexander's campaigne had ever begun. So it is more than obvious that Atheneus, who as we said is neither a historian nor his biographer is simply mistaken and that there was no eunuch named Bagoas in the theater..

Is it really possible that these scholars that strive to prove he was either homo- or bisexual have simply missed these facts ???

To my disappointment I'll have to say deffinitely not

[pankration]

Orphic Hymn presents only a few of many examples refuting the homosexuality of Alexander and I commend him for it. For the agenda driven revisionists of today this is yet another arena where they will fail as evidence clearly supports the position that Alexander was not homosexual; in fact his personal morality was at a level far above most people of his and any other's time.

On a personal note, I draw Orphic Hymn's attention to what I actually said in my last posting. I said "tolerated" not accepted. There is a big difference and I want all readers to understand that I too am of the opinion that the rampant homosexuality Greeks are accused of did not exist particularly in the way that has somehow become fashionable today. But it was part of society (and surprise) some societies even outlawed it and most disparaged it. Where it did occur there were differences between the version of the time and what we have today.

The "effeminate" was heartily discouraged. No question about it. In some cases older Greek men had young male lovers for a while--sort of a fashion for want of a better word. Historians indicate that Greek adult men would not let themselves be penetrated (obviously anally) so the relationship was rather one-sided. Other examples are included in Orphic Hymn's list so I recommend readers go back to it.