FYROM Name Issue …. self-determination or territorial aspiration issue?

[akritas]

FYROM Slavmacedonians(leadership and people) claim that theirs nation has right to self-determination and this is true.

From the other side , Greece declared it had no claims on FYROM'S territory. Greece's only serious grievance was, and still is, the use by FYROM of the name "Macedonia" and its derivatives.

Greece presented her case as follows [1]:
Usurpation of Greece’s cultural and historical legacy.
Greece considers the use of the constitutional name ‘Macedonia’ as usurpation of a name belonging to Greek history and heritage, which, moreover, have nothing to do with the culture and legacy of the current inhabitants of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, who are descended from Slavs that settled in the region in the 6th century, long after the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia. The Macedonians of the Kingdom of Macedonia, instead, were Greeks, who spoke Greek and took part in the Olympic Games, which was a prerogative of Greeks and denied to all foreigners.
For Greece, this historical clarification is crucial, since the name issue is only the tip of the iceberg: in its opinion, the authorities of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” are engaging in a very dangerous exercise of rewriting history, which – more or less deliberately – encourages their citizens to believe they are descendants of the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia, that is of a non-Greek Macedonian ethnic group that settled in the region before the Slavs arrived. This rewriting of history extends to provocative gestures, such as the Gruevski government’s decision to rename Skopje airport ‘Alexander the Great’ in 2007, and numerous other initiatives which started with independence and have come thick and fast since 1997. Moreover, Greece considers “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” responsible for failing to discourage acts by private entities or individuals which could result in animosity, hostility and violence, including abroad.

Risk of leading to territorial claims.
For Greece, the ultimate risk in this type of process is that of opening the door to future territorial claims. It is well aware that “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” introduced constitutional amendments in 1992, explicitly renouncing all territorial claims against its neighbours. However, in its view, obfuscating certain historical facts, or even manipulating them in school or military contexts, may well spark a spirit of revenge among the general public. For example, Greece points out that many of the history and geography books1 (http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc08/EDOC11524.htm#P62_6204#P62_6204) used in schools and military academies treat “Macedonia” as a single ethnic and geographical entity. Part of that entity is said to have been partitioned between several states in the region - including Greece - which implies full-scale foreign occupation.
Obviously, any suggestion of “occupation” may well provoke irredentist reactions - not necessarily now, but perhaps in the future. During my visit, I was shown a documentary filmed in Skopje’s schools, which, the Greek authorities claim, is proof of the confusion surrounding “Macedonia’s” ethnic and geographical borders, not just among pupils, but also among teachers.2 (http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc08/EDOC11524.htm#P65_6957#P65_6957) In an unstable and volatile region like the Balkans, the risk of dangerous developments should not be underestimated, especially when ethnic and territorial issues are involved.

Risk of confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia.
In addition,Greece argues that the use of the name ‘Macedonia’ for its northern neighbour creates a risk of confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia and may bring about prejudice to exports of products from this region.
FYROM presented her case as follows [1] :

National identity.
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” is a newly-independent state, engaged in the process of consolidating its democratic institutions and overcoming possible ethnic tensions through the reinforcement of a sense of civic citizenship among its population. Over time, not only have its borders varied considerably but also its very existence has had no continuity, even as a non-independent political entity, having been completely wiped off Europe’s map after the Second Balkan War and incorporated by its neighbours. The existence of a ‘Macedonian’ language is questioned by other Slavic countries, and so is the existence of a ‘Macedonian’ ethnicity. Even the independence of the ‘Macedonian’ Orthodox Church is not consensually accepted.
Against this background, it is clear that the recognition of its constitutional name has for “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” a crucial meaning: it would be the recognition of its international legitimacy as a state and a nation with its own language and heritage. Internally, recognition of the country’s constitutional name would help to consolidate its national identity. It must also be stressed that, during my visit, both ethnic Macedonian and ethnic Albanian members of parliament expressed the same views on the name issue.

Greek opposition to use of the constitutional name is artificial, and motivated by a desire to deny the existence of a Macedonian minority in Greece.
The basic point is that every country is entitled to the name it chooses. Greece never opposed use of the name ‘Macedonia’, when the latter was one of the six federal entities that made up Yugoslavia (1944-1991) – but the problem arose when it became independent. This change of attitude is disappointing since Greece, as the new state’s neighbour, should have been one of the first to recognise it; on the other hand, it may reflect a simple refusal to recognise the existence of a ‘Macedonian’ nation, and thus the presence of a ‘Macedonian’ minority on Greek territory. This is why Greece rejects the constitutional name – which expresses nationality – but would be prepared to accept a geographical name, such as ‘Upper Macedonia’.
This is also the position of the “Rainbow Party” in Greece, which claims to represent the interests of the country’s ‘Macedonian’ minority. This party - which decided not to take part in the last parliamentary elections, and which in the previous ones obtained only marginal support - stresses that the concept of “nation” promoted for centuries by the Greek state sees today’s Greeks as an ethnically homogeneous nation, and Ancient Greece’s only descendants.4 (http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc08/EDOC11524.htm#P79_10993#P79_10993) It claims that, shortly after “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” became independent, the Greek authorities started renaming ministries (the Ministry of Northern Greece became the ‘Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace’), airports (Thessaloniki Airport became ‘Thessaloniki-Macedonia’ Airport), etc, in order to strengthen the idea that use of the name “Macedonia” was a Greek monopoly. In fact, there is documentary proof that there was a “Macedonian” language in Greece – and thus a community which spoke it – even before 1945.
Moreover, the Skopje authorities dismiss fears that recognising the country by its constitutional name might legitimise territorial claims as groundless: this has not only been ruled out by the various amendments to the Constitution, but also runs contrary to the foreign policy of “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, which aims at integration within the Euro-Atlantic structures in a peaceful and co-operative spirit. According to Skopje, even the Badinter Commission acknowledged that no hostile intent underlay the choice of the constitutional name.

Use of a reference or acronym is offensive.
Skopje argues that using a provisional reference to denote a sovereign state or, even worse, the acronym FYROM or fYROM is disrespectfulLike it is known in the international affairs, every state is free to choose the name it wishes. The exercise of the state's right to choose its name, as with any right in general, must not, however, impede the rights of other states or be accomplished for a purpose other than that for which the right was established for and be to the detriment of another state [2]. The prohibition of the abusive exercise of a right is a general principle of justice, which is repeatedly reiterated in international jurisdiction practice and is superior among the rules which govern the exercise of rights of those subject to international justice.

In regards to the specific issue, international practice shows clearly and undoubtedly that the right of states to choose names or symbols may be limited when, owing to these names or symbols, international peace and security is placed in danger. In any case, it is known that the threat against peace is not necessarily linked to the use of violence, but can even be manifested with acts which in the first place clash with international law [3].

FYROM Slavs(leadership and people) need to understand that stability can not be built on irredentism. This is very basic for the return of the whole region into development orbit. At the same time the USA should stop taking advantage of disputes that destabilize the region. These are the fundamental components of a real stabilizing activism. As the Athens Academy and Senate pointed out (1992):

It [FYROM] does not have the right to acquire, by international recognition, an advantage enjoyed by no other state in the world: to use a name which of itself propagandizes territorial aspirations


Professor Zaikos [4]quoted that in this specific case, the stance of the United Nations and of the European Union show that the insistence of Greece that the choosing of a state's name can comprise a form of aggression is not without grounds. Consequentially, the theoretical probability that the choice of a name by a state be considered as hostile propaganda against a neighbouring state, given that that name conceals territorial claims, has been recongised.

From this point of view, it is widely known that in FYROM maps have been repeatedly published which modify international borders, thereby portraying that state with expanded geographical and ethnic frontiers which include supposedly unredeemed territories in Greece. It is evident that the maps do not merely aim at geograhical information but at altering the frontiers of territorial sovereignty of states and can constitute an attempt at claiming sovereignty under international law.

FYROM's terminology--"Aegean Macedonia" (http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2007/05/aegean-macedoniaa-nationalist-term.html)--for Greek Macedonia and the so call repression of "the Macedonians in Greece" without qualification, which not only generates confusion but also gives the impression that members of this small minority constitute the only or true Macedonians in the region. As Loring Danforth point out [5] the usage of the «Aegean Macedonia» (http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2007/05/aegean-macedoniaa-nationalist-term.html)i (http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2007/05/aegean-macedoniaa-nationalist-term.html)s regarded as a non-recognition of current European borders, including the legitimacy of Greek sovereignty over the area.

Accepting or propagating the FYROM-Macedonian vocabulary and statistics, outside time, space, and context, not distinguishing between cultural repression, on the one hand, and defense against subversion of territorial integrity, on the other, it has some value but only in an eyewitness, candid-camera, raw-news kind of way.

115 members of the U.S. Congress, from both parties, support House Resolution 356, expressing the "sense of the House of Representatives that FYROM should stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece, and should work with the United Nations and Greece to find a mutually acceptable official name".

A similar resolution, S.R. 300, was introduced in the Senate by Senators Robert Menendez, Barrack Obama and Olympia Snowe [6] urges the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to



observe its obligations under Article 7 of the 1995 United Nations-brokered Interim Accord, which directs the parties to `promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by state-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility' and review the contents of textbooks, maps, and teaching aids to ensure that such tools are stating accurate information; and
to work with Greece within the framework of the United Nations process to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals by reaching a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.

According to international regulations, the name of FYROM is being referred in six official languages of the resolution of the United Nations, among the "names of independent states which are generally recognised by the international community", as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". As a result, the statement of the FYROM delegations that the name 'FYROM', "is a result of Resolution 817 of the Security Council" and that "it is not the real name of the country", besides constituting a direct violation of the Interim Accord, are not accepted by the international bodies. According to international regulations, FYROM is not exempted from its obligation to choose a name after negotiations and agreement with Greece.

FYROM Slavmacedonians(leadership and people) need to understand that international recognition by no means necessarily endows a state with legitimacy, especially when the recognition has been granted in such an impetuous manner in the midst of a crisis and if legitimacy is held to have any connection with a common history and a sense of common destiny as characteristics of the state's population, without which no state can survive.

Greece has called upon FYROM's leadership to act responsibly and show political courage and meet Greece half way. It will be a responsible move on the part of an aspiring candidate, a move that will win them a European future, a future of stability, peace and economic prosperity, based on the principles upon which NATO and the European Union are founded.

NOTES
[1] - Use of the provisional reference “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” at the Council of Europe, Doc. 11524, 8 February 2008
[2] - Α. Kiss, «Abuse of rights», Encyclopedia of Public International Law, Volume I, 1992, a. 4.
[3]-Η. Neuhold, «Peace, Threat to», Encyclopedia of Public International Law, Vol. Ill, a. 936.
[4] –Nikos Zaikos in «MacedonianIdentities». (http://akritas-history-of-makedonia.blogspot.com/2008/06/blog-post_18.html)
[5] - The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Loring M. Danforth, p. 37
[6] - http://www.hancusa.net/content/view/302/35/

special thanks to tsontos that help me in some quotes that needed translation.

http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2008/07/fyrom-name-issue-self-determination-or.html

[Dimitar. M]

FYROM Slavmacedonians(leadership and people) claim that theirs nation has right to self-determination and this is true.

From the other side , Greece declared it had no claims on FYROM'S territory. Greece's only serious grievance was, and still is, the use by FYROM of the name "Macedonia" and its derivatives.

Greece presented her case as follows [1]:



I think that Greek case is groundless.

1. You can't deny the state name and identity of a group of people based on history becasue history is viewed differently by every group of people meaning it is subjective.

2. The Macedonian constitution states that it has no territorial claims towards no country. And the constitution is the highest law. You can't post a picture of a civil protest and say that the country is iredentistic. It is redicilous. It's like seeing a post ,,Kill the Turks'' in a Greek protest and conclude that the Greeks are iredentistic.:rolleyes:. The maps of Macedonia are shown as historical maps only showing the wider region. The Macedonians even if they wanted they coudnt make any territorial claims posible even if they wanted. And finaly the change of the constitutional name wouldn't change nonthing of what you say ,,territorial claims''. So it is groundless to look for the change of the name.

3. There can't be a confusion between the Greek province Macedonia and the country Macedonia because the first is a PROVINCE and the second is a COUNTRY. Further the country is called REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA and not just plain Macedonia. And third why should we change our name, and not you??





Like it is known in the international affairs, every state is free to choose the name it wishes. The exercise of the state's right to choose its name, as with any right in general, must not, however, impede the rights of other states or be accomplished for a purpose other than that for which the right was established for and be to the detriment of another state

Whell this says that a country name shouldn't deny the right of another country to carry the name it wishes. We don't do that.





[COLOR=black]In regards to the specific issue,[B] international practice shows clearly and undoubtedly that the right of states to choose names or symbols may be limited when, owing to these names or symbols, international peace and security is placed in danger.

But who is the one that said that international peace and security is placed in danger with our name?? The Greeks right. So we have a situation here ,, Kadija te tuzi, kadija te sudi'' ( The guy that i sueing you, is judging you too):rolleyes:


FYROM Slavs(leadership and people) need to understand that stability can not be built on irredentism. This is very basic for the return of the whole region into development orbit.

And you think by denying peoples identity you will achieve stability and make the irredentism smaler??:rolleyes: Common the last thing you want is that, since it will destroy your positions.



As the Athens Academy and Senate pointed out (1992):

[FONT=Verdana]It [FYROM] does not have the right to acquire, by international recognition, an advantage enjoyed by no other state in the world: to use a name which of itself propagandizes territorial aspirations

What a statement! The name itself had propagandized territorial aspirations:rolleyes:. The Bulgarians must be very stupid then since they don't care about the country's name.:rolleyes:


Professor Zaikos [FONT=Verdana][4]quoted that in this specific case, the stance of the United Nations and of the European Union show that the insistence of Greece that the choosing of a state's name can comprise a form of aggression is not without grounds. Consequentially, the theoretical probability that the choice of a name by a state be considered as hostile propaganda against a neighbouring state, given that that name conceals territorial claims, has been recongised.

The only thing that has been proven with this is that in the world the law of force is still stronger then the force of law. Nothing more.


[FONT=Verdana]115 members of the U.S. Congress, from both parties, support House Resolution 356, expressing the "sense of the House of Representatives that FYROM should stop hostile activities and propaganda against Greece, and should work with the United Nations and Greece to find a mutually acceptable official name".

Yes but it still remains the fact that USA along with 120 othe countries had recognized the constitutional name ''Republic of Macedonia''. Why is that, do they not care about the stability or it is because they don't believe a word of it.


[FONT=Verdana]Greece has called upon FYROM's leadership to act responsibly and show political courage and meet Greece half way.


And where will that half way be?? Will it be when we won't be called macedonians and our langauge Macedonian anymore?? Is that the half-way you are looking for??

[Draco]

The only thing that has been proven with this is that in the world the law of force is still stronger then the force of law. Nothing more.
This is 100% nonsense. The veto was not "force", it was an measure Greece was perfectly entitled to take under international law, the relevant international treaties. Force in international relations is illegal.

[Foti66]

Draco, these clowns are parrots. There idiotic foreign minister called it illegal so they all jump on board. No thought. No reasoning. Sad case for this backward ass nation.

[kostas68]

So we have a situation here ,, Kadija te tuzi, kadija te sudi'' ( The guy that i sueing you, is judging you too):rolleyes:

Hey,Dimitar,you use a Turkish word for <judge> ? As far as i know,judge in Turkish is <kadi>.Couldn't Tito's linguists replace this word by a Serbian,as they made with many pure Bulgarian words that your vocabulary had before 1945?Or you had indeed a Bulgarian word for <judge> till the Titoyougolinguists replaced it by <kadija>,which is used by the Serbians?

[akritas]

Dimitar why I am not surprising that you didnt understand what I wrote as about the issue ? :)
Please answer me honestly two simply questions.

FYROMacedonia Unification
Your constitution mention that has as spot point the historic decision of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia(AFCM) and the founding manifesto of AFCM. In this manifesto (including in your Constitution) speaks for the unification of ‘Macedonia’, based on the right of self-determination, was a primary goal:

‘It is essential that we unite the whole Macedonian people of the three parts of Macedonia into one Macedonian state… Macedonians from Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia must follow the example of Macedonians in Jugoslav Macedonia’.

Is this a territorial aspiration or not ?
The objectives on the agenda of AFCM have been religiously observed for sixty years and more from your people and leaders.Your Constitition mention that and not me.

Links with the ancient Macedonians
All the writers (historians, anthropologists, archaeologists, ethnologists e.t.c.) support two thinks as about your nation:
- you are a newly and Slavic emergent people
- your national identity does not begin in ancient Macedonian era.

Also as about the origin of the ancient Macedonian there two streams
-Hellenize
-Greek

In the above we must adding the sudden “epidemic” manifesting itself through the erection of monuments, the renaming of streets, airports, etc., with names of Ancient Greek historical origin.
The usage of the Greeks Symbol Vergina Star from the Slavamcedonians officials is a is a “hostile activity”.

Is it a hostile activity, a territorial aspiration or not ?

[Dimitar. M]

This is 100% nonsense. The veto was not "force", it was an measure Greece was perfectly entitled to take under international law, the relevant international treaties. Force in international relations is illegal.

It force when u use it as you used it, as a weapon to achieve something that is not connected with NATO.

[Dimitar. M]

Hey,Dimitar,you use a Turkish word for <judge> ? As far as i know,judge in Turkish is <kadi>.Couldn't Tito's linguists replace this word by a Serbian,as they made with many pure Bulgarian words that your vocabulary had before 1945?Or you had indeed a Bulgarian word for <judge> till the Titoyougolinguists replaced it by <kadija>,which is used by the Serbians?

Tito didn't linguisticly replaced anything. There are plenty Turkish words in our language. And yes we know that they are Turkish.;) We don't try to make the Turkish coffe Macedonian( like you try to make it Greek:rolleyes:)

As for Tito and his linguists look at Foti post and find yourselve in it.

[Astoria]

It force when u use it as you used it, as a weapon to achieve something that is not connected with NATO.

To become a Nato member a mutual friendship between all members must exist. Our veto was 100% valid. You will not become a member if you do not respect a member with seniority.

[akritas]

Tito didn't linguisticly replaced anything. There are plenty Turkish words in our language. And yes we know that they are Turkish.;) We don't try to make the Turkish coffe Macedonian( like you try to make it Greek:rolleyes:)

As for Tito and his linguists look at Foti post and find yourselve in it.
Yes you tried....Caplan in the Balkan Ghosts(page 68) drunk a ..."macedonian coffee" from you Schismatic Archbishop in 1996.

That is Macedonian coffee you are drinking, not Turkish coffee or Greek coffee :)

And as about the "Greek coffee" Greeks we changed and use this name after Cyprus events. What about you ? Why "macedonian coffee" ?

[Dimitar. M]

Dimitar why I am not surprising that you didnt understand what I wrote as about the issue ? :)
Please answer me honestly two simply questions.

FYROMacedonia Unification
Your constitution mention that has as spot point the historic decision of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia(AFCM) and the founding manifesto of AFCM. In this manifesto (including in your Constitution) speaks for the unification of ‘Macedonia’, based on the right of self-determination, was a primary goal:

‘It is essential that we unite the whole Macedonian people of the three parts of Macedonia into one Macedonian state… Macedonians from Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia must follow the example of Macedonians in Jugoslav Macedonia’.

Is this a territorial aspiration or not ?
The objectives on the agenda of AFCM have been religiously observed for sixty years and more from your people and leaders.Your Constitition mention that and not me.

If it sais like that, then the constitutions contradicts itself, because in it states that the Macedonia has no territorial or whatsoever aspirations towards any country !! But please show me where in the constitution states that we want the 3 parts??

And again even if it states that, tell me Akritas will that territorial claim be changed if we change the name??? What does the name has to do with our claims?? If we call ourselves ''North Macedonia'' we can just inscreace our claims saying ,,Macedonia is splited on North and South and we want it united''.
If we are ''New Macedonia'' again nothing will change towards the territorial claims.

So we can conclude that the territorial claims are not what you are afraid off Akritas! Even a small child can realize that. You want the Macedonian identity, which is clear as day. Its hard for me to believe that it will hapen.:)




Links with the ancient Macedonians
All the writers (historians, anthropologists, archaeologists, ethnologists e.t.c.) support two thinks as about your nation:
- you are a newly and Slavic emergent people
- your national identity does not begin in ancient Macedonian era.

Also as about the origin of the ancient Macedonian there two streams
-Hellenize
-Greek

In the above we must adding the sudden “epidemic” manifesting itself through the erection of monuments, the renaming of streets, airports, etc., with names of Ancient Greek historical origin.
The usage of the Greeks Symbol Vergina Star from the Slavamcedonians officials is a is a “hostile activity”.

Is it a hostile activity, a territorial aspiration or not ?

Well the ''epidemic'' erection of monuments and renaming of streets can be compared with the same thing hapening in Greece after 1988 when tons of streets,airports,clubs,organizations were renamed to ''Macedonia''. We didn't jaked about it.
And who said that Vergina Star is only a Greek symbol?? Who said that we can't use it, or that if we use it we are hostile towards the Greeks:rolleyes:? Poor you.

[Dimitar. M]

Yes you tried....Caplan in the Balkan Ghosts(page 68) drunk a ..."macedonian coffee" from you Schismatic Archbishop in 1996.

That is Macedonian coffee you are drinking, not Turkish coffee or Greek coffee :)

And as about the "Greek coffee" Greeks we changed and use this name after Cyprus events. What about you ? Why "macedonian coffee" ?

This is the first time i hear about ,,Macedonian coffee''! I don't know from where you've heard that but you shouldn't make conclusions based on what one person said( and i don't know if he even said it). We still call it ,,Turkish coffee'' unlike yours ''Greek coffee''.

It would be hilarious to order a Turkish coffee in Greece and the owner saying ''we dont have Turkish we have only Greek'' and when he brings it to you, what do you see a Turkish coffee. :D :D :D

[Dimitar. M]

To become a Nato member a mutual friendship between all members must exist. Our veto was 100% valid. You will not become a member if you do not respect a member with seniority.

ccccc. Whao that's so nice. If we are members of NATO and Serbia wants to join we can say ,, eighter give us the monastery Prohor Pcinski which we lost in 1945 with the federational division or no NATO''

Or if we were in NATO and you werent it would be totaly right for us to say ,,If you dson't stop using the name Macedonia you will not enter NATO, or recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece or you will not enter( maybe we should add public schools for them etc.)

But that's all in the ranks of acceptable. We are talking about changing the identity of a people. You must be crazy if you believe that NATO worths that much. Nothing worths that much

[akritas]

If it sais like that, then the constitutions contradicts itself, because in it states that the Macedonia has no territorial or whatsoever aspirations towards any country !! But please show me where in the constitution states that we want the 3 parts??

In the ....PREAMBLE...
it's stated that based in ...the historical decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia

And one from these historical historical decisions is that the ...proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination. This would put an end to the oppresion of the people of Macedonia in all its parts.

Reminds you something ?

And again even if it states that, tell me Akritas will that territorial claim be changed if we change the name??? What does the name has to do with our claims?? If we call ourselves ''North Macedonia'' we can just inscreace our claims saying ,,Macedonia is splited on North and South and we want it united''.
If we are ''New Macedonia'' again nothing will change towards the territorial claims.

So we can conclude that the territorial claims are not what you are afraid off Akritas! Even a small child can realize that. You want the Macedonian identity, which is clear as day. Its hard for me to believe that it will hapen.
That's why we want a name for "erga omnes" only. We are not afraid you dimitar. You have tried at the past as Bulgarians first and as Slavmacedonians later to annex the Macedonia but you...failed.And you stayed in the Vardar region that you renamed it as ...Macedonia.:)
But we cannot close our eyes in you expanding claims. Given the fact that the Slavic population of the FYROM has changed its national identity four times during the 20th century, wavering from Bulgarian to Serbian to Bulgarian to "Macedonian," the insistence of Skopje not to give up its "Macedonian" identity feeds increasingly our suspicions that your Slavmacedonian site end goal is the eventual claim of all Macedonian territories (Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania). For more than 18 years Skopje has done all possible to maintain its "Macedonian" identity (as your constitution states ) and increasingly forces the issue through speeches or deeds of its governments, blaming Greece for all the ills of the FYROM society, as if it is a spoiled child in a tantrum.
We know that you dream the Macedonia dimitar, is not the first time.

Well the ''epidemic'' erection of monuments and renaming of streets can be compared with the same thing hapening in Greece after 1988 when tons of streets,airports,clubs,organizations were renamed to ''Macedonia''. We didn't jaked about it.
Dont be redicilus for one more time....

Contemporary Greek use of the name Macedonia - the most ill conceived skopjian lie (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/405-contemporary-greek-use-name-macedonia-most-ill-conceived-skopjian-lie.html)
Grow up, Macedonia name is just a...Greek name in modern uses.

And who said that Vergina Star is only a Greek symbol?? Who said that we can't use it, or that if we use it we are hostile towards the Greeks:rolleyes:? Poor you.

the Vergina sun is registered as a greek symbol by WIPO (http://www.wipo.int/cgi-6te/guest/ifetch5?ENG+6TER+15+1151315-REVERSE+0+0+1056+F+124+431+101+25+SEP-0/HITNUM,B+KIND%2fEmblem+) (World Intelectual Property Organisation of United Nations based in Geneva)...this is why they decided to change their first FYROM flag to the current one.....Only complete ignorant ultranationalists still use. Are you use it this pan-hellenic symbol (http://macedonianontheweb.blogspot.com/search/label/Vergina%20Sun) in your daily life dimitar ?

This is the first time i hear about ,,Macedonian coffee''! I don't know from where you've heard that but you shouldn't make conclusions based on what one person said( and i don't know if he even said it). We still call it ,,Turkish coffee'' unlike yours ''Greek coffee''.

First time ?Caplan also and realized who are the ?macedonians" that speaks Slavonic

It would be hilarious to order a Turkish coffee in Greece and the owner saying ''we dont have Turkish we have only Greek'' and when he brings it to you, what do you see a Turkish coffee. :D :D :D

No is not, if you are are lover of the Greeks and respect the Greek hospitality. But now FYROM (VMRO politicians and diaspora slavmacedonians) is deep in love with the Turks.....deep in love. Am I right ?

[Astoria]

You must be crazy if you believe that NATO worths that much. Nothing worths that much

Your all talk....

So then stop trying to enter Nato and EU.

[Demetrius Doukas]

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

[Dimitar. M]

In the ....PREAMBLE...
it's stated that based in ...the historical decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia

And one from these historical historical decisions is that the ...proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination. This would put an end to the oppresion of the people of Macedonia in all its parts.

Reminds you something ?


You are good at giving proofs. Show me the proof where does it state that??
Plus there were more Anti-Fashist Assemblies of the People Liberation of Macedonia( in which one is that stated??)
I can easely say ,,you lie'' ,,it doesn't say that''.

BTW as i said even if it states like that it is totaly democratic. If the ,,Greeks'' want to live with us why should we stop them.:)
proclamation to the entire world its just and resolute aspiration for the unification of the[U] whole macedonian people on the principle based on the right to self-determination

And most important is that in the constitution states that ,,MAcedonia has no teritorial pretensions towards any country''.
That change was made by pressure from Greece. If Greece thought that there are more dubious things in our constitution she would have said it. She didn't so it a DONE DEAL.



That's why we want a name for "erga omnes" only. We are not afraid you dimitar. You have tried at the past as Bulgarians first and as Slavmacedonians later to annex the Macedonia but you...failed.And you stayed in the Vardar region that you renamed it as ...Macedonia.:)
But we cannot close our eyes in you expanding claims. Given the fact that the Slavic population of the FYROM has changed its national identity four times during the 20th century, wavering from Bulgarian to Serbian to Bulgarian to "Macedonian," the insistence of Skopje not to give up its "Macedonian" identity feeds increasingly our suspicions that your Slavmacedonian site end goal is the eventual claim of all Macedonian territories (Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania). For more than 18 years Skopje has done all possible to maintain its "Macedonian" identity (as your constitution states ) and increasingly forces the issue through speeches or deeds of its governments, blaming Greece for all the ills of the FYROM society, as if it is a spoiled child in a tantrum.
We know that you dream the Macedonia dimitar, is not the first time.

Dont be redicilus for one more time....

I'm not the one that is being rediciloius, you are. Not just that but you and your whole Greek society is starting to become a paranoid bunch. Your stories about our will to take all Macedonia go and tell it to a little child( i even doubt that an intelegent child will believe in them).
But from what i can conclude from your post you now change your view, and now it's not the name that bothers you, but it's the identity!! Why doesn't your goverment state that??

How does the Macedonian ethic identity threatens you and Greece is bejond me!!:rolleyes:
And again you haven't ancered me my main question. What will change in our iredentistic claims if we change our name?? No anwser yet.




Contemporary Greek use of the name Macedonia - the most ill conceived skopjian lie (http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/405-contemporary-greek-use-name-macedonia-most-ill-conceived-skopjian-lie.html)
Grow up, Macedonia name is just a...Greek name in modern uses.

It's not a lie Akritas. Showing me maps from Cambridge and Oxford( English schools) is pathetic to show me the use of the word Macedonia in Greece. Face it before 1988 you has a newspaper, a fair, and a organization called Macedonia. Now every second place there is called Macedonia, from airport to local clubs :rolleyes:. You even put tables on the border with Macedonia saying ,,Welcome to Macedonia'' :D :D :D :rolleyes:



the Vergina sun is registered as a greek symbol by WIPO (http://www.wipo.int/cgi-6te/guest/ifetch5?ENG+6TER+15+1151315-REVERSE+0+0+1056+F+124+431+101+25+SEP-0/HITNUM,B+KIND%2fEmblem+) (World Intelectual Property Organisation of United Nations based in Geneva)...this is why they decided to change their first FYROM flag to the current one.....Only complete ignorant ultranationalists still use. Are you use it this pan-hellenic symbol (http://macedonianontheweb.blogspot.com/search/label/Vergina%20Sun) in your daily life dimitar ?

Your link didn't worked. Give me a proof that the Vergina sun is registered as a mark and i will believe you. :)


First time ?Caplan also and realized who are the ?macedonians" that speaks Slavonic

Yes first time. We still call it Turkish coffee!! You know why, because it is TURKISH.


No is not, if you are are lover of the Greeks and respect the Greek hospitality. But now FYROM (VMRO politicians and diaspora slavmacedonians) is deep in love with the Turks.....deep in love. Am I right ?

Yes it is funny. All the world knows it as Turkish coffee, just the Greeks call it Greek :D :D :D

PS: We are as much in love with the Turks as you are with the Bulgarians.

[Dimitar. M]

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

You, a Macedonian?? Give me a break. If it wasn't for our ethnic Macedonian identity your regional Macedonian identity would'nt exist. Or it would as the Spartan regional identity :rolleyes:

[euro]

Dimitar M scopian guy................as Macedonian I'm really disgusted from the rubish that your scopian countryman are spreading, understand scopian you cannot change in this way your destiny I'm really sorry for you....
do you not have some shame at least? Obviously no............so get out of here and better take care of the goats in scopland.

Demetrius Doukas.... as Macedonian i am also disgusted from the Greek propaganda and denying my identity. I think that you have no shame at all in this ruthless attack against Macedonia and Macedonians. I am really sorry for you too.....

[Draco]

A consistent pattern in Paeonian Bulgar nationalists' behaviour is that they claim that others are denying their identity and that this is bad, and then they proceed to deny the Greek/genuine Macedonian identity. I'm sorry, if you want them to recognize you, you have to recognize them, this is a two way street.

[Dimitar. M]

A consistent pattern in Paeonian Bulgar nationalists' behaviour is that they claim that others are denying their identity and that this is bad, and then they proceed to deny the Greek/genuine Macedonian identity. I'm sorry, if you want them to recognize you, you have to recognize them, this is a two way street.

Well Ok then. Since we were so ''bad'' towards your people we are willing to accept your regional Macedonian identity, ofcourse as you say if we do that then you should accept our ethnic Macedonian identity.

Isn't that right Draco?? I know recognize your Macedonian identity!! Will you recognize my Macedonian identity and call me Macedonian now ?? :D :D :D:)

[kostas68]

Well Ok then. Since we were so ''bad'' towards your people we are willing to accept your regional Macedonian identity, ofcourse as you say if we do that then you should accept our ethnic Macedonian identity.

Isn't that right Draco?? I know recognize your Macedonian identity!! Will you recognize my Macedonian identity and call me Macedonian now ?? :D :D :D:)
I recognize your non-Macedonian identity.Are you satisfied with the name non-Macedonian or Unmacedonian?It contains the term <Macedonian>.:p

[Dimitar. M]

I recognize your non-Macedonian identity.Are you satisfied with the name non-Macedonian or Unmacedonian?It contains the term <Macedonian>.:p

I was talking to Draco!! I saw his post/replied and now i'm waiting for his anwser.

[Slayer]

Well Ok then. Since we were so ''bad'' towards your people we are willing to accept your regional Macedonian identity, ofcourse as you say if we do that then you should accept our ethnic Macedonian identity.

Isn't that right Draco?? I know recognize your Macedonian identity!! Will you recognize my Macedonian identity and call me Macedonian now ?? :D :D :D:)

Why would you want to share your ethnicity with a different ethnic group?

It's always the Greeks who complain about the use of the Macedonian ethnicity but you guys don't seem to care about us using it in a "regional sense". I don't think you guys truly believe that you are plain Macedonians. if you did you wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to keep the ethnicity but you would be fighting tooth and nail to have Greece remove any connection with Macedonia.

I have never been able to get my head around that

[kostas68]

Why would you want to share your ethnicity with a different ethnic group?

It's always the Greeks who complain about the use of the Macedonian ethnicity but you guys don't seem to care about us using it in a "regional sense". I don't think you guys truly believe that you are plain Macedonians. if you did you wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to keep the ethnicity but you would be fighting tooth and nail to have Greece remove any connection with Macedonia.

I have never been able to get my head around that

Exactly!It's the same as the story of Solomon's solution.When Solomon ordered that the baby that was claimed by two women should be cut in two pieces,only the real mother protested.

[Dimitar. M]

Exactly!It's the same as the story of Solomon's solution.When Solomon ordered that the baby that was claimed by two women should be cut in two pieces,only the real mother protested.


The real mother agreed to give the child to the other women so that it won't be killed. So the real mother protested and let the child go the other women. Will you do the same?? :D :D :D

Your position here is ,, give me the name for myself, it's mine '' while we are saying ,, it's not your's, it belongs to both of us since we both live there'' That's why we don't fight to deny you the right to feel Macedonian. If we do that then we will become what we never wanted, we will become like you guys, paranoid insecure bunch of people.

You are like the queen in Snowwhite. ''Mirror mirror on the wall who's the pritiest of them all'' and when it comes up that it's not you then you know the story, we make Snowwhite disapear so that we can be the most beutifull again:D :D

[Dimitar. M]

Why would you want to share your ethnicity with a different ethnic group?


We dont share our etnicy!! Etnicy can't be shared by my opinion. You can't have 2 groups of Ethnic Macedonians or 2 groups of Ethnic Greeks.
I think you can't understand the difference between ''Ethnic'' and ,,Regional''
identity. It's 2 totaly diferent things


It's always the Greeks who complain about the use of the Macedonian ethnicity but you guys don't seem to care about us using it in a "regional sense".

1. I've never seen someone calling the Greeks, Macedonians. That word is used only for us. So no need to create a fuss about it.
2. You have the right to call yourselves as you wish and noone has the right to deny it.
3. Even if someone else calls you Macedonians i won't have a problem. Why would I?? If someone asks me ,,are you the same'' i will say ,,no we are diferent type of Macedonians'' (ethnic and regional)''

[Demetrius Doukas]

You, a Macedonian?? Give me a break. If it wasn't for our ethnic Macedonian identity your regional Macedonian identity would'nt exist. Or it would as the Spartan regional identity :rolleyes:

You are Macdonalds my boy:) :rolleyes:

[Demetrius Doukas]

Demetrius Doukas.... as Macedonian i am also disgusted from the Greek propaganda and denying my identity. I think that you have no shame at all in this ruthless attack against Macedonia and Macedonians. I am really sorry for you too.....

You are obviously sick boy I'm not intentind to discuss issues with scopian who needs medical help..................understand .........scopian guy?!

[Demetrius Doukas]

1. I've never seen someone calling the Greeks, Macedonians.

Really scopian?............Everyone calls the 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece - Macedonians, Ok?! Just to remind you that I as a Macedonian unfortunately cannot recognize you as such and you are violating my rights Ok?! Now go to write better in the scopian forums.....................

[euro]

You are obviously sick boy I'm not intentind to discuss issues with scopian who needs medical help..................understand .........scopian guy?!

You don't have to discuss with me. Nobody asks you to do that if you don't want.

As for my health.... don't worry. I am 100% healthy and i feel perfect. ;)

[akritas]

You are good at giving proofs. Show me the proof where does it state that??


hehehe!!
The University of 'Cyril and Methodius', Faculty of Philosophy and History, Documents on the Struggle of the Macedonian People for Independence and a Nation-State, Documents, vol. 2, p. 635, Skopje 1985

More proof ?



And most important is that in the constitution states that ,,MAcedonia has no teritorial pretensions towards any country''.
That change was made by pressure from Greece. If Greece thought that there are more dubious things in our constitution she would have said it. She didn't so it a DONE DEAL.
Oh..yes...Is part of the UN discussion. But this time Greece focus in the real target , the name of your constitution and not in the articles

How does the Macedonian ethic identity threatens you and Greece is bejond me!!
I am Macedonian from Greece, what are you ?
I am a Macedonian, however I am in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; I am instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM.
Is so hard to understand this ?

Finally as I said in the international affairs, every state is free to choose the name it wishes. The exercise of the state's right to choose its name, as with any right in general, must not, however, impede the rights of other states or be accomplished for a purpose other than that for which the right was established for and be to the detriment of another state.
UN show that the insistence of Greece that the choosing of a state's name can comprise a form of aggression is not without grounds.

And again you haven't ancered me my main question. What will change in our And again you haven't ancered me my main question. What will change in our iredentistic claims if we change our name?? No anwser yet. .
No will not change your irredentist claims.Always you dream the Macedonia. But it will smash your nationalistic slavmacedonian ideology.


It's not a lie Akritas. Showing me maps from Cambridge and Oxford( English schools) is pathetic to show me the use of the word Macedonia in Greece...bla...bla
its pathetic but is excusable because you are poisonous with the Macedonism....:p...read Skopjan propagandist Rossos ...one of the source that use os the ...archive of Governship of Macedonia.:)


You even put tables on the border with Macedonia saying ,,Welcome to Macedonia''
Thank you...a Greek term that use from all.:)


Your link didn't worked. Give me a proof that the Vergina sun is registered as a mark and i will believe you.
Yeap I just also noticed. I hope WIPO fixed these links(are three). Since then I am a lier when a speak with a .....:p:)
Yes first time. We still call it Turkish coffee!! You know why, because it is TURKISH....bla...bla...bla.
Not according your Archbishop...
btw the coffee is arabic and not turkish. You have problems with the history...:)...no surprising of course:p

[kostas68]

The real mother agreed to give the child to the other women so that it won't be killed. So the real mother protested and let the child go the other women. Will you do the same?? :D :D :D
No,it's different situation,because if Greece(real mother) leaves the name Macedonia( baby) to FYROM(fake mother),the baby will not survive.The fact is that the fake mother(FYROM) was eager to accept this solution,the cut of the baby(Macedonia) in two pieces.Only the real mother(Greece) didn't agree.The baby dies in both cases if the real mother accepts Solomon's solution,that's the point.
You are like the queen in Snowwhite. ''Mirror mirror on the wall who's the pritiest of them all'' and when it comes up that it's not you then you know the story, we make Snowwhite disapear so that we can be the most beutifull again:D :D
You <forgot> deliberately(i can't believe you don't know it) to mention the end:Snowwhite(Greek Macedonia) triumphed over the bad witch(FYROM).Snowwhite became a queen,the witch was imprisoned.
You misinterpreted a biblic story and you falsificated even a fairy tale,in order to fit in your <Macedonistic logic>!What's next?I never expect it Dimitar,that you would falsificate Snowwhite's tale!:p:p

[Slayer]

We dont share our etnicy!! Etnicy can't be shared by my opinion. You can't have 2 groups of Ethnic Macedonians or 2 groups of Ethnic Greeks.
I think you can't understand the difference between ''Ethnic'' and ,,Regional''
identity. It's 2 totaly diferent things



1. I've never seen someone calling the Greeks, Macedonians. That word is used only for us. So no need to create a fuss about it.
2. You have the right to call yourselves as you wish and noone has the right to deny it.
3. Even if someone else calls you Macedonians i won't have a problem. Why would I?? If someone asks me ,,are you the same'' i will say ,,no we are diferent type of Macedonians'' (ethnic and regional)''

Hello Dimitar

I think you need to give me a little more credit then you have.

If Southern Bulgaria renamed its southern province to Greece and the Southern Bulgarians identified as Greeks in a regional sense do you really think that Greeks would say, we have no problem with this because we are ethnic Greeks while you Southern Bulgarians are regional Greeks..I can guarantee you that we would never allow them to share our ethnicity.
Yet you say you have no problem for a different ethnic group in a different country calling themselves Macedonians because it is only in a regional sense?
Isn't your sense of pride in your ethnicity enough reason to argue that you don't want Greeks to call themselves Macedonians, regardless if it is in a regional sense?
There is a different ethnic group in a different country who still want to identify with your ethnicity! I can't accept your generosity.

[Dimitar. M]

You are Macdonalds my boy:) :rolleyes:

Macdonalds for you, but for the rest...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/26/macedonia.profile/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1850501.stm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9401E5DE173DF937A15754C0A9629C8B 63

And a lot lot more. I now understand your temper, my boy. Who is the wanabe-Macedonian now?? As you can see we are already Macedonians to everyone :D :D :D

[Dimitar. M]

Really scopian?............Everyone calls the 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece - Macedonians, Ok?! Just to remind you that I as a Macedonian unfortunately cannot recognize you as such and you are violating my rights Ok?! Now go to write better in the scopian forums.....................

Why don't you post some links, lets see who calls you ,,Macedonian''??

[Dimitar. M]

hehehe!!
The University of 'Cyril and Methodius', Faculty of Philosophy and History, Documents on the Struggle of the Macedonian People for Independence and a Nation-State, Documents, vol. 2, p. 635, Skopje 1985

That is a proof to show that we have iredentistic claims in our constitution? The Faculty of Philosophy is entitled to free interpretation of the ,,Strugle of the Macedonian people for independance and a national state''.
It has nothing to do with the constitution. The constitution has in itself very clear laws and obligations by which the country is ruled, and gues what it is not connected to what the profesors from the Faculty of Philosophy think.:rolleyes: Your reasoning is quite BAD regarding this mater.



Oh..yes...Is part of the UN discussion. But this time Greece focus in the real target , the name of your constitution and not in the articles

The name of the constitution is an internal mater in which UN or any other country can't interfear. Name for international use is another thing. Our goverment said clearly that we shouldn't extend the talks in something that is internal bussines. You wanted to do that, so now you have letters with Macedonian minority flowing.


I am Macedonian from Greece, what are you ?

Macedonian from Republic of Macedonia.


I am a Macedonian, however I am in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; I am instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM.
Is so hard to understand this ?

What kind of a Macedonian are you?? Ethnic or regional?? With what group of people do you identify with?? Only with the Greek regional Macedonians or with all the Greeks??
For the last ,poor you. Buhu you can't call yourselve a Macedonian and not to be afiliated with us! What should we do know?? Change our etnicy so that your heart won't get broken??
The fact is you can identify as a Macedonian(regional or whatever) which is your right. But your identification shouldn't and musn't be an opsticle for others to identify as they want to. Stop acting like spoiled children. ''Momy momy when i tell people i'm Macedonian they think that i'm from ROM. Why is that mommy, why is that''?


Finally as I said in the international affairs, every state is free to choose the name it wishes. The exercise of the state's right to choose its name, as with any right in general, must not, however, impede the rights of other states or be accomplished for a purpose other than that for which the right was established for and be to the detriment of another state.
UN show that the insistence of Greece that the choosing of a state's name can comprise a form of aggression is not without grounds.

How do we impede the right of your state?? You also can call yourselves as you wish, your region as you wish and your country as you wish! We are nor taking you that right.
And UN just acts only as a medijator for the TALKS between the countries. In the agreement it even doesn't say that a solution must be made.


No will not change your irredentist claims.Always you dream the Macedonia. But it will smash your nationalistic slavmacedonian ideology.

Why do you want to smash our ideology if it doesn't change our iredentistic claims?? Wasn't the reason for the name change our claims towards Greek Macedonia. Or now you reveal your true wishes??:)


its pathetic but is excusable because you are poisonous with the Macedonism....:p...

It's more pathetic then excusable. Today you started even to call yourselves Macedonians:rolleyes:.


Thank you...a Greek term that use from all.:)

I just wonder why didn't you put it in 1913 when you got the land. It need 90 years for you to do that.:rolleyes:


Yeap I just also noticed. I hope WIPO fixed these links(are three). Since then I am a lier when a speak with a .....:p:)

Excuses excuses:p


Not according your Archbishop...
btw the coffee is arabic and not turkish. You have problems with the history...:)...no surprising of course:p

The coffee is everywhere known as Turkish. I feel sorry for you who believe that you have your own ,,Greek coffee'' :D :D :D :D

[Astoria]

blah blah blah blah




The coffee is everywhere known as Turkish. I feel sorry for you who believe that you have your own ,,Greek coffee'' :D :D :D :D

And pasta is Italian but neither spaghetti nor tomatoes are native to Italy. Who cares?


Macdonalds for you, but for the rest..

And a lot lot more. I now understand your temper, my boy. Who is the wanabe-Macedonian now?? As you can see we are already Macedonians to everyone

What ppl call you is only temporary. When ppl want to find out who you are they need not to look very far to find the truth as well.

[Dimitar. M]

No,it's different situation,because if Greece(real mother) leaves the name Macedonia( baby) to FYROM(fake mother),the baby will not survive.The fact is that the fake mother(FYROM) was eager to accept this solution,the cut of the baby(Macedonia) in two pieces.Only the real mother(Greece) didn't agree.The baby dies in both cases if the real mother accepts Solomon's solution,that's the point.


If Solomon solution doesn't fit in this story why did you mentioned it in the first place?? And Solomon said ''noone will get the baby''. It will be split in half. If the fake mother agreed, and the real mother said ''no give it to me'' i don't think Solomon would have given it to her Kostas. Remember Solomon didn't knew who the real mother is, and if the real mother still acts selfish and keep on saying ,,give me the baby for myself'' then Solomon would never known who the real mother was.:)


You <forgot> deliberately(i can't believe you don't know it) to mention the end:Snowwhite(Greek Macedonia) triumphed over the bad witch(FYROM).Snowwhite became a queen,the witch was imprisoned.
You misinterpreted a biblic story and you falsificated even a fairy tale,in order to fit in your <Macedonistic logic>!What's next?I never expect it Dimitar,that you would falsificate Snowwhite's tale!:p:p

Aj aj Kostas. Everything is OK in this story, but you need to change the rolls. ;)
Look how nice the story fits in reality.
The bad queen( witch) thinks that she is the pritiest and that she has the only right to be that( like Greece thinks that she has the only right to the name Macedonia).
But now Snowwhite( Republic of Macedonia) apears and now the bad withc is angry because Snowwhite is pretier then her;)( in reality Greece is angry because everyone refers to the people in ROM as Macedonians, and doesn't refer to the Greeks as such(( look at Akritas post :D) )
Because the bad witch( Greece) can't believe in the situation in which she is, she decides to DESTROY, or let me be more moderate, to make Snowwhite uglier so that she can be most beautifull again.

Now i see you know the rest of the story so there is no point to continue.:)

[Dimitar. M]

Hello Dimitar

I think you need to give me a little more credit then you have.

If Southern Bulgaria renamed its southern province to Greece and the Southern Bulgarians identified as Greeks in a regional sense do you really think that Greeks would say, we have no problem with this because we are ethnic Greeks while you Southern Bulgarians are regional Greeks..

Your comparison is wrong again. Macedonia as a region is this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_Balkans_Macedonia_geo.jpg

So everyone that lives in Macedonia(region) has the right to identify as a Macedonian( in a regional or ethnic way). Why shouldn't they??

On the other hand Bulgaria has no part of Greece. So why should it rename it's souhtern province to Greece?? There is no logic in that because that part was never known as part of Greece.


Yet you say you have no problem for a different ethnic group in a different country calling themselves Macedonians because it is only in a regional sense?
Isn't your sense of pride in your ethnicity enough reason to argue that you don't want Greeks to call themselves Macedonians, regardless if it is in a regional sense?

Why should i deny them the right to identify themselves as Macedonians in a regional sence?? Don't they live in the region Macedonia( many of them not that long but... :D :D)??


There is a different ethnic group in a different country who still want to identify with your ethnicity! I can't accept your generosity.

They identify only with the name of my etnicy!! Not with my etnicy. In ethnic way they will alwas remain Greeks. And i can asure you that when they go abroad and are asked what are you they anwser ,,Greeks or Greek Macedonians''. That is totaly enought to make a difference between us.

Look at this way. Americans are Americans. But the Mexicans are Americans too. If they want to call themselves Americans regionaly why should anyone make a fuss about it.

[Dimitar. M]

What ppl call you is only temporary. When ppl want to find out who you are they need not to look very far to find the truth as well.

Everything is temporary. But the thing is how long will that temporary last. 100 years, 200 years, 1000 years. :D :D

[kzk842]

Your comparison is wrong again. Macedonia as a region is this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_Balkans_Macedonia_geo.jpg

So everyone that lives in Macedonia(region) has the right to identify as a Macedonian( in a regional or ethnic way). Why shouldn't they??

On the other hand Bulgaria has no part of Greece. So why should it rename it's souhtern province to Greece?? There is no logic in that because that part was never known as part of Greece.



Why should i deny them the right to identify themselves as Macedonians in a regional sence?? Don't they live in the region Macedonia( many of them not that long but... :D :D)??



They identify only with the name of my etnicy!! Not with my etnicy. In ethnic way they will alwas remain Greeks. And i can asure you that when they go abroad and are asked what are you they anwser ,,Greeks or Greek Macedonians''. That is totaly enought to make a difference between us.

Look at this way. Americans are Americans. But the Mexicans are Americans too. If they want to call themselves Americans regionaly why should anyone make a fuss about it.

Because the Macedonians were always in Macedonia,we were always here and we do always knew that we Macedonians are a Greek tribe as the ancient Macedonians did..you the slavs came to this area about 6th and 7th century.
Of course you dont accept that even though that there is not even one small evidence that you have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians.

[Astoria]

Everything is temporary. But the thing is how long will that temporary last. 100 years, 200 years, 1000 years. :D :D

I'm glad you acknowledge it. I don't think you'll even last 15 more years.;)

[Hellas7]

Look at this way. Americans are Americans. But the Mexicans are Americans too. If they want to call themselves Americans regionaly why should anyone make a fuss about it.


Mexicans are Central Americans.


If a Mexican came up to you and said "i'm an American" which country would you associate him with?

Exactly....

[kostas68]

Aj aj Kostas. Everything is OK in this story, but you need to change the rolls. ;)
Look how nice the story fits in reality.
The bad queen( witch) thinks that she is the pritiest and that she has the only right to be that( like Greece thinks that she has the only right to the name Macedonia).
But now Snowwhite( Republic of Macedonia) apears and now the bad withc is angry because Snowwhite is pretier then her;)( in reality Greece is angry because everyone refers to the people in ROM as Macedonians, and doesn't refer to the Greeks as such(( look at Akritas post :D) )
Because the bad witch( Greece) can't believe in the situation in which she is, she decides to DESTROY, or let me be more moderate, to make Snowwhite uglier so that she can be most beautifull again.

Now i see you know the rest of the story so there is no point to continue.:)
Let me reveal the end of your story:The bad dragon(Albanians of FYROM) exasperated because Snowwhite bothers him requests from the magic mirror(USA) the permission to eat her.The magic mirror refuses,but the dwarfs (EU) smamsh him and allow the bad dragon to eat Snowwhite.Everything is adjusted and everybody is happy.

[Victor]

Mexicans are Central Americans.


If a Mexican came up to you and said "i'm an American" which country would you associate him with?

Exactly....THis is a very common mistake but Mexico is actually part of North AMerica.Everything south of MExico down to Panama is part of Central America.

The answer to your question would be USA,but it would never happen because a Mexican would always say he was a MExican.

[Dimitar. M]

Because the Macedonians were always in Macedonia,we were always here and we do always knew that we Macedonians are a Greek tribe as the ancient Macedonians did..you the slavs came to this area about 6th and 7th century.
Of course you dont accept that even though that there is not even one small evidence that you have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians.

This is the best part of your post.

there is not even one small evidence that you have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians

Thanks for telling us that. It's nice to hear it from you.:)

[Dimitar. M]

I'm glad you acknowledge it. I don't think you'll even last 15 more years.;)

Wishfull thinking that is.

[Dimitar. M]

Mexicans are Central Americans.


If a Mexican came up to you and said "i'm an American" which country would you associate him with?

Exactly....

Well you are Greek Macedonians.

If a Greek came up and said ,, i'm a Macedonian'' which country would he be associated with??

Exactly as Akritas cried about. :D :D :D

[Dimitar. M]

Let me reveal the end of your story:The bad dragon(Albanians of FYROM) exasperated because Snowwhite bothers him requests from the magic mirror(USA) the permission to eat her.The magic mirror refuses,but the dwarfs (EU) smamsh him and allow the bad dragon to eat Snowwhite.Everything is adjusted and everybody is happy.


In this kind of stories the bad witches never win. It will send a bad mesage to the children;).

But it's nice you understood how identical the story is with the reality :p:D :D

[Dimitar. M]

THis is a very common mistake but Mexico is actually part of North AMerica.Everything south of MExico down to Panama is part of Central America.

The answer to your question would be USA,but it would never happen because a Mexican would always say he was a MExican.

Why can't he call himself a American if he wants to?? He is free to do that if he wants to. And then he should blaim and ask from the Americans to change their etnicy since he can't identify as an ''American'' without being assosiated with USA. And the Americans as good neighbours should change their etnicy since they don't ocupy the whole terrytory of America. Is that right Akritas?? :rolleyes: :D :D

[akritas]

Why can't he call himself a American if he wants to?? He is free to do that if he wants to. And then he should blaim and ask from the Americans to change their etnicy since he can't identify as an ''American'' without being assosiated with USA. And the Americans as good neighbours should change their etnicy since they don't ocupy the whole terrytory of America. Is that right Akritas?? :rolleyes: :D :D
Like the absolut case ?

Americans have answer in your question;) (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/04/08/1207420359230.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/Skopian%20Propaganda%20against%20Greece/AngeredUS.jpg

I didnt forget you as regards the rests.

[Dimitar. M]

Like the absolut case ?

Americans have answer in your question;) (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/04/08/1207420359230.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/VariousTemporary/Skopian%20Propaganda%20against%20Greece/AngeredUS.jpg

I didnt forget you as regards the rests.

If you read carefull it has nothing to do with the Absolut case Votka.;)

And for the ,,Tito inspired map'' it shows the region of Macedonia and the zones of ocupation by the Axis in WW2. It has nothing to do with propaganda against Greece.:rolleyes:. If it was like that then why don't the Bulgarians and Albanians give a damn. Are you that paranoid??

[Victor]

Why can't he call himself a American if he wants to?? He is free to do that if he wants to. And then he should blaim and ask from the Americans to change their etnicy since he can't identify as an ''American'' without being assosiated with USA. And the Americans as good neighbours should change their etnicy since they don't ocupy the whole terrytory of America. Is that right Akritas?? :rolleyes: :D :DAnyone is free call himself whatever they want just as everyone is free to recognize it or not recognize it.
The USA would never offcially recognize a MExican national as an American,never mind that a MExican would never call himself a n American inthe first place.

[akritas]

That is a proof to show that we have iredentistic claims in our constitution? The Faculty of Philosophy is entitled to free interpretation of the ,,Strugle of the Macedonian people for independance and a national state''.
It has nothing to do with the constitution. The constitution has in itself very clear laws and obligations by which the country is ruled, and gues what it is not connected to what the profesors from the Faculty of Philosophy think.:rolleyes: Your reasoning is quite BAD regarding this mater
Your constitution is clear and basing according ASNOM historical decisions. Greek side requested via UN and since your creation as State to delete ALL the texts that have iredentistic claims.
Change of the Preamble is part of the UN talks.

But what UN talks, when Gruevski act as....

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9575/gruevski3tu9.jpg

He cant hide FYROM irredentism. Gruevski is no less also provocative at home. The leader of the opposition was recently sent to jail while the country’s moderate president, Branko Crvenkovski, has slammed the premier’s populism.


The name of the constitution is an internal mater in which UN or any other country can't interfear. Name for international use is another thing. Our goverment said clearly that we shouldn't extend the talks in something that is internal bussines. You wanted to do that, so now you have letters with Macedonian minority flowing.
As the Greek side is clearly,...one name for "erga omnes". As long as FYROM plays at being a crusader for nationalist fantasies, he will sink in the political morass. And as she sinks, FYROM is obvious act spasmodically and ridiculously. Greek side fortunely show patience. Only if FYROM gets serious can she negotiate a solution, one that will reflect the reality of the region and not harm the interests of either side. Until then, the price that the Slavmacedonian people will pay will be much greater than they think it is today.

What kind of a Macedonian are you?? Ethnic or regional?? With what group of people do you identify with?? Only with the Greek regional Macedonians or with all the Greeks??
For the last ,poor you. Buhu you can't call yourselve a Macedonian and not to be afiliated with us! What should we do know?? Change our etnicy so that your heart won't get broken??
The fact is you can identify as a Macedonian(regional or whatever) which is your right. But your identification shouldn't and musn't be an opsticle for others to identify as they want to. Stop acting like spoiled children. ''Momy momy when i tell people i'm Macedonian they think that i'm from ROM. Why is that mommy, why is that''?Cultural Macedonian...
Cultural Identity that is the mother of all. This that YOU FORGET ALWAYS.
My Macedonian cultural identity is not bargain.People have shifted identities and allegiances or relaxed their cultural boundaries according to changes brought about by history itself, or simply according to their personal economic and social interests. I am Greek you are Slav(despite that you deny your slavic heritage by adopted nationalist ideology like slavmacedonism)

How do we impede the right of your state?? You also can call yourselves as you wish, your region as you wish and your country as you wish! We are nor taking you that right.
And UN just acts only as a medijator for the TALKS between the countries. In the agreement it even doesn't say that a solution must be made.the problem is not the name of my state.
But is the name of your state.And the kernel of the problem is that FYROM policy has long been based on old agendas, eventually the oldest issue on the national priorities of the states in the region, namely irredentism and great idea aspiration. Greta example....Gruevski photo and FYROM text school books. (http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2008/07/fyrom-denies-ethnic-sovereignty-of.html)