ALBANIANS AND GREEKS (The Times)

[TirAlb]

ALBANIANS AND GREEKS.

(FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDENT.)
CONSTANTlNOPLE, Nov. 15.
The last three months have been marked by an increase of the tension between Greeks| and Albanians in Epirus and in the Macedonian district of lioritza. For this the policy of the (Ecumenical Patriarchate is largely respon- sible. On the proclamation of the Constitution in Macedonia, the Albanians of the southern and central districts were induced to join the Young Turks by the promise that, among other things, the use of their language would be per- rnitted in Government and private schools. The efforts of Albarian patriots, mostly Moslems vho belonged to influential Tosk and Lyap families, to promote unity and progress among their compatriots by means of an educational and literary propaganda had been sternly repressed by Sultan Abdul Hamid. The Sultan saw danger in any movement that aimed at the conversion of the Arnauts from freebooters and swashbucklers into norrnal citizens with aspirations towards better government, and, possibly, with Nationalist leanings. Ag-ain. while the majority of the Albanian leaders were Moslems, the teaclhers in Albanian schools were, as a rule, Christians. That Christians and Moslems should work in harmony together added to the alarm of Yildiz.

POLICY OF THE PATRIARCHATE

The (Ecumenical Patriarchate seconded the Sultan's efforts. Many of the clhildren who frequented the 41banian schools wvere of the Orthodox faith That Orthodox Patriarehist children should receive instruction through any but a Greek medium. Uiat thev should be encouraged to call themselves "Shkyipetar - (Albanian) and not Greek, was bitterly resented by the leaders of a Church which, for the last three generations, has tended to become more and more a mere machmie for the imposition of "IHellenism" on non-Hellenes. Christians were denounced, excommunicated, and threat- ened by order of the Patriarchate. 3Moslems and Clhristians were banished and imprisoned by order of Yildiz, and bv 1908 the two despots had succeeded in closing every Albanian school save one at Koritza, which -was kept open by the courage of an Albanian schoolmistress and the influence of American missionaries supported by their Ambassador. The revolution, thereforo, found most intelli- gent Albanians by no means friendly to the Greeks. At KIoritza the Albanian party revived the more rapidly, since its programme was based on a rapprochemernt between Christians and MIoslems, and since it had but one murder, that of the PatriarchistR Bishop of Koritza, to its discredit. The Hellenizing section, small in numbers, but in receipt of large Greek subsidies, kept quiet and -was not molested until early in September, when an "anti-Albanizing" demonstration by some of its members led to an exlchange of revolver shots between Yanni Dardas, its leader, and Ferid Bey, an "Albaniz- ing" notable, both of whom were wounded. About the same time the Greek priest of Neco- van, where the local authorities had forced the Patriarchists to allow an Albanian priest to conduct Divine service in Albanian on alternate Sundays, seized the church and, aided by his brother and a chorister, bludgeoned his rival wlhen he appeared to remonstrate. The Albanian, whose predecessor had been assaqsinated by the Greeks for translating the Greek liturgy into his mother tongue, drewv a revolver as he lay on the ground, shot the priest, and severely wounded his companions. This incident did muchI to exasperate both parties in the Koritza district.

EVENTS IN EPIRUS.

In Epirus M.L Rali's most inopportune tour lest autumn resulted in an outburst of Helleniic fervour and a corresponding increase of activity on the part of the Christian and Moslem Albanians. The Bek-tashi sect joined in this movement. Albanian clubs and schools were founded in several centres and assassinations and brawls attested the growth of party spirit. A certain Rromida, a Greek ex-brigand, who had shot a gendarme, formed a band. Tle chief exploit of this band, the murder and mutilation of seven Jewish cattle-dealers of Prevesa, was described as "rather harsh - in an otherwise exculpatory article by the leading Thessalian journal. The same journal shortly afterwards celebrated Kromida's acquittal by a Greek Court on a charge, preferred by the Turkish authorities, of having kidnapped a "Rumanizing" llach of Metsovo, whom he killed in cold blood on the Greek side of the border. Thus the excitement caused among Albanians by his recent preparations to invade Epirus with his band is comprehensible enough. The Patriarchate can still maintain its hold on the spiritual allegiance of the 250,000 Orthodox Albanians by permitting the use in their schools and churhees of the Albanian language. Such a concession would do much to improve the relations between Albanian and Greek, but the past history of the Patriarch- ate does not afford mnch support to the hope that it will be granted. Otherwise events seem to point to the formation at no very distant date of an "autocephalous" Albanian Church and to the growth in Epirms and the Koritza district of a strong Moslem and Christian opposi- tion, not only to the Patriarchate, but to Greek influence, under whatever form it may manifest itself.

The Times | November 25, 1909

[chicagogeorge]

We all know that many Albanian Orthodox in Epirus, in time, were assimilated with the Greeks, but that does not negate the fact that Greeks were the majority in Epirus, both statistically and culturally.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5010/southernquarterlyepirusus5.jpg

[Grace]

what's the background on these two guys? read the entire article George, this guy is far from objective. Even he admits that they are 300,000 Greek Orthodox (that is not Greek as we now it!) and then he goes how "Mohamedans" did this and that so the Southern Christians deserve to be with Greece because they will not be treated fairly and don't deserve to be with the "savage North." (ironically, they didn't have an Ali Pasha to subdue them and open commerce)
What then should be done with Albania?
Should there be an independent Albania?
We believe that there should be an independent Albania.
But this new state should consist of only the Mussulman Albanians,
who are in the large majority — namely, 1,100,000 as
against 390,000 Christians.
The Greek Orthodox Albanians to the south should be
included in Greece, as by culture, religion, and in feeling the
Christian Albanians to Durazzo are more Greeks than Albanians.
The Catholics to the north, 100,000 of them, should
be left autonomous. Thus we should have an homogeneous
Albania of 1,100,000 people, administered by the Great
Powers.
This scheme will at least eliminate the religious difficulties.
And to those who believe that Christians and Mussulmans
can live together at peace in the New Albania, we wish to say
that they have not known the Mussulmans.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aWICAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=banca+of+corytza&source=web&ots=7Zt2qR0gnm&sig=Dm399jzT7m1OsGsaC_y2SGKBlUk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA301,M1

Basically they are arguing that the North is savage because they are like the Suli, they accepted no submission (and the civilization that would have come with it) While Suli was a small island of rebellion, the entire North was 'self managed' and nothing penetrated so they stayed in the dark for centuries.

The reason you see no Albanian churches was that there no Albanian Orthodox Church, and of course, Turks and Greeks conspired to block Albanian language from being taught. All this tells me that Greece, having way more money than Albanians, tried to hellenize the region hoping to get it. Given that all those heroes and folklore has been adopted I can see why Greeks want it ;)

Here's another source:

It is only by including within the limits of a free Albania all the lands inhabited by the Albanian race, the populous region of Prisrend and Djakova, as well as, the more civilised province of Epirus, that a worthy future can be assured to her. The question begging name of "Old Servia" settles no titles, while the Greek claim to Epirus rests on no better foundation than the confusion of the terms Greek and Orthodox.
http://books.google.com/books?id=BflmngGPO_wC&pg=PA281&dq=claim+to+Epirus+rests+on+no+better+foundation+t han+the+confusion+of+the+terms+Greek+and+Orthodox

BTW: 50% of Albanian speak Italian and English as well now. Are we Albanian or ...?

[chicagogeorge]

what's the background on these two guys? read the entire article George, this guy is far from objective. ...

Is this Parliamentary essay from 1879 also far from objective??

UK Parliamentary Paper in 1879 on Epirus:


http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8522/parliementarypapersepirxk3.jpg

...

Here's another source:


http://books.google.com/books?id=BflmngGPO_wC&pg=PA281&dq=claim+to+Epirus+rests+on+no+better+foundation+t han+the+confusion+of+the+terms+Greek+and+Orthodox

BTW: 50% of Albanian speak Italian and English as well now. Are we Albanian or ...?

From your source Noel basically says that the Albanians who lived in Epirus, were mainly Orthodox, and culturally aligned witht the Greeks but he does seem to get it dead wrong about the language of the region. Greek was the principle language not only of the Greeks in Epirus, but it was also the language of commerce for the Turks, and most Albanians (both Orthodox and Mulsim). Ali Pasha used Greek in his court!


All this tells me that Greece, having way more money than Albanians[B], tried to hellenize the region hoping to get it. Given that all those heroes and folklore has been adopted I can see why Greeks want it ;)



Grace we didn't have to Hellenize Epirus, the Greeks that lived there were Hellenic, and so were most of the Albanians....

[TirAlb]

Basically here you have the answers,in the article i posted before.But please find smth else next time,the language used in that book,is enough to make it unreliable.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9942/17582773sw6.jpg

The (Ecumenical Patriarchate seconded the Sultan's efforts. Many of the clhildren who frequented the 41banian schools wvere of the Orthodox faith That Orthodox Patriarehist children should receive instruction through any but a Greek medium. Uiat thev should be encouraged to call themselves "Shkyipetar - (Albanian) and not Greek, was bitterly resented by the leaders of a Church which, for the last three generations, has tended to become more and more a mere machmie for the imposition of "IHellenism" on non-Hellenes. Christians were denounced, excommunicated, and threat- ened by order of the Patriarchate. 3Moslems and Clhristians were banished and imprisoned by order of Yildiz, and bv 1908 the two despots had succeeded in closing every Albanian school ...

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9594/78641550ck0.jpg

... save one at Koritza, which -was kept open by the courage of an Albanian schoolmistress and the influence of American missionaries supported by their Ambassador.

[TirAlb]

Is this Parliamentary essay from 1879 also far from objective??

UK Parliamentary Paper in 1879 on Epirus:


http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8522/parliementarypapersepirxk3.jpg


Obviously a post "Berlin Congress" document,famous among the other things for Bismarcs phrase:"An albanian nation doesn't exist"(or so),so absoluteli not objective.
Among the interesting things:
Epirus from Pindus to the North entirely Albanian,seacoast mixed and the rest(which rest btw) Greek.
Also the best part ever,Chams with become the mos ardent champions of Hellenism.Yes we saw how it ended.But what can i say,"thank's" UK.

[chicagogeorge]

Ok, let's see what you can say about this one:clap2:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1156/20006153im9.jpg

[Grace]

Greek was the principle language not only of the Greeks in Epirus, but it was also the language of commerce for the Turks, and most Albanians (both Orthodox and Mulsim). Ali Pasha used Greek in his court!


Ali Pasha used it and so did the Turks, but you must distinguish between using it and being Greek. It was the language of commerce so Albanians spoke it, just as me and you write in English, but I am Albanian and you are Greek. Ali Pasha used it to impress the ambasadors ;) On whether he was called King of Albanians or Epiriotes is irrelevant and this guy is dying to give Greeks more land. The fact that it was sent to the London parliament doesn't make it true. In fact he is hoping that everyone there Hellenizes.

Let's not forget the goodwill the modern Greeks had from the ancients ones and no one cared about Albania. All I see are his opinions and wishes. You had to know Greek and Albanians did, just as today they speak Italians, Greek and English. If I say or really think that I am Chinese, am I? This was a land grab and Greece and its friends had every reason to twist the facts.

Plus, here you go from Arta, Janina, and on the other post you mention Durres as well. As a side note: No 'patriotic' Greek will admit it but under Ali Pasha, for all the bad things, Greek language and culture flourished. He even allowed Greek schools and the new alphabet was refined.


Grace we didn't have to Hellenize Epirus, the Greeks that lived there were Hellenic, and so were most of the Albanians....
I was talking about the rush before the border settling. We aren't that dumb ;)

[chicagogeorge]

Ok, Grace, in the face of massive evidence, you continue to defy logic. I will not sit here and tell you that Albanians, did not live in Epirus, but how can you tell me that the Albanians, formed the majority of the region, when even in Southern Albania as recently as 20 years ago, a large portion of the population (if not the majority) was Greek?

Here is what my American brethren said back in 1882 about Epirus and their freedom from Ottoman Rule.... :) Basically, the first paragraph is the important one, which tells us how the Epirotes felt as a result of the "new borders".

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5870/1883usforeignrelationseyk2.jpg

[Grace]

George, George, George:
First, once again you're lumping all in one "Epiriotes."
Second, there was NO ALBANIA, so even if it's true that "many" were upset, they were upset at being left with Turkey. The choice was Turkey or Greece, not Greece or Albania.


Yes, those Suli Albanians were great fighters and so where the mostly soldiers of Ali Pasha who fought the Sultan (Kurdish Pasha ?) for over a year. FYI: Muslims were called Epiriotes as well.

when even in Southern Albania as recently as 20 years ago, a large portion of the population (if not the majority) was Greek?

Huh??? You must be smoking something. I am sure that most Southern Albanians would accept a Greek pension and an EU passport, but that's doesn't make them Greek. if you include ALL Orthodox (Albanians, Vlachs and Greeks,) than it is a substantial portion.

[chicagogeorge]

and an interesting observation on the quality and purity of the Greek spoken in Epirus as compared to the rest of Greece in 1816:)


http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3686/memoirsoftheionianislanik9.jpg

[Grace]

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.

http://www.southeasteurope.org/documents/0009albminorities.pdf

George read this on minorities.

Actually, there are 3 thousand inhabitants in Himare, and only a very small
number belong to the Greek minority. Almost half the population of Himare has
moved to Greece, especially young people and children. The 8-year school of the
town had about 100 pupils in 1990, while presently there are only 20 pupils in it.
Lastly, it is worth being mentioned that, like in the other areas of the Greek
minority in Himare, too, the Greek government gives pensions to the elderly
people. Many people, who were interviewed by our team, confirmed that, owing to
pragmatic reasons, they have accepted such a financial contribution, though they
do not feel that they belong to the Greek minority.

Quick point: the real Greeks in Dropull are actually hard working and hospitable people. The phony ones, the Himariotes are the trouble maker$. While they speak Greek with an accent, their culture, musical instruments and all come from Laberia. Their ancestors who are now in Italy still speak Albanian. Google
Piana degli Albanesi
Ironically the Greek government cares about Himara and Dhermi. Geopolitical reasons? Plus, 80% of Greeks are in Greece now anyway. As Albania joins EU maybe they'll move back along with 200,000 Chams in Chameria (if Turkey gets in EU many Chams who got sent there might move back to Greece too)

[kostas68]

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.

http://www.southeasteurope.org/documents/0009albminorities.pdf

George read this on minorities.
Quote:
<Actually, there are 3 thousand inhabitants in Himare, and only a very small
number belong to the Greek minority. Almost half the population of Himare has
moved to Greece, especially young people and children. The 8-year school of the town had about 100 pupils in 1990, while presently there are only 20 pupils in it.Lastly, it is worth being mentioned that, like in the other areas of the Greek minority in Himare, too, the Greek government gives pensions to the elderly people.Many people,who were interviewed by our team,confirmed that,owing to pragmatic reasons,they have accepted such a financial contribution,though they do not feel that they belong to the Greek minority>.

Quick point: the real Greeks in Dropull are actually hard working and hospitable people. The phony ones, the Himariotes are the trouble maker$. While they speak Greek with an accent, their culture, musical instruments and all come from Laberia. Their ancestors who are now in Italy still speak Albanian. Google
Piana degli Albanesi
Ironically the Greek government cares about Himara and Dhermi. Geopolitical reasons? Plus, 80% of Greeks are in Greece now anyway. As Albania joins EU maybe they'll move back along with 200,000 Chams in Chameria (if Turkey gets in EU many Chams who got sent there might move back to Greece too)

You quoted this text from the report “ON THE STATUS OF THE MINORITIES
IN THE REPUBLIC OF ALBANIA”.We read in the first page:<Under the direct auspices of the Albanian Helsinki Committee, from September
1999 to September 2000, an intensive work was carried out for the realization of the project “On the status of the minorities in the Republic of Albania”.This project was financed by the Finnish Foundation ‘KIOS’, “Finnish NGO Foundation for Human Rights”.The fact-finding teams for each mission consisted of three to five persons, among them members of the Albanian Helsinki Committee, journalists, university teachers, students, individuals from the above -mentioned minorities in Albania,etc.>
Why should we believe an Albanian report?What has Greece to gain by pensioning some Albanians in Himara?If it was true,they would be very stupid if they confessed that they pretend to be Greeks.
We read also in page 5 of the same report that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays.> and in page 6 <Remaining isolated by the Turkish Empire, especially in the 18-th and 19-th centuries, the people of Himara established close ties and developed an intensive trade with some Greek towns.It is mentioned that from this time, in addition to their mother tongue, the locals started to learn Greek language as well......During the communist regime (1945-1990), schools in Greek language were opened in all the areas where the
Greek minority lived, but such schools were never opened in Himare, on the
ground that the Greek minority did not exist there>.
I see a systematic Albanian atempt to deny or underestimate the Greek presence in Himara.This attempt starts with the claim that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays>.Off course,never existed there a town with the name Chaonia.Chaonia was named the region,after the Greek tribe of Chaones,but the town was called in ancient time Himaira,a Greek name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himar%C3%AB#Name

[chicagogeorge]

Ali Pasha had schools and the Greek Church was more active than in other areas, so that explains it.


No that doesn't explain it. Do you mean to tell me that their were no Greek schools and no Greek church in Thessaloniki, Athens, Thessaly, the Peloponese, Istanbul where the Phanar is? The document clearly states that they spoke a Greek, that was more pure in Epirus than other parts of Greece including the seven islands, because there were fewer loan or foreign words from other languages;)

Here is another two sources which says the same exact thing. One from 1854 (during Ali Pasha's era) and the other from 1911.....

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5523/ioanninagreekcp2.jpg

[chicagogeorge]

and since we are on the subject of Greeks and Albanians in Epirus during the late 19th and early 20th centuries......:)


http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3134/thefrontiersoflanguage2ed0.jpg

[Grace]

yeah keep posting from phillo hellenes, I'm totally buying it. Every orthodox is Greek, as is Vasil Bollano. This guy even sounds so scholarly especially when he mentions that Bocari, Xhavela etc were Greek.

When I read literature from late 1800's it's sickening how Greece, Serbia and Montenegro started to devour Albanian lands, truly sickening. Thank God Serbia is paying for it, and MN with 600,000 people will soon.

[Grace]

Why should we believe an Albanian report?What has Greece to gain by pensioning some Albanians in Himara?If it was true,they would be very stupid if they confessed that they pretend to be Greeks.


If you get Greek $$ may mean more minorities in census = more Greek schools, hellenization; get it ready for "Vorio Epirus." Your church is very nice like that and that's why Albanians might never get along with Greeks. Greeks seem never satisfied. This issue of getting paid is real, more than one source mentions it.

Albanian TV showed how Bastardnollanos made Albanian names into Greek as well to the shock of the people named. Their songs, traditions etc are Albanians as well.

From Ardian Vehbiu, not an Alb nationalist, quite the opposite actually
Besides dialectology, the folkloric evidence as well speaks for quite definite ethnic-Albanian roots in the area: folk songs, and sung rituals (associated to weddings, death and burial ceremonies etc.) are clearly and typically Albanian: besides the text, their musical characteristics leave no room to doubt: theatrical polyphony (with different roles for different singers within the group), lack of musical or percussion instruments, pentatonic scales employed, etc. Musically, Himara goes with the rest of Laberia, and it is very hard to believe that Greek "autochtones" came to forget their own songs and traditions, abandon their musical instruments, and adopt a culture they have always looked upon as inferior. As a further argument for this might serve the simple fact that there are in Albania examples of Greek influence on folk culture, p.e. in the area of Permeti and, to a certain extent, in Myzeqe (tonalities, rhythms, and especially instruments employed).
http://members.aol.com/Plaku/himara.htm




We read also in page 5 of the same report that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays.> and in page 6 <Remaining isolated by the Turkish Empire, especially in the 18-th and 19-th centuries, the people of Himara established close ties and developed an intensive trade with some Greek towns.It is mentioned that from this time, in addition to their mother tongue, the locals started to learn Greek language as well......During the communist regime (1945-1990), schools in Greek language were opened in all the areas where the
Greek minority lived, but such schools were never opened in Himare, on the
ground that the Greek minority did not exist there>.
I see a systematic Albanian atempt to deny or underestimate the Greek presence in Himara.This attempt starts with the claim that <In ancient times, the coastal town of KAONIA was situated precisely where Himare lies nowadays>.Off course,never existed there a town with the name Chaonia.Chaonia was named the region,after the Greek tribe of Chaones,but the town was called in ancient time Himaira,a Greek name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himar%C3%AB#Name


who was what 2000 years ago is irrelevant, honestly, especially names. (Alexandria?) People move, come and go. We know Himariotes: their names as stradioti were Gjipal, Zef etc etc. Staunch Albanian catholics names from Mirdita and Kruja. Greece is using them to start trouble and Himariotes want the coastland, saying they own everything, mountains included. Most Greeks are in Dropull and only old people have remained and they have all the rights, non-Greeks lack in Greece (not to mention that we haven't expelled them ala-Cham)

[chicagogeorge]

yeah keep posting from phillo hellenes, I'm totally buying it. Every orthodox is Greek, as is Vasil Bollano. This guy even sounds so scholarly especially when he mentions that Bocari, Xhavela etc were Greek.


So every independent westerner to you who reported the facts on the ground was a Philhellene to you:clapping:

Botsaris and Tsavelas were Greeks as they considered themselves. Fact.




When I read literature from late 1800's it's sickening how Greece, Serbia and Montenegro started to devour Albanian lands, truly sickening. Thank God Serbia is paying for it, and MN with 600,000 people will soon.

When I read modern day Albanian nationalist websites that try to claim lands that historically never belonged to them (especially with regards to Epirus as every ancient source calls it Greek NEVER ALBANIAN OR ILLYRIAN) by making up absurd lineages to Pelasgians :clapping:so that in some way they would have an older historical claim or what not makes me even more sick:mad:

this passage from Aristotle must really get under Albanian nationalist's skin:clapping: How much more clear can the message be? Epirus is ancient Hellas even to Aristotle:clapping:

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

and later on he says:

"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

[chicagogeorge]

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9231/popularmonthlyepirus188pu4.jpg

[Flipper]

Hellenism.Yes we saw how it ended.But what can i say,"thank's" UK.

Have you ever thought what would happen if Greece had lost WWII against Italy and Bulgaria? You would simply not exist as a free country.

Have you ever thought what would happen if the UK didn't insist on giving you northern Epirus? It would be an idependent state.

You're lucky and we're lucky that the Axis didn't make it TirALb. Think about it, cause you're not a wacko for sure.

Instead of glorifying compatriots of yours that fought on our side and gave you a free Albania, you still pick the Chams like if they're some national saviours.

[TirAlb]

Have you ever thought what would happen if Greece had lost WWII against Italy and Bulgaria? You would simply not exist as a free country.


But Flipper you losed against Italy and Bulgaria, yeah, an honourable defeat mostly because of the German intervention, but still a defeat. And don't forget that the outcome of WW2 wasn't that favourable for us, 50 years of communist rule isn't exactly freedom.

Have you ever thought what would happen if the UK didn't insist on giving you northern Epirus? It would be an idependent state.

I don' think it was Britain,but Woodrow Wilson in paris, and the question wasn't simply about NE but our very existence was questioned thanks to our neigbours.

You're lucky and we're lucky that the Axis didn't make it TirALb. Think about it, cause you're not a wacko for sure.Instead of glorifying compatriots of yours that fought on our side and gave you a free Albania, you still pick the Chams like if they're some national saviours.

I don't know if we are lucky Flipper , or who is the luckiest, i'm not able to judge things that way, things are more complicated than that and the conclusions always relative. I think that Nazism was pure evil, and their rout a good thing but, thats my personal opinion. For example i can't blame chams,because for them,the German invasion was actually a liberation, and you are wrong there, i dont se them as national saviours but as mere victims.

[kzk842]

For example i can't blame chams,because for them,the German invasion was actually a liberation, and you are wrong there, i dont se them as national saviours but as mere victims.

So based to your logic if Greece conquer North Epirus,it will be a liberation for the Greeks over there?
Please...you seem like a clever guy,what makes you believe that someone who collaborates with one of the most beastly conquerors(Nazi) of the 20th century can be counted as a victim?
The chams faced off the same thing with the Greeks that collaborate with the Nazis.

[chicagogeorge]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8468/theatlanticmonthlyepirusa2.jpg