HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. A Critical Review [Archive]

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Otto

06-29-2006, 01:08 AM

Contents
1 "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks"
2 Introduction-"HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks"
3 General Analysis
4 Political and Unsupported Claims in a Scientific Journal
5 Poor Science "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks"
6 DNA Samples Used in the HLA Study
7 Genotyping of the Samples
8 Conclusions
9 References Introduction-"HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks"

Published in the magazine Tissue Antigens February 2001, vol. 57, no. 2, pp. 118-127 by Arnaiz-Villena A et al., "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" is an article which attempts to prove the hypothesis that Skopjian-slavic people were in fact present in Macedonia, Greece in ancient times although a vast array of artifactual and literary evidence from the scientific, historical and archaelogical evidence points to the fact that these people migrated many centuries after Alexander the Great.

Other papers from Arnaiz-Villena et al. have been rejected and dismissed as poor scientific research, and this paper is no different than the others.
See Arnaiz-Villena Poor Research (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Arnaiz-Villena_Poor_Research)
General Analysis

The study by Arnaiz-Villena et al. represents work that is not only biased due to the fact that collaborators of the work were located in Skopje, F.Y.R.O.M, but also due to the fact that all the DNA samples were analyzed at a facility in Skopje, F.Y.R.O.M. Analysis of the data at a neutral facility with a double-blind study would have been more appropriate in this case.
For a scientific paper (however published in a very poor impact journal less than 1 impact), it makes political and historical claims which are controversial and are not well supported by literature. Scientific articles do not do this, and this is a biased article on several fronts whose purpose is made clear.

Political and Unsupported Claims in a Scientific Journal

Science is a field supported by data. There is no scientific or historical data which proves ancient Macedonians were in fact a Slavic people. None at all. However the authors make the BOLD claim:
Ancient Macedonians were among the peoples that lived between northern Greece (Thessaly) and Thrace in the Balkans and were considered by the classical Greeks as "non-Greek barbarians" that could not participate in the Greek Olympic Games ( 3). Herodotus wrote that "Macedonians" were "Dorians" and were never admitted to the Greek community ( 4). They did not speak Greek but another language presently unknown and of which only proper names remain; nowadays, they speak a Slavic language ( 5). Arnaiz-Villena et al.
The references 3-5 cited are poor ones, and historically inaccurate. Three references for such bold claims are also proof of the desperate idea.
In fact, all that they mention is untrue.
Macedonians participated in the ancient Olympic Games, and were thus considered Greek. See Partipication of Greeks in the Olympics (http://www.saeamerica.org/en/useful/Macedonians_Olympics_Heritage.doc) by Nikos Martis
Interestingly, if ancient Macedonians spoke an ancient language different from Greek, (note there was no ancient "Greece", Greece was composed of many tribes which spoke various dialects and varied from the "barbarous" Spartans to the democratic Athenians) why is it that present-day Skopjians retain no vestiges from the ancient language?
"Barbaros", or "barbarian" was a term thrown around by "Greeks" in ancient times. Spartans were in fact considered a barbarous tribe by the Athenians, which were more sophisticated and democratic, whereas the Spartans were war-like. Does this same reasoning mean that ancient Macedonians (or Spartans!) were not "Greek"? What about the fact that they shared and worshipped the same gods, had very similar written / spoken language and words, participated in the Olympic Games together (in which only Greeks were allowed), and shared many customs? Artifactual, literary, and historical evidence prove that this was the case.
On the other hand the "barbarian hypothesis" is a poor one and is poor reasoning. It has no artifactual evidence to support it.
Poor Science "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks"

Furthermore, the poorly performed scientific work and extreme conclusions drawn from such poor data point to political, rather than scientific motivations for the study as influenced by the Skopjian group which was under collaborations with Arnaiz-Villena et al.

Samples were analyzed by the Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of Macedonia. Due to the location of this analysis facility, bias of the data analysis and results could have been easily been done as the study was not a double-blind or blind study. This means that the samples analyzed were known. Professional studies are performed blind, meaning that the samples are numbered and the samples are unknown to the DNA analysis facility.
DNA Samples Used in the HLA Study

DNA from all the populations except the Slavic "Macedonian", were taken from Clayton et al. 1997. This means that 3 years or more passed before the DNA samples were used by Arnaiz-Villena et al.. Samples could have easily been mixed, labels could have been lost, and DNA sample quality drastically reduced depending on storage and shipping of the samples from Clayton et al. to Arnaiz-Villena et al.

An average of 80 samples were collected from different populations. This is a very small n number especially when the diversity of the populations studied is taken into consideration. Hundreds of samples should have been taken from each ethnic population at the very least to make conclusions which have a grounding and scientific basis. Furthermore, the locations and the type of people the samples were collected from was not mentioned, adding to the confusion and the poor data of the study.

Genotyping of the Samples

Genotyping was performed using a reverse dot-blot technique with the Automated Innolipa system (Innogenetics N.V., Zwijndrecht, Belgium). This is not a common technique for genotyping. Direct DNA sequencing could have easily been conducted on all the samples.
However, "DNA sequencing was only done when indirect DNA typing (reverse dot-blot) yielded ambiguous results." This is very poor scientific technique.

There was no mention of controls used in the study at all, which makes the analysis of the data and the conclusions made from the data even more rediculous.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/images/thumb/c/c0/HLA1.jpg/200px-HLA1.jpg (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Image:HLA1.jpg) http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Image:HLA1.jpg)

Arnaiz-Villena et al. 2001 Tissue Antigens

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/images/thumb/6/64/HLA2.gif/200px-HLA2.gif (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Image:HLA2.gif) http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/../wiki/index.php?title=Image:HLA2.gif)

GoÂ´mez-Casado, (Arnaiz-Villena) et al. 2000 Tissue Antigens

Interestingly, although the samples used are the same, the genetic distance varies widely between Greek and French populations in the two papers meaning that there is a huge discrepancy between the data. This suggests that the data is poorly analyzed and data has very little if any conclusive power.
Moreover, the clustering of Cretans completely separate from other Greeks is completely absurd and will make sense when the authors attempt to use this absurdity as the basis of their conclusion.
Conclusions

The obvious bias of the collaborating Skopjian Slavic researchers is evident in this study by the political and historical claims made not only by poor references outside of the data collected in this study, but also the attempt to classify "Greeks" as non-"Macedonians".
"Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with Cretans ( Tables 3, 4, Figs 1â€“3). This supports the theory that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks ( 10) about 2000 B.C. Other possible explanation is that they might have shared a genetic background with the Greeks before an hypothetical admixture between Greeks and sub-Saharans might have occurred. The cultural, historical and genetic identity of Macedonians is established according to our results. However, 19th century historians focused all the culture in Greece ignoring all the other Mediterranean cultures present in the area long before the classical Greek one."
This is absurd on many fronts.
The data does not prove any "admixture" of Greeks with sub-saharans. Populations share many HLA types and this alone does not determine admixture or the origin of Greeks.
Furthermore, the authors claim based on their data that Cretans are genetically distant to Greeks. Crete is an island located within Greece, and has been for over a thousand years. The data is either based on a mistake in analysis, or simply confirms how irrelevant their data is to the true reality of populations. Cretans are Greek, and are very closely related to mainland Greeks, more so than any other population in the world. To put this in perspective, it is similar to claiming Texans are more related to Australians than Americans.

As mentioned again, the data as mentioned is poor, the samples were not analyzed blindly, and thus the authors jump to too many conclusions from shaky data. Further political and poor historical interpretation which are not well supported by historical data follow their conclusions.

In conclusion, it makes sense not to try and support a theory on the basis of poorly collected, analyzed and interpreted data, especially when the data is not analyzed blinded and is analyzed in a facility where bias of the samples can easily occur. Furthermore, the lack of controls and the political interventions clearly confirms the lack of scientific skill and professionalism of the research groups involved.
Future studies should address analyzing many markers, as HLA genes themselves are not sufficient to support the bold claims made. A multitude of SNPs, markers and polymorphisms should be assessed and compared to DNA isolated form ancient Macedonian samples. DNA from hundreds if not thousands of individuals should be collected to provide a descent basis from which to launch a study of this magnitude. Although a difficult task, this is the only way to prove anything with a solid scientific evidence. Fortunately, a vast array of historical, literary, and artifactual evidence exists that proves that ancient Macedonians were indeed a Greek tribe. The mentioned study makes no progress in furthering our understanding of this relationship, and makes a poor political attempt to prove otherwise.
References

Clayton J & Lonjou C. Allele and Haplotype frequencies for HLA loci in various ethnic groups. In: Charron D, ed.Genetic diversity of HLA. Funcional and medical implications.Vol 1. Paris: EDK, 1997: 665 820.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.
Gomez-Casado E, del Moral P, Martinez-Laso J, Garcia-Gomez A, Allende L, Silvera-Redondo C, Longas J, Gonzalez-Hevilla M, Kandil M, Zamora J, Arnaiz-Villena A. HLA genes in Arabic-speaking Moroccans: close relatedness to Berbers and Iberians. Tissue Antigens. 2000 Mar;55(3):239-49.

The author is an Ph.D / M.Sc in Biochemistry | Molecular Biology at the University of Toronto.

Xiotis

06-29-2006, 12:44 PM

Istor

07-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Tsontos

07-24-2006, 07:55 AM

The names of the scientists who took part in the paper can be seen below. Surely its a coincidence that, of study which killed two birds with one stone by sensationally discovering the Sub-saharan genetic origin of the Greeks and that the population of FYROM is the descendents of the ancient Macedonians, 3 of the esteemed scientists are in fact natives of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia:

A. Arnaiz-Villena
K. Dimitroski
J. Moscoso
E. GÃ³mez-Casado
C. Silvera-Redondo
P. Varela
M. Blagoevska
V. Zdravkovska

----------------------------------------------------------------

Its disgraceful that we even have to defend ourselves against such racist fraud. And as Ive just demonstrated it is exactly that; blatant fraud.

Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit
Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002); doi:10.1038/415115b

Sir â€“ Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001 (http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaCitation.taf?id=N1&jtl=NATURE&cd_year=2001&vid=414&ppf=382)) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.

The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to "examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present ... conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews".
They conclude: "Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewishâ€“Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times."

It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.

Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

Neil Risch
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

Alberto Piazza
Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v415/n6868/full/415115b_r.html

Ptolemy

07-24-2006, 05:31 PM

Lets see...

Mark Jobling, author of Human Evolutionary Genetics, an important new textbook about the genetic origins and makeup of humans, In chapter 1, Jobling uses Arnaiz-Villena's work on the alleged "Sub-Saharan African" origin of the Greeks as an example of misguided interpretation (p.12):

As an example, Figure 1.5 illustrates the arbitrariness of different possible population groupings based upon DNA sequence diversity at an HLA locus. Often an objective way to choose between different interpretations is not obvious (though objective methods are discussed later in this book), and in its absence, simple assertion often fills the vacuum

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/kemp/joblingT.jpg

Figure 1.5: Grouping populations â€“ take your pick.

Relationships between populations based on DNA sequence diversity data at the HLA-DRB1 locus, displayed as a correspondence analysis plot (similar to principal components analysis; see Chapter 6) in which clustered populations are genetically similar. (a) Populations, with names indicated; (b, c, d) Three alternative groupings of the populations (there are others). The grouping chosen by Arnaiz-Villena et al. (2001) is (d) (adduced as support for a sub-Saharan origin for the Greeks) but is essentially arbitrary. Why is it preferred to alternative groupings shown in (b) and (c)? If the population origins were unknown when the groupings were made, would it affect the outcome? Note that this locus is generally regarded as being under strong selection. Adapted from Arnaiz-Villena et al. (2001).[Q1]

Other researches:

More importantly, this obvious affinity has been confirmed with the most up-do-date research on autosomal microsatellites. For example, Ayub et al. 2003 used 182 loci (as opposed to Arnaiz-Villena's one) to group several world populations based on genetic distance. Their results reveal Greeks' distance from Africans, and closeness to Basques and other Europeans: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14533184

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/7310/greeks_sm.jpg
------------------------------------------------------

HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in comparison with other populations.

Ivanova M, Rozemuller E, Tyufekchiev N, Michailova A, Tilanus M, Naumova E.

Central Laboratory of Clinical Immunology, Medical University, Sofia, Bulgaria.

In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.

PMID: 12542743 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12542743
-----------------------------------------------------------

Petlichkovski A, Efinska-Mladenovska O, Trajkov D, Arsov T, Strezova A, Spiroski M.

Institute of Immunobiology and Human Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University Ss. Kiril and Metodij, Skopje, Macedonia. petlichkovski@yahoo.com

The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Macedonian population, so far. The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. The study included 158 unrelated healthy volunteers of Macedonian origin and nationality, having a Christian Orthodox religion. After the simultaneous amplification of exon-2 on both HLA-DRB1 alleles, DNA sequencing was used for genotype assignment. In the 158 samples analysed, all 316 alleles were typed and a total of 29 different DRB1 alleles were detected, with DRB1*1601 being the most frequent allele (14.9%), followed by DRB1*1104 (13.9%). A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree.

PMID: 15361127 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15361127&dopt=Abstract

admin

07-25-2006, 12:14 PM

Lets see...

Mark Jobling, author of Human Evolutionary Genetics, an important new textbook about the genetic origins and makeup of humans, In chapter 1, Jobling uses Arnaiz-Villena's work on the alleged "Sub-Saharan African" origin of the Greeks as an example of misguided interpretation (p.12):

As an example, Figure 1.5 illustrates the arbitrariness of different possible population groupings based upon DNA sequence diversity at an HLA locus. Often an objective way to choose between different interpretations is not obvious (though objective methods are discussed later in this book), and in its absence, simple assertion often fills the vacuum

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/kemp/joblingT.jpg

Figure 1.5: Grouping populations â€“ take your pick.

Relationships between populations based on DNA sequence diversity data at the HLA-DRB1 locus, displayed as a correspondence analysis plot (similar to principal components analysis; see Chapter 6) in which clustered populations are genetically similar. (a) Populations, with names indicated; (b, c, d) Three alternative groupings of the populations (there are others). The grouping chosen by Arnaiz-Villena et al. (2001) is (d) (adduced as support for a sub-Saharan origin for the Greeks) but is essentially arbitrary. Why is it preferred to alternative groupings shown in (b) and (c)? If the population origins were unknown when the groupings were made, would it affect the outcome? Note that this locus is generally regarded as being under strong selection. Adapted from Arnaiz-Villena et al. (2001).[Q1]

Other researches:

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/7310/greeks_sm.jpg
------------------------------------------------------

HLA polymorphism in Bulgarians defined by high-resolution typing methods in comparison with other populations.

Ivanova M, Rozemuller E, Tyufekchiev N, Michailova A, Tilanus M, Naumova E.

Central Laboratory of Clinical Immunology, Medical University, Sofia, Bulgaria.

In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods in the Bulgarian population. Comparisons with other populations of common historical background were performed. Most HLA-A, -B, -DRB alleles and haplotypes observed in the Bulgarian population are also common in Europe. Alleles and haplotypes considered as Mediterranean are relatively frequent in the Bulgarian population. Observation of Oriental alleles confirms the contribution of Asians to the genetic diversity of Bulgarians. The use of high-resolution typing methods allowed to identify allele variants rare for Europeans that were correlated to specific population groups. Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. The HLA-A,-B,-DRB1 allele and haplotype diversity defined by high-resolution DNA methods confirm that the Bulgarian population is characterized by features of southern European anthropological type with some influence of additional ethnic groups. Implementation of high-resolution typing methods allows a significantly wider spectrum of HLA variation to be detected, including rare alleles and haplotypes, and further clarifies the origin of Bulgarians.

PMID: 12542743 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12542743
-----------------------------------------------------------

Petlichkovski A, Efinska-Mladenovska O, Trajkov D, Arsov T, Strezova A, Spiroski M.

Institute of Immunobiology and Human Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University Ss. Kiril and Metodij, Skopje, Macedonia. petlichkovski@yahoo.com

The Macedonian population is of special interest for HLA anthropological study in the light of unanswered questions regarding its origin and relationship with other populations, especially the neighbouring Balkanians. Two studies have been performed to examine HLA molecular polymorphism in the Macedonian population, so far. The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. The study included 158 unrelated healthy volunteers of Macedonian origin and nationality, having a Christian Orthodox religion. After the simultaneous amplification of exon-2 on both HLA-DRB1 alleles, DNA sequencing was used for genotype assignment. In the 158 samples analysed, all 316 alleles were typed and a total of 29 different DRB1 alleles were detected, with DRB1*1601 being the most frequent allele (14.9%), followed by DRB1*1104 (13.9%). A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree.

PMID: 15361127 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15361127&dopt=Abstract

Excellent analysis...

yes those papers you referenced are not only better conducted, but they are unbiased... :)

MAKEDON01

05-08-2008, 08:33 AM

Blood and DNA are not related to ethnicity, at least within a race (yellow, white, black..). If I adopt any SlavoSkopian child I 'll make it proud Macedonian like me. During our long history, we Greeks have hellenized many foreign peoples who settled Greece: Pelasgians, Romans, Thracians, Slavs, ....

This was also happened to the Greek pupils kiddnapped by Ottomans during the dark times. Now, those pupils' descents are Turks.

Alexander had no DNA test to test his soldiers Macedonism.

Even if SlavoSkopians have some OLD genes, this doesn't make them Macedonians. Their old local genes are Dardanian, Peonian, Illyrian ....

How fake is that. Like the australian race made up of a million different people, i can't believe a greek actually admits it. Tell me what race of people is greece made up off going by what u say there will not be many pure greeks.. That is no race my friend, slap the shit out of a greek u get the real original person that will come out. Just like a kinder surprise eat the chocolate and find out what is inside.

TheMacedonian

05-26-2008, 10:18 PM

The Macedonian people are very homogenous since we preserved our blood since ancient times.

MAKEDONIJA BISER OD BALKANOT NA SVETOT

Victor

05-26-2008, 10:27 PM

The Macedonian people are very homogenous since we preserved our blood since ancient times.

MAKEDONIJA BISER OD BALKANOT NA SVETOTI agree with you about the Greeks of Macedonia.
The Serbomans of fyrom are quite the opposite.

Foti66

05-26-2008, 10:28 PM

The Macedonian people are very homogenous since we preserved our blood since ancient times.

MAKEDONIJA BISER OD BALKANOT NA SVETOT

Friend, haven't you made enough of a fool of yourself?

TheMacedonian

05-26-2008, 10:28 PM

Greeks of Macedonia came from Turkey, we Macedonians however have been there since the dawn of time. Questions?

Victor

05-26-2008, 10:32 PM

Greeks of Macedonia came from Turkey, we Macedonians however have been there since the dawn of time. Questions?Dawn of time???Prove it Bulgarche.

TheMacedonian

05-26-2008, 10:35 PM

“Ζα γορδοστ οδ Μακεδονια, δα βογ βιδε σο νασ!” – Alexander the Great

Victor

05-26-2008, 10:37 PM

“Ζα γορδοστ οδ Μακεδονια, δα βογ βιδε σο νασ!” – Alexander the GreatJUst as I thought,another Serboman clown.:rolleyes:

TheMacedonian

05-26-2008, 10:43 PM

^Why do you call my ancestor Alexander the Great a "serboman"?

That's not nice my Romanoi friend.

Victor

05-26-2008, 10:50 PM

^Why do you call my ancestor Alexander the Great a "serboman"?

That's not nice my Romanoi friend.He was the worlds biggest GErkoman,why dont you follow your "ancestors":rolleyes: example?

TheMacedonian

05-26-2008, 10:55 PM

^He actually fought greeks, so much for your theory :D

Long live Makedonija free of greeks!

MAKEDONELLHNAS

05-26-2008, 11:05 PM

Greeks of Macedonia came from Turkey, we Macedonians however have been there since the dawn of time. Questions?

My anscestors are from Makedonia, and not from turkey or anywhere and they have been there for centuries, your anscestors came from asia, you not even European how can you be Macedonian?

Victor

05-26-2008, 11:06 PM

^He actually fought greeks, so much for your theory :D

Long live Makedonija free of greeks!JUst like other Greek tribes fought each other constantly,so much for your theory.
Also,ALexander actually killed thousands of Macedonians.How does a master historian like you explain that?

TheMacedonian

05-27-2008, 01:30 AM

^Thats besides the point einstein, Alexander fought greeks and believed them to be barbaric intruders

There are many quotes proving this.

Good luck to you in life romanoi

PhiliptheUniterchaeronea

05-27-2008, 02:14 AM

^Thats besides the point einstein, Alexander fought greeks and believed them to be barbaric intruders

There are many quotes proving this.

Good luck to you in life romanoi

Please enlighten us Obi Wan.

Andrew

05-27-2008, 07:26 AM

^He actually fought greeks, so much for your theory :D

Long live Makedonija free of greeks!

The guy is retarted !!!!!!

chicagogeorge

05-27-2008, 02:10 PM

^Thats besides the point einstein, Alexander fought greeks and believed them to be barbaric intruders

There are many quotes proving this.

Good luck to you in life romanoi

Take your medication please!

"...he (Alexander) inflicted punishment on the Persians for their outrages on all the Greeks, and how he delivered us all from the greatest evils by enslaving the barbarians and depriving them of the resources they used for the destruction of the Greeks, pitting now the Athenians and now the Thebans against the ancestors of these Spartans, how in a word he made Asia subject to Greece."

Polybius, Book IX, 34, 3

Spartan

05-27-2008, 07:44 PM

^He actually fought greeks, so much for your theory :D

Long live Makedonija free of greeks!

Before trying to argue using quotes and sources you don't understand the context of why don't you try to educate yourself on Ancient Greek history!

Let's keep this simple!

ALL GREEKS FOUGHT EACH OTHER FOR SUPREMACY OR HEGEMONY OVER ALL THE OTHER GREEKS! Sorry for all the caps but it is the only way I feel the point can be made.

So does that make the Athenians or the Spartans non-Greek, after all the fought each other for many years.

Understand the history before trying to use it to formulate an argument!

gmellos

06-23-2008, 05:29 PM

Greeks of Macedonia came from Turkey, we Macedonians however have been there since the dawn of time. Questions?
yeah you have been in the Balkans since 600 AD!!! If you have any indeginous
blood it is Thracian, Illyrian, or Paoinan!!!

gmellos

06-24-2008, 01:31 PM

I quess you've decided to not reply to me!

Ptolemy

10-26-2008, 09:45 AM

THE ARNAIZ-VILLENA CONTROVERY EXPLAINED FOR NON-GENETICISTS (http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/10/26/the-arnaiz-villena-controvery-explained-for-non-geneticists/)

When one studies genetics at a population level, one should not use one gene as a comparator. By doing so, they are using biased methods that will lead to misleading results. By chance, one gene may be similar between two totally different populations – simply BY CHANCE. One has to analyze MANY genes in order to link populations.

What did Arnaiz-Villena and his Skopjean partners do?

Well one way to simplify their analysis is the following: If we imagine that populations are animals, and if we analyze how similar they are one from another, we can understand how flawed Arnaiz-Villena’s analysis really is. Let’s say that FYROMians are tigers, Greeks are elephants, Ethiopians are dolphins, and other Europeans are various four legged land mammals. According to Arnaiz-Villena and his colleagues:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/arnaiz12.jpg

But elephants are like dolphins…

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/technotut/arnaiz13.jpg

You can see how ridiculous this logic is. In reality, elephants are closer to other land mammals because they live on land, have four legs, and don’t have a blowhole. But if one were to only look at the colour gray, then he/she can make the assumption that elephants are closer to dolphins!

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/10/26/the-arnaiz-villena-theory-another-skopjean-myth-exposed-and-explained/

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/10/26/the-arnaiz-villena-theory-another-skopjean-myth-exposed-and-explained-part-ii/

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/10/26/the-arnaiz-villena-controvery-explained-for-non-geneticists/