Byzantine sources about greekness of Macedonia

[Ptolemy]

Well, after having a good laugh with the quotes of Skopjans taken from Byzantine sources, i made a small search in the net in some of the sources they used and found these quotes from a greek guy.

"...the leader of the Avars... regarding the metropolis of the Thessalonians as the richest of all cities in the direction of Thrace and of all Illyricum,... mustered all who shared the faith and savage race of the Sklaveni... and along with other barbarians... ordered the expedition against the heavenly-guarded city of Thessaloniki... <13.109> ...and the barbarians arrived... and the number of besiegers was far greater not only of all the Macedonians but also of the Thessalians and Achaians (were one to gather them all as a heap in Thessaloniki)... <13.116> ...and the best elements of the troops of the city, along with the prefect,... were in the country of the Hellenes on public business... <13.117> Yet, the few defenders, with the help of God, came out of the city-gate... <14.135> But... who could carry such a level of devastation? Clearly the one who instilled this bravery into the Macedonians, for nothing can resist the Divine... <14.136> Afterwards the citizens dispatched the cavalry that confirmed the departure of the terrified enemies who continued to flee during the night to increase their distance, with no concern for their items, animals and slaves... And I am told that... the barbarians blinded by a light... had seen a vision of our most glorious... St.Dimitrios leading the troops... " <14.148>
<Patrologia Graecae, vol.116>

Here there is a clear distinction between Macedonians and the barbarians Sklaveni (slavs). Furthermore inside Thessaloniki, except Macedonians there were other Greeks as well like Thessalians and Achaians. Of course the propagandists of FYROM missed all that.

In addition the original greek text that Skopjans translated and transformed to their own need is the following:

"Toutw tw etei Kwvstavtivos tas kata Makedoviav Sklabivias nxmalwteuseuv, kai tous loipous ypoxeirious epoinsev..."
-Patrologia Graecae, vol.108: Theophanis, p.868.a

the greek word "kata" isnt the same with "throughout" the skops used. Kata shows direction, meaning the "sklaveni who were in the direction of Macedonia".

From Chronographia Theofanous we have:

"In 811, ...[The Bulgarian chan] Krum now sought for peace... but the emperor entered Bulgaria... and was killed by the barbarians. This great disaster fell upon the Christians on July the 25th... Krum severed the head of the dead Nikiforos and hang it on a log... After that he silver-lined the skull and used it as a drinking cup in order to show-off to the chieftains of the Sklaveni..." <414-416>

Another quote showing that Bulgars had mixed with Sklaveni. :lol:

"In 812, ...emperor Michael I [Rangabe] came against the Bulgarians...When the Bulgarians heard of the revolt [against the emperor] they took courage and bullied Thrace and MACEDONIA. The Christians left the cities of Anghialos and Berroia - although no one pressed them to do that -...and sought refuge... inside fortresses. The new settlers of Philippoupolis, Philippoi and Strymon left for their lands..." <420>

So again it is mentioned there were Christians in these cities (Byzantine Greeks) and the reference is clear that Bulgarians were invaders and finally left for their lands.

In 813, ...chan Krum asked for peace... and a confirmation of his rule over Bulgaria and Thrace up to the Mileones. ...but then came the news that he stormed the city of Mesimbria... The imperial armies led by the general of the East Leon and the general of MACEDONIA Ioannis (the so called) Aplakis... met him at Bersinikia, but were prevented by the emperor and his advisors... After their defeat near Andrianoupolis... the emperor resigned his office to the general of the East Leon [V the Armenian]... Krum marched all the way to the very walls of the Queen-of-Cities [Constantinople]..." <421-427>


So, the general of Macedonia is a Byzantine Greek (Ioannis Aplakis). :lol:

From the History of Nikitas Choniatis we have:

...and he (the Westerner) is full of hate towards the Hellene, ----,more than the serpent- this ancient enemy of mankind..., to the degree that it is preferable to encounter the latter in Paradise | than the awful Latins... And the citizens of Thessaloniki ----' suffered terribly by them."
Nikitas Choniatis (in 1205-1210?).
"History": 301-302

Clearly the citizens of Thessaloniki as HELLENES suffered from the hateful Latins.:lol:

From Chrestomathia we have :
"Many [old Balkan] nations have eclipsed... Today not even the name of the Macedonians or the Thracians exists."
<Chrestomathia VII.37>

Here is a clear reference to the ancient Macedonians whom their name has been eclipsed since they have been assimilated in the rest of the greek population. The name "macedonians" is only regional anymore and not ethnic as we learn from Chrestomathia. Poor skops, it is becoming a nightmare for you :lol:

From Monumenta Germaniae Historica we have:

"...the districts are of Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaloniki and the neighboring Sklavenies."
<Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Legum Sectio III, Concilia 2.2, p.476, lines 10-11.>

Wait a min. Do we have here a clear distinction between Macedonia (including theme of Thessaloniki) and the "neighboring Sklavenies"???? :clapping: :lol:

Poor skops...again its obvious that your slavic ancestors are different from the inhabitants of Macedonia who again are Byzantine greeks.

Again from Patrologiae Graecae we have:

"The [administrative] Theme of Macedonia: The region is called `Macedonia' after Makedon - the son of Zeus and Thyia [the sister of Hellen, the eponymous ancestor of the Hellenes]... as Hesiod attests. ...or he [Makedon] descends from Aiolos [the son of Hellen] as
Hellanikos says... Starting with the third son of Herakles, the [institution of] kingship lasted among the Macedonians... down to Perseus's defeat by the Romans [168-146 BCE]. Thus... in all formality the entity ceased to be a kingdom and was transformed into a province, and today it has become a theme and military command. The [early Roman] province,
[was] run by a consul...
<Patrologiae Graecae, vol.113; On Themes: 22-23>

or

"The [so-called] theme of Strymon is connected with Macedonia and it is not really an administrative theme but must be understood as a `kleisoura' [i.e. a lesser organization, something like a military base, a security-district], and Skythians -not Macedonians- `graze on' it; it was emperor Justinianus II Rinotmitos [685-695 and 705-711] who brought them to guard the check-points on the mountain-passages. Thessaloniki is a theme, and it is most certainly a part of Macedonia...
<Patrologiae Graecae, vol.113; On Themes: 23>

Interesting to know that some Scythians [probably the Bulgarians) are non-Macedonians. :lol:

"...and emperor Basileios II was eager to confront the Moesians...for they were storming the Roman [i.e. imperial] country-side, and looted the properties of the Macedonians, destroying/killing all adults. ...So he advanced to Sardiki... and the troops set a camp... They were casual and lazy... but the Moesiens setting a trap..."
<Leon Diakonos 10.8; or passage 171>

We already know from another topic Moesia had Slavs and bulgars. :lol: So my poor Skops your idiocy meets no limit. You used a source that says clearly Macedonians were different people and ofcourse enemies with your kind (slavs and Bulgars)

[akritas]

Perseas obviously you do not need vacations as many of us we need in order to re-load our batteries. Your last posts are full of argyments and execute any Skopjan propagnada.
Bravo sou file mou :clapping:

[Ptolemy]

"...these mountains [the Pindos Mountain-range near Kasto-
ria] were the limits between the [despotate of] `Old and
New Epeiros', and our Hellenic lands."

<Georgios Akropolitis, `Annales', Patrologia
Graecae, vol.140 col: 1196a (80)>

"So, I am down here among Bulgarians, a true Constanti-
noupolitan, a foreign body, living like a Bulgarian..."
<Theophylactos of Ohrid, "To the Despoina Lady
Maria [Alani]," 58-59>

Actually i am currently on vacations ;)

[Nikas]

Let me add some more:

Constantine Poryphorgenitus:

"The Slavs of the province of Peloponnesus revolted in the days of the emperor Theophilus and his son Michael, and became independent, and plundered and enslaved and pillaged and burnt and stole. And in the reign of Michael, the son of Theophilus, the protospatharius Theoctistus, surnamed Bryennius, was sent as military governor to the province of Peloponnesus with a great power and force, vis., of Thracians and Macedonians and the rest of the western provinces, to war upon and subdue them."

De Administrando Imperial, Constantine Porphyrogenitus, 50

I love this one. Using Macedonians (and Thracians) to put down the Slavs.


“The territory possessed by these Romani used to extend as far as the river Danube, and once on a time, being minded to cross the river and discover who dwelt beyond the river, they crossed it and came upon unarmed Slavonic nations, who were also called Avars…
…and the Slavs on the far side of the river, who were also called Avars,…”

Slavs on the fars side of the river (across the Danube)

“…and, what is more, the nations of those parts, the Croats and Serbs and Zachlumites, Terbuniotes and Kanalites and Diocletians and the Pagani, shook off the reins of the empire of the Romans and became self-governing and independent, subject to none. Princes, as they say, these nations had none, but only ‘zupans’, elders, as is the rule in the other Slavonic regions.”

No 'Macedonians' in the Slavic regions.

More from Maurice's Strategikon (5-6th century):

“The nations of the Slavs and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs…They live among nearly impenetrable forests, rivers, lakes, and marshes, and have made the exits from their settlements branch out in many directions because of the dangers they might face…They live like bandits and love to carry out attacks against their enemies in densely wooded, narrow, and steep places…They are completely faithless and have no regard for treaties, which they agree to more out of fear than by gifts.”

Maurice's Strategikon, Book 11.4 , page 120

Hardly civilized Macedonians.

“By means of such a rumor and the anxiety of their chiefs, each of whom will be worried about his own problems, they will not have the opportunity to get together and cause trouble for our army. Do not station these troops close to the Danube, for the enemy would find out how few they are and consider them unimportant. Nor whould they be very far away, so their will be no delay, it becomes necessary, to have them join the invading army. They should stay about a day’s march from the Danube. This army should cross over into enemy territory suddenly and make its invasion on clear and level ground.”

Book 11.4, 122-123

Slavs over the Danube yet again.

The Miracles of St. Demetrius, Anastasius the Librarian (8th century)


Miracle 9
Among the other miracles I wish to insert this one also, a miracle which the holy martyr Demetrius worked in our time. There was a certain bishop from the country of the Africans, Cyprian by name, who cared for the true priesthood and led a life most deserving of God. He arranged to journey to the queen of cities, Byzantium, on a pressing matter of necessity. And when they had sailed for many days and had already drawn near to the regions of Greece, he was captured by the most fierce Slavs together with all his [companions]. When they had divided these captives among themselves, the [Slavs] enslaved the aforementioned bishop together with his [companions]. When these things had been done in this way, they returned to their native places, and each barbarian placed the burden of slavery upon his captive according as he wished. Bishop Cyprian managed his lord's stores and distributed his foodstuffs wisely and with foresight, and in praiseworthy fashion took comfort in prayers, vigils, and fasts. And he said to the Lord, "Although I am without any merit, you appointed me a shepherd of your flock; how have I now been brought to such a state that I have been demoted from such rank to the service of the barbarians ? But I call to mind that this has happened to me on account of my sins, and that it is for this reason that I am held ensnared by this affliction. Who will guide my sheep now that their shepherd has been captured by barbarian animals ?" While he was weeping about these and similar things, a beautiful young man, decorous in form, with a military bearing and appearance, said to him, "If you want to be freed from the slavery in which you are held and to be rescued from the barbarians, rise and follow me. Watch yourself, while we are walking, lest you say anything at all to me; but let us march each striving for quiet and praying to God in our minds." Then the bishop replied to him, "Who are you and from where have you come here ?" The other said to him, "I am called Demetrius, and I am a soldier of the great emperor. My house stands in the middle of the city of Thessalonica, to which I will lead you without harm if you follow me."



The contradiction between the barbarian Slavs and the civilized Thessaloniki with it's loyal Saint, Demetrius, is obvious.

[Ptolemy]

some random quotes from Byzantine sources, generally speaking about hellenes during Byzantine empire.


"These people (i.e. the barbarian invaders) have never enjoyed the
imperial benevolence, and have no Hellenic manners to behave..."

"The Administrator's Report on the Crimean Peninsula." (in 964?): #2



"Marianos, speaking in their language, advised the Latins... not to
fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit him... with
his cross-bow... a weapon quite unknown to the Hellenes..."

Anna Komnini (in 1148-53).
"Alexiad": 10.8.5-6


"Because we are Hellenes in terms of stock, as our language and ancestral education betray... And also, this land... Hellenes always have been inhabiting..."

Georgios Plithon Gemistos (in 1418)
"About the Matters in Peloponnisos":



"...and one can not but bless himself for not being a barbarian but
having been born an Hellene. The same thing saying myself..."

Nikiforos Grigoras (in 1327).
"Epistle to Sir Andronikos Zaridis":


"You push them back... and preserve... the freedom and faith of all
the Hellenes who live in Asia..."

Dimitrios Kydonis (in 1366).
"Advising the Romans":

"The military punishments are to be pronounced before the divisions of soldiers both in Roman and Hellenic."

Emperor Maurikios? (590-620?).
"On Strategy": 1.8

"Because these words do not come from (the lips of) people who are unwise or ignorant of what is precise and commendable in the language
of Hellas..."

Arethas of Kaisaria (in 900s), "Public Anathematization of Polygamy"


"His pronunciation (i.e. of M.Psellos) was such as you would expect of a Latin who had come to our country as a young man and learnt the
Hellenic (language) thoroughly, but was not quite clear in his articulation."

Anna Komnini (in 1148-53), "Alexiad": 5:8.8




"There is no archaeological evidence for Slavic penetration of imperial
territory before the end of the 6th century [i.e. 602]...
[B]Traces of Slavic culture in Greece are rare...
The polity created in Moesia ca.680 by the Bulgars of Asparuch
appeared... stable. ...Now Thessalonike and its environs, rather than
the Danube, was the frontier and focus of Slavo-Byzantine relations.
...Two types of Slavs appear soon after 800: mobile military colonists
who were ready to settle as allies... within the Byzantine empire,
especially in Peloponnesos (...), in Asia Minor (...), and in Italy;
and the former Avar military elite and their retainers who were eager
to settle and establish their power... under Frankish or Byzantine
sovereignty, for example in Pannonia and Moravia.
...Though originally a failure in Moravia where it was introduced,
Slavic laid down stronger roots in Bulgaria, whence it expanded to
Kievan Rus' and Serbia...
The role of the Slavs in Byzantium has, however, been exaggerated by
some Russian and Soviet scholars..."

"Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium," s.v. "Slavs," vol.3, pp.1917-19.

[HellenicPride]

After the dissolution of the Kingdom of Macedonia, the Romans sought its political, military and economic annihilation. They established four kingless federated states Amphipolis, Thessaloniki, Pella and Pelagonia in order to destroy its unity. But Greek civilization influenced the Romans and later the separation of the eastern from the western state led to the creation of the Byzantine empire, that had an ecumenical character and slowly transformed itself into an eastern Greek state.

During the early Christian times the word 'Hellene' meant heathen pagan, and for this reason its use was avoided, the Greeks calling themselves Romans or Grecians. But later they began to call themselves again Hellenes. Constantine Palaeologus, the last Greek emperor, who fell fighting the Turks at the walls of the Queen of the cities, Constatinople, in 1453, used to call that city the hope and joy of all Hellenes.

In this new period of Greek history, Hellenism is present in Macedonia, particularly in Thessalonica, which since its foundation during the Hellenistic times up to this day, never ceased to be the ' metropolis ' of Macedonia. Strabo was the first to use this characterization. Since the early Christian times it continuously maintained its importance as the capital of Macedonia and as a commercial but also intellectual centre. It is one city that gave us characteristic examples of Byzantine architecture from the 5th to the 14th century A.D., and justifiably it is called a living museum of Byzantine art of all periods.

In 1222 Thessalonica became the seat of government of the empire in Thessalonica, while simultaneously there were also the Greek empire of Nicaea and the Latin one of Constatinople. According to E. Vasilieve, Thessalonica was the important economic centre of the Byzantine empire after Constatinople. Every year at the end of October on the occasion of the feast of Saint Demetrius, and imposing fair took place in which participated not only Greeks, but Slavs, Italians, Spanish Portuguese, French and other peoples from the distant shores of the Atlantic, who came to sell their wares. This commercial fair which was Demetria was revived again in Thessalonica after World War II as a cultural manifestation.

Vasiliev writes also that the 14th century was the golden age of Thessalonica for the arts and letters. In a word, at the time of political and economic decadence, Hellenism appeared to concentrate all its force in order to show the vitality of classical civilization and to offer hopeful signs for the future Greek renaissance of the 19th century.

Levtchenko, professor of the University of Leningrad, writes in his book, that in spite of the hardships that had befallen it at various times, Thessalonica was still in the 14th century a city with a large population, having 40,000 inhabitants. Its commerce was flourishing and its crafts developed. Just as in earlier times, the city continued to be the port and the market place of the whole Macedonia. There were transported goods from Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria.

The great contribution of Byzantine history, writes Yiannis Kordatos in his Introduction to the book of Levtchenko, is that it stood a guardian of Greek Civilization which it imparted to the Slavs and the other peoples of Europe and of the Mediterranean basin, and that Byzantine Civilization is the inheritance of the Hellenistic times. Levtchenko also writes that the greatest conquest of Byzantine civilization from the 9th to 11th century, was the profound and solid penetration into the enormous regions of Eastern Europe that was the result of the Christianization of Russia, and that the religion and culture of Russia are of Byzantine derivation.

Hellenism has thanks not to Athens, Sparta, or Corinth but to the Greeks of Macedonia the unique Monastic State of Ayion Oros, which comprises a continuous spiritual presence in the Greek lands. Ayion Oros, a creation of Byzantine Hellenism, constitutes for over a thousand years an invaluable inheritance of the Greek Nation, with its treasures, works of art and heirlooms.

From the book falisfication of Macedonian history Nicolas K. Martis,

[Slayer]

The fall of Constantinople 1453

Steve Runciman

Plethon eagerly supported a terminology which showed how greatly the Byzantine world had changed. Hitherto the word Hellene had been used by the Byzantines, except when they applied it to language, to describe a pagan Greek as opposed to a Christian. Now, with the empire shrunken to be little more than a group of city-states, and with the Western world full of admiration for ancient Greece, the humanists began to call themselves Hellenes. The empire was still officially the Roman Empire; but the word Romaioi, by which the Byzantines had always described themselves in the past, was abondoned by educated circles, till at last Romaic came to denote the language of the people, in contrast with the literary tongue. The fashion started as Thessalonica, where the intellectuals were very conscious of their Greek Heritage. Nicholas Cabasilas, who was a Thessalonian, wrote of 'our community of Hellas'.
Several of his contemporaries followed his example. By the end of the century Manuel was often adressed as Emperor of the Hellenes. A few centuries previously any western embassy that arrived as Constantinople with letters addressed to the 'Emperor of the Greeks' was not received at Court. Now, though a few traditionalists disliked the new term and though no one intended it as an abdication of the Empire's oecumenical claims, it flourished, to remind the Byzantines of their Hellenic heritage. In its last decades Constantinople was consciously a Greek City.

The Dying Empire Pg15 The Fall of Constantinople by Steven Runciman
Cambridge University Press

[Ptolemy]

Numerous cities along the Danube were sacked by the Avars, while Slav raids and migrations were directed towards the parts of the Balkans remote from Constantinople, particularly towards Greece, where Thessalonica was besieged and Athens and Corinth sacked.

The history of Theophylact Simocatta, page 16

So Thessalonica was part of Greece.

The place had obtained its name from the actions of Alexander of Macedon, for the son of Philip had gone there with his Macedonian force and Greek allies, razed a very strong fortress and slaughtered the barbarians in it.

The history of Theophylact Simocatta, page 177

Theophylact is clear to distinguish Barbarians from Alexander's mixed force of Macedonians and their Greek allies.

For from remote times until Ptolemy, wo was called Philadelphus, these regions were completely and utterly foreign and dangerous for those who entered. But after the aforementioned king had campaigned against Ethiopia with a Greek force, the facts about this region have become known exceedingly

The history of Theophylact Simocatta, page 239

Ptolemaic army was a Greek army.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Nice! :):):)

[Nikas]

It is simply laughable, that despite the immense evidence to the contrary, these Slavs of Paeonia-Dardania still cannot accept that they arrived to the area a good thousand or so years after the Macedonian state was formed, and were the mortal enemies of the Macedonians, not their descendants! Here we have a couple of excerpts from the sixth century, from Procopius, personal secretary to the great general Belisarius and well connected inside Imperial politics and affairs:

"When the Eruli, being defeated by the Lombards in the above−mentioned battle, migrated from their ancestral homes, some of them, as has been told by me above,[192] made their home in the country of Illyricum, but the rest were averse to crossing the Ister River, but settled at the very extremity of the world; at any rate, these men, led by many of the royal blood, traversed all the nations of the Sclaveni one after the other, and after next crossing a large tract of barren country, they came to the Varni,[193] as they are called. After these they passed by the nations of the Dani,[194] without suffering violence at the hands of the barbarians there. Coming thence to the ocean, they took to the sea, and putting in at Thule,[195] remained there on the island."

Book V,XVI,192

"This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbour of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni[134] and Antae,[135] who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks."

Book V, XXVII, 134

"The emperor also sent Narses the eunuch to the rulers of the Eruli, in order to persuade the most of them to march to Italy. And many of the Eruli followed him, commanded by Philemuth and certain others, and they came with him into the land of Thracia. For the intention was that, after passing the winter there, they should be depatched to Belisarius at the opening of the spring. And they were accompanied also by John whom they called the Glutton. And it so fell out that during this journey they unexpectedly rendered a great service to the Romans. For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. Now the Eruli suddenly came upon these barbarians and joined battle with them, and, although far outnumbered, they unexpectedly defeated them, and some they slew, and the captives they released one and all to go to their homes."

Book VII, XIII

It seems pretty obvious that these Slavs were barbarians outside of the Empire that had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Macedonia and the Macedonians.

[Ptolemy]

Good work Nikas!