Ptolemy
06-28-2006, 06:41 AM
Actually this text and the reply came to me from a mail of a greek gal that requested to post it in the forum in response to a text posted here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/507909/thread/1151454243/last-1151454243/Macedonians+v.+the+so+called+%26quot%3BGreek-Macedonian%26quot%3B+Ideal.
The reply was written by a friend of her as she said. So here we are.
It has come to many people's attention, especially Macedonians' attention, that some individuals have been refering to themselves as "Greek-Macedonian". This term is thrown around by "Greeks" of Macedonia and some Macedonians of "Greece". But, how long have these people been using this term "Greek-Macedonian"? Why are they using it? And, finally, what
does it mean? It is my intention to address these questions and the issues facing "Greek-Macedonians" as a result.
So, what is a "Greek-Macedonian"? Well, it all depends on whom is using the term and whose perception you are analyzing. From a logically indisputable standpoint, a "Greek-Macedonian" is exactly what an "Iranian-American" or "French-Canadian" is - an individual of a mixed background. This "mixed background" can be characterized in a few ways - 1) Having both "Greek" and Macedonian parents 2) Being born in "Greece" but are of an ethnic Macedonian background 3) Or, being born in Macedonia but are of a "Greek" ethnic background.
It is obvious Mr Epoch that you are not aware of the obvious ....A Macedonian Greek , or a Greek Macedonian , is clearly the same = a Greek , living in the geographical area of Macedonia ... As it is exactly the case of the Iranian living in USA , as it is exactly the case of the French living in Canada ..
Hence, we have two politically oriented identifications and one ethnic identification. However, there is one issue - when the "Greeks" of Macedonia, whom consider themselves, through self-identification,
WRONG Mr epoch... The indentification is a result of language spoken and written ..
ONLY "Greeks" ethnically are identifiying themselves in a "Greek-Macedonian" manner, which causes confusion for individuals whom are ethnically both through their parents.
Maybe this is because most people do NOT know history .. So they cannot understad why , for example the Athenians were ALSO Greeks and the Achaeans were ALSO Greeks.. Also Aetolians were Greeks , Lakedaemonians were Greeks too , Epirotes were Greeks, Thebeans were Greeks too , Macedonians were Greeks too , for that matter .. Probably you are confused cause of lyour lack of Greek History knowledge , but its ok ... no problem. We have a great understanding ..
Hence, they are using this term "Greek-Macedonian" in a political
sense as they are FIRST "Greek" ethnically and SECOND from Macedonia (geographically located).
At last .... Correct .
Logically, to identify ethnically as a "Greek-Macedonian" one must have parents of both Macedonian ethnicity and of "Greek" ethnicity (i.e. Dad is Macedonian and Mom is "Greek").
Who says that ?? So IF if my father is an Spartan and my mom is from Epirus , what is the difference ?? I am a greek all the way because they are Greeks too .. What you say , applies ONLY for people with different nationalities , for example a Turk and a Bulgarian ...
It is comical to assume that my dad is a Macedonian and my mom is from Sparta and i am considered Macedonian , but i live in Athens ... The logic of the un-logical ...
Now, this is not very confusing once you know why people are using this term so when you hear someone call themselves "Greek-Macedonian" you must ask them whether they are politically located in Macedonia or whether their parents are of a mixed stock.
Wrong again ... IF a Greek calls himself Greek-Macedonian , clearly identifies him as a Greek living in Macedonia ... His parentage is of no importance ... as long as he is a Greek .
To do this one must ask for their ethnicity - Are you a "Greek" of Macedonia? Are you a Macedonian of "Greece"? Or, are you a real, ethnic, "Greek-Macedonian". In my opinion, "Greek-Macedonian" should ONLY be used by ethniclly "Greek" and Macedonian individuals. However, because of the current political division of Macedonia you can understand why individuals of ALL three orientations, in some cases, identify themselves as such.
Wrong again... The question is : Are you a Greek ??? or Are you a Slav ?? followed by the question .. Where do you live ??
It does not matter at all what Greek "tribe" were your parents .. i mentioned some , above . For example you will never ask some Greek : Are you Greek-Athenian , or Greek Spartan ?? That is completely irrational . The question is Are you a Greek , and IF yes , where do you live .. Nothing else .
Your , "mistake" starts from the point where you assume that Macedonians , Aechaeans , Lakedemonians ... etc . were different with Greeks ... For your info , they were NOT . They were ALL of them Greeks .
So, when did this term come about? This is a good question - If someone was using the term to identify themselves, ethnically, as a result of mixed parents, it can be said that they have been using this term for, I would say, 100 years - I must note, however, that in most cases individuals did NOT use this identification even if they were of that background as,
in most world languages, an identification for the "Greeks" from Macedonia as
"Greek-Macedonian" has been non-existant - as, they are "Greeks" from Macedonia. This term became more popular, however, very recently - i.e. the past 15 years (possibly a little bit longer). This term has become popular among individuals of a "Greek" ethnic background whom came to Macedonia during the population exchanges of the 1920s between Turkey and "Greece"
and, to a certain extent, "Greece" and Bulgaria.
Assumptions based on a wrong base , are also wrong .
All the world for 2 thousand of years ,at least considers the term Greeks from Macedonia , as the only correct one . As they say Greeks from any part of the Greek Peninsula ...make your choise ... As for example Aetolians .. The rest of your examples , are , sorry but trully , completely un-historical .
Hence, after some generations, Macedonian'ness, through a few years of relationship with the land, has become popular among
them. So, when one identifies as a "Greek-Macedonian" one of the first things you should think of is either an ethnic "Greek" of Macedonia who came to the region in the 1920s or an ethnic Macedonian whom by virtue of the political boundry changes of 1912 & 1913, are now "Greek" citizens. One must only ask that individual the question for clarification.
The only question to ask is that if these people are refugees or not , as their Greekness is proved beyond any doubt .. And after 80 years of living in Macedonia , yes . They are Greek Macedonians ..
Ethnic Macedonians , simply do not exist . It is either Slavs , living in Macedonia being fron Bulgarian origin , or Serbian , or any other ethnicity , as Albanians , .... or ... Greeks .
Finally, to sum up, it is clear that a "Greek-Macedonian" self-identifies as such for one (or more) of the three logical reasons that have been provided.
Sorry , but you commited the MOST logical one ...
This term became popular among ethnic "Greeks" who came to the region in the 1920s or beyond through virtue of population exchanges between "Greece" and Turkey.
Nope... wrong again ... The term , or such a term , was ALWAYS popular in Greece .. IF you ask a Greek in Athens :What are you , he will always say that i am a Pelloponesean , and after that he will say : Greek of course ..
But , i suggest to read more History ..
When someone uses this term, be aware of the reasons he/she may use it and keep in mind that the only ETHNIC "Greek-Macedonian" is the one whose parents are of a mixed background. Other than that, it must be a political (state/provincial/regional) relationship. There is a reason most of the world languages do not carry this term in their vocabulary.....however, there is a reason you should; why you should know this term and be aware of its usage.
Most languages compared with the Greek language , are considered poor and primitive . So there is no wonder why people cant understand a simple truth ...
The Greeks lived everywhere , in the Greek Peninsula , and still live here ...
In the Balcans , there are few ethicities , like Greeks , Turks , Albanians , Serbians , Bulgarians , and some others , but NO Macedonians ... This ethnicity , never existed as it is a technical construction . The area before the WW2 was called Vardarska Banovina ... and this is its true name ...
Respectfully,
Epoch
:headbonk:
Ehmm what should i add more to that than...reading some texts from skops i fully understand Lec's famous remark "Every now and then you meet someone whose ignorance is encyclopedic" :laugh:
The reply was written by a friend of her as she said. So here we are.
It has come to many people's attention, especially Macedonians' attention, that some individuals have been refering to themselves as "Greek-Macedonian". This term is thrown around by "Greeks" of Macedonia and some Macedonians of "Greece". But, how long have these people been using this term "Greek-Macedonian"? Why are they using it? And, finally, what
does it mean? It is my intention to address these questions and the issues facing "Greek-Macedonians" as a result.
So, what is a "Greek-Macedonian"? Well, it all depends on whom is using the term and whose perception you are analyzing. From a logically indisputable standpoint, a "Greek-Macedonian" is exactly what an "Iranian-American" or "French-Canadian" is - an individual of a mixed background. This "mixed background" can be characterized in a few ways - 1) Having both "Greek" and Macedonian parents 2) Being born in "Greece" but are of an ethnic Macedonian background 3) Or, being born in Macedonia but are of a "Greek" ethnic background.
It is obvious Mr Epoch that you are not aware of the obvious ....A Macedonian Greek , or a Greek Macedonian , is clearly the same = a Greek , living in the geographical area of Macedonia ... As it is exactly the case of the Iranian living in USA , as it is exactly the case of the French living in Canada ..
Hence, we have two politically oriented identifications and one ethnic identification. However, there is one issue - when the "Greeks" of Macedonia, whom consider themselves, through self-identification,
WRONG Mr epoch... The indentification is a result of language spoken and written ..
ONLY "Greeks" ethnically are identifiying themselves in a "Greek-Macedonian" manner, which causes confusion for individuals whom are ethnically both through their parents.
Maybe this is because most people do NOT know history .. So they cannot understad why , for example the Athenians were ALSO Greeks and the Achaeans were ALSO Greeks.. Also Aetolians were Greeks , Lakedaemonians were Greeks too , Epirotes were Greeks, Thebeans were Greeks too , Macedonians were Greeks too , for that matter .. Probably you are confused cause of lyour lack of Greek History knowledge , but its ok ... no problem. We have a great understanding ..
Hence, they are using this term "Greek-Macedonian" in a political
sense as they are FIRST "Greek" ethnically and SECOND from Macedonia (geographically located).
At last .... Correct .
Logically, to identify ethnically as a "Greek-Macedonian" one must have parents of both Macedonian ethnicity and of "Greek" ethnicity (i.e. Dad is Macedonian and Mom is "Greek").
Who says that ?? So IF if my father is an Spartan and my mom is from Epirus , what is the difference ?? I am a greek all the way because they are Greeks too .. What you say , applies ONLY for people with different nationalities , for example a Turk and a Bulgarian ...
It is comical to assume that my dad is a Macedonian and my mom is from Sparta and i am considered Macedonian , but i live in Athens ... The logic of the un-logical ...
Now, this is not very confusing once you know why people are using this term so when you hear someone call themselves "Greek-Macedonian" you must ask them whether they are politically located in Macedonia or whether their parents are of a mixed stock.
Wrong again ... IF a Greek calls himself Greek-Macedonian , clearly identifies him as a Greek living in Macedonia ... His parentage is of no importance ... as long as he is a Greek .
To do this one must ask for their ethnicity - Are you a "Greek" of Macedonia? Are you a Macedonian of "Greece"? Or, are you a real, ethnic, "Greek-Macedonian". In my opinion, "Greek-Macedonian" should ONLY be used by ethniclly "Greek" and Macedonian individuals. However, because of the current political division of Macedonia you can understand why individuals of ALL three orientations, in some cases, identify themselves as such.
Wrong again... The question is : Are you a Greek ??? or Are you a Slav ?? followed by the question .. Where do you live ??
It does not matter at all what Greek "tribe" were your parents .. i mentioned some , above . For example you will never ask some Greek : Are you Greek-Athenian , or Greek Spartan ?? That is completely irrational . The question is Are you a Greek , and IF yes , where do you live .. Nothing else .
Your , "mistake" starts from the point where you assume that Macedonians , Aechaeans , Lakedemonians ... etc . were different with Greeks ... For your info , they were NOT . They were ALL of them Greeks .
So, when did this term come about? This is a good question - If someone was using the term to identify themselves, ethnically, as a result of mixed parents, it can be said that they have been using this term for, I would say, 100 years - I must note, however, that in most cases individuals did NOT use this identification even if they were of that background as,
in most world languages, an identification for the "Greeks" from Macedonia as
"Greek-Macedonian" has been non-existant - as, they are "Greeks" from Macedonia. This term became more popular, however, very recently - i.e. the past 15 years (possibly a little bit longer). This term has become popular among individuals of a "Greek" ethnic background whom came to Macedonia during the population exchanges of the 1920s between Turkey and "Greece"
and, to a certain extent, "Greece" and Bulgaria.
Assumptions based on a wrong base , are also wrong .
All the world for 2 thousand of years ,at least considers the term Greeks from Macedonia , as the only correct one . As they say Greeks from any part of the Greek Peninsula ...make your choise ... As for example Aetolians .. The rest of your examples , are , sorry but trully , completely un-historical .
Hence, after some generations, Macedonian'ness, through a few years of relationship with the land, has become popular among
them. So, when one identifies as a "Greek-Macedonian" one of the first things you should think of is either an ethnic "Greek" of Macedonia who came to the region in the 1920s or an ethnic Macedonian whom by virtue of the political boundry changes of 1912 & 1913, are now "Greek" citizens. One must only ask that individual the question for clarification.
The only question to ask is that if these people are refugees or not , as their Greekness is proved beyond any doubt .. And after 80 years of living in Macedonia , yes . They are Greek Macedonians ..
Ethnic Macedonians , simply do not exist . It is either Slavs , living in Macedonia being fron Bulgarian origin , or Serbian , or any other ethnicity , as Albanians , .... or ... Greeks .
Finally, to sum up, it is clear that a "Greek-Macedonian" self-identifies as such for one (or more) of the three logical reasons that have been provided.
Sorry , but you commited the MOST logical one ...
This term became popular among ethnic "Greeks" who came to the region in the 1920s or beyond through virtue of population exchanges between "Greece" and Turkey.
Nope... wrong again ... The term , or such a term , was ALWAYS popular in Greece .. IF you ask a Greek in Athens :What are you , he will always say that i am a Pelloponesean , and after that he will say : Greek of course ..
But , i suggest to read more History ..
When someone uses this term, be aware of the reasons he/she may use it and keep in mind that the only ETHNIC "Greek-Macedonian" is the one whose parents are of a mixed background. Other than that, it must be a political (state/provincial/regional) relationship. There is a reason most of the world languages do not carry this term in their vocabulary.....however, there is a reason you should; why you should know this term and be aware of its usage.
Most languages compared with the Greek language , are considered poor and primitive . So there is no wonder why people cant understand a simple truth ...
The Greeks lived everywhere , in the Greek Peninsula , and still live here ...
In the Balcans , there are few ethicities , like Greeks , Turks , Albanians , Serbians , Bulgarians , and some others , but NO Macedonians ... This ethnicity , never existed as it is a technical construction . The area before the WW2 was called Vardarska Banovina ... and this is its true name ...
Respectfully,
Epoch
:headbonk:
Ehmm what should i add more to that than...reading some texts from skops i fully understand Lec's famous remark "Every now and then you meet someone whose ignorance is encyclopedic" :laugh: