Who is the greatest traitor of Greece??

[Ptolemy]

Before someone writes Bayevic let me clarify it.

Who's the politician/leader who has commited the greatest treason against Greece.

Let the fights begin.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

I'll start by saying Memnon. He was one great military leader who sold us out to the Persians. Such a leader could have helped Alexander conquer the world, instead, he fought for our enemies.

[Mygdonia]

Venizelos.

He signed the Bucharest Treaty in 1913.

He gave 20% of Makedonia to the Yugoslavs
He gave half of Epirus to Albania
He gave some of Thrace to Bulgars.
He nominated Ataturk for a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Ptolemy]

Venizelos.

He signed the Bucharest Treaty in 1913.

He gave 20% of Makedonia to the Yugoslavs
He gave half of Epirus to Albania
He gave some of Thrace to Bulgars.
He nominated Ataturk for a Nobel Peace Prize.


You forgot responsibility for the Asia Minor disaster.

[Istor]

Today, whoever calls SlavoSkopians as Macedonian

[Tsontos]

Venizelos was the greatest modern Greek politician. the monarchy...traitors isnt the right word....maybe clowns is the right word to describe the "Greek" monarchy

[Nikos]

Today, whoever calls SlavoSkopians as Macedonian

Well, I came before the dillema:
Either to be moron, or to be traitor.

[Tsontos]

remember what I told you about the car accident involving the guy with the high IQ niko?

offer still stands

[Istor]

Επομένως διάλεξες το δεύτερο έτσι;

Εγώ θα διάλεγα το πρώτο για να μην προδώσω την πατρίδα μου. Διότι μπορώ να αποδείξω ότι δεν είμαι μωρός και εν πάσει περιπτώσει δεν με νοιάζει τι πιστεύεις.

Αλλά είναι προφανές ότι δεν είσαι Έλληνας, έτσι ?? !!

[akritas]

Niko what is you opinion as about Dr Nakratzas ?

[Amarantos]

ΠΡΟΣΒΟΛΕΣ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΛΙΤΕΥΜΑΤΟΣ
ΠΡΟΔΟΣΙΑ ΤΗΣ ΧΩΡΑΣ
Άρθρο 138,Επιβουλή της ακεραιότητας της χώρας
1. Όποιος επιχειρεί με σωματική βία ή με απειλές σωματικής βίας να αποσπάσει από το ελληνικό κράτος έδαφος που ανήκει σ’ αυτό ή να συγχωνεύσει έδαφος του ελληνικού κράτους σε άλλη πολιτεία.
Άρθρο 139,Προσβολή εναντίον της διεθνούς ειρήνης της χώρας
1. Όποιος συνεννοείται ή διαπραγματεύεται με ξένη κυβέρνηση με σκοπό να προκαλέσει πόλεμο ή εχθροπραξίες εναντίον του ελληνικού κράτους ή κάποιου συμμάχου του.
Άρθρο 140
Όποιος με πράξεις εχθρικές, που η κυβέρνηση δεν τις εγκρίνει ή με μηχανορραφίες εκθέτει με πρόθεσή του το ελληνικό κράτος ή κάποιο σύμμαχό του σε κίνδυνο πολέμου ή εχθροπραξιών.
Άρθρο 141
Όποιος με πρόθεσή του και με οποιεσδήποτε ενέργειες εκθέτει το ελληνικό κράτος ή σύμμαχό του ή κατοίκους τους σε κίνδυνο αντιποίνων ή εκθέσει σε κίνδυνο διατάραξης φιλικές σχέσεις του ελληνικού κράτους ή συμμάχου του με ξένο κράτος.


OFFENCES ΤΟ THE POLITICAL SYSTEM
BETRAYAL OF THE COUNTRY
Article 138,Scheming of the integrity of the country
1. Whoever attempts with violence or with threats of violence to extract from the Greek state territory that belongs to it or to join territory of the Greek state in an other state.
Article 139,Offence against the international peace of the country
1. Whoever plans or negotiates with a foreign government with the purpose to cause war or hostilities against the Greek state or its allies.
Article 140
Whoever with hostile actions,that the government does not approve or with machinations,exposes intentionally the Greek state or its allies in danger of war or hostilities.
Article 141
Whoever intentionally and with any type of act,exposes the Greek state or its allies or the residents of the Greek state and the residents of its allies,to the danger of reprisals or exposes to the danger of perturbation of the friendly relations of the Greek state or its allies,with a foreign state.

So,who is a traitor?

[Nikos]

Niko what is you opinion as about Dr Nakratzas ?

I don't know, but I wouldn't do this job.

[Aristotelian]

Well since this topic was started before mine though id copy and oaste it here.....Greeks are the biggest traitors of HEllas.

Heres an article that once again backs my theory that Greeks themselves cause harm to the people of our nation!Our ancestors look down on us with such pride dont they?pft....Alexanders bones will be boiling right now.I hope to see all of them so called Greeks suffer given that nor the people of Greece or the politicians give a shit or ever have about our domestic problems.Slavs? You bet your fucken asses Greeks are slavs, i wouldnt epect this from a true Hellenic....read below.....fucken Americanised Jewish pigs.

Penalties for ET3's Intruders 22 Jun 2006 10:04:00





Sources: ANA

The Thessaloniki Three-Member Misdemeanours Court sentenced 44 youths to prison terms ranging from six to seven months. The youths, who are all members of extreme-right nationalistic groups Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) and Patriotiki Symmachia (Patriotic Alliance), faced trial after being arrested last Saturday for invading the facilities of state TV station ET3 in Thessaloniki, aiming to stop the airing of the programme.

After a lengthy hearing, the court announced the verdict late on Wednesday night, finding the 48 defendants – including 4 juveniles who were placed on parental custody – guilty of illegal possession of guns.

Seven of the defendants were sentenced to six months, given the extenuating circumstances of their young age and seeing that this was their first offence. The other 37 were sentenced to seven months and will also have to pay a fine, while the court once again acknowledged that this was their first offence.

The court acquitted the defendants of the changes of resisting arrest, breaching domestic peace, illegal violence and causing damages to property.

As per the bill of indictment, the youths had gathered at Nea Paralia on Saturday 17 June to stage a commemorative service for Alexander the Great. The police, however, drove them away, as the Anti-Racism Initiative rally was also taking place there at the same time. The defendants then marched towards the facilities of ET3 on Stratou Avenue, where they entered the building wearing helmets and holding poles, nails, crowbars and homemade shields. They demanded that the airing of the programme stops so the station could broadcast an announcement regarding them being banned from staging their event. The police intervened and 48 people were arrested.
__________________

[akritas]

I don't know, but I wouldn't do this job.
I know that you have read his work.Not directly. All the known geocities-tribod web sites written by Skopjan-Bulgarian-Turks and mention the suppossing Greek genocides against Bulgarian-Turkish and Slav-macedonian people came from his books. I made the question because you follow his ideas and his line regarding the miss-hellenism.

[Ellinas]

Well since this topic was started before mine though id copy and oaste it here.....Greeks are the biggest traitors of HEllas.

Heres an article that once again backs my theory that Greeks themselves cause harm to the people of our nation!Our ancestors look down on us with such pride dont they?pft....Alexanders bones will be boiling right now.I hope to see all of them so called Greeks suffer given that nor the people of Greece or the politicians give a shit or ever have about our domestic problems.Slavs? You bet your fucken asses Greeks are slavs, i wouldnt epect this from a true Hellenic....read below.....fucken Americanised Jewish pigs.

Penalties for ET3's Intruders 22 Jun 2006 10:04:00





Sources: ANA

The Thessaloniki Three-Member Misdemeanours Court sentenced 44 youths to prison terms ranging from six to seven months. The youths, who are all members of extreme-right nationalistic groups Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) and Patriotiki Symmachia (Patriotic Alliance), faced trial after being arrested last Saturday for invading the facilities of state TV station ET3 in Thessaloniki, aiming to stop the airing of the programme.

After a lengthy hearing, the court announced the verdict late on Wednesday night, finding the 48 defendants – including 4 juveniles who were placed on parental custody – guilty of illegal possession of guns.

Seven of the defendants were sentenced to six months, given the extenuating circumstances of their young age and seeing that this was their first offence. The other 37 were sentenced to seven months and will also have to pay a fine, while the court once again acknowledged that this was their first offence.

The court acquitted the defendants of the changes of resisting arrest, breaching domestic peace, illegal violence and causing damages to property.

As per the bill of indictment, the youths had gathered at Nea Paralia on Saturday 17 June to stage a commemorative service for Alexander the Great. The police, however, drove them away, as the Anti-Racism Initiative rally was also taking place there at the same time. The defendants then marched towards the facilities of ET3 on Stratou Avenue, where they entered the building wearing helmets and holding poles, nails, crowbars and homemade shields. They demanded that the airing of the programme stops so the station could broadcast an announcement regarding them being banned from staging their event. The police intervened and 48 people were arrested.
__________________

In the modern "greek" state, if communists and anachists try to , they are revolutionaries. If nationalists try to do the same they are fascists.

Do you know which were the "weapons" the court sentenced the youths for? The staffs of the Hellenic flags!!!! In the modern "greek" state, the Hellenic flags are weapons, while the Communist, anarchist or other disgusting flags are not.

[Tsontos]

YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF FACSISTS!!!YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF FACSISTS!!!YOUR ALL A BUNCH OF FACSISTS!!!

:p

seriously though those kids are pretty stupid. I wish they'd direct their patriotism in more productive avenues

[pankration]

Voulgaroktonos is right. The intent was good but reactionary. It doesn't help us when people try to make their point by force although quite frankly I commend them for their passion. Maybe we should all have more of it.

[Liakos]

In the XXth century for sure:

Dionysios Papadongonas.

He walked hand in hand with the devil.

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Voulgaroktonos is right. The intent was good but reactionary. It doesn't help us when people try to make their point by force although quite frankly I commend them for their passion. Maybe we should all have more of it.

I agree with our two members here. Furthermore, these kids have to be wary that the far right will manipulate them to do their dirty work (as would the far left).

[PhiliptheUniterchaeronea]

Here is a controversial one. Domesthenes, for his ridiculous Athenian snobby nonsense. That snobbery continues today. Ask any Greek cabbie from other parts of Greece.

[pankration]

Demosthenes can probably be credited for driving the Athenians to war with Philip. His "Philipics" are not a tirade against democracy but rather a personal attack on Philip. Considering that he was not even Athenian he had a lot of balls to attack the "barbarity" of Philip. It's ironic that he sent many men to their deaths, was responsible for the destruction of Thebes and alienated the Spartans. Was he a traitor? To a country, maybe not. But to the Hellenic ideal, definitely!

[ghost]

Εφιαλτιs

[HellenicPride]

It would definately have to be Venizelos.

[Makedonia25]

It would definately have to be Venizelos.

+1 :laugh:

[Euklid]

Guys, Venizelos????????????

Truly, wtf?


Venizelos, IS the Greatest Political Leader of Greece.

He expanded the State, he is the one who got Makedonia and Thrace as well as Smyrni and most of Asia Minor(Treaty of Sevres).

The Megali idea belongs to him.

The King lost Smyrni, and his actions were the ones responsible that led Venizelos to sign the Treaty of Lausanne.

Also, bear in mind that it is that treaty of Lausanne, that created the homogeneous state that we live in at the moment.

That is the reason that we have no ethnic minorities, as the Greeks( 2 million) came to fill up the grey zones in the disputed Northern areas.

They boosted the Greek Economy and Trade.


Eleftherios Venizelos, the greatest Political Leader of Greece and propably, one of the best in The World.

I hope that you are all being sarcastic about him.

[Mygdonia]

Bucharest Treaty has Venizelos signature on it. Teleia kai pavla.

Oh when the Turks knocked back the Treaty of Sevres, it required a soldier king to go and re-instate it, because venizelos was an outright gimp.

[Euklid]

The boundary line separating Greece from Bulgaria was drawn from the crest of Belasitsa to the mouth of the Mesta River (Greek name: Nestos River), on the Aegean Sea. This important territorial concession, which Bulgaria resolutely contested, in compliance with the instructions embraced in the notes which Russia and Austria-Hungary presented to the conference, increased the area of Greece from 25,014 to 41,933 square miles and her population from 2,660,000 to 4,363,000. The territory thus annexed included Epirus, southern Macedonia, Thessaloniki, Kavala, and the Aegean littoral as far east as the Mesta River, and restricted the Aegean seaboard of Bulgaria to an inconsiderable extent of 70 miles, extending from the Mesta to the Maritsa, and giving access to the Aegean at the inferior port of Alexandroupoli (Dedeagach). Greece also extended her northwestern frontier to include the great fortress of Janina. In addition, Crete was definitely assigned to Greece and was formally taken over on December 14, 1913.

I believe you are talking about this Treaty of Bucharest?

If yes, as you can see it was a victorious Treaty.

The only Treaty that was humiliating in a way for Greece, is the Lausanne one.

And, i repeat it was the King's fault, not Venizelos's.

And, please do not even compare a Bavarian King, with a noble Cretan democrat.

[akritas]

Venizelos make huge mistake at the WW I as also King Konstantinos at the Minor Asia Campaighn.

Anyway the biggest traitor for me was the Junda.

[Nikephoros]

Venizelos, biggest self serving idiot poltician of modern Greek history. He largely created the Asia Minor disaster through his incompetence.

[Truth Bearer]

Venizelos.

He signed the Bucharest Treaty in 1913.

He gave 20% of Makedonia to the Yugoslavs
He gave half of Epirus to Albania
He gave some of Thrace to Bulgars.
He nominated Ataturk for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Mygonia why do you blame Venizelos for "giving" away areas that we never had in the 1st place??!!!As Tsontos said Venizelos was the greatest politician Greece ever had.If it wasn't for him charming the west mate today you would be speaking Bulgarian........The Royalists created the Asia Minor disaster I mean really mate do you want to know or are you just going to put the blinkers up??We can discuss like civil people and I can produce you many facts about how the Royalists totally fucked up!!

[Mygdonia]

Oh, you sound like you know it all.. I pity you for knowing very little of the "apokryfa".. you know?

..If it wasn't for Venizelos we would be speaking Bulgarian..now I will say what they say in the classic "you idiot".

[Mygdonia]

Venizelos did not give a FVCK of Macedonia... go read it up!

[Truth Bearer]

I can't believe how you people blame Venizelos for all our fuck ups??!!!
Go read any book and you will see that Venizelos was a true patriot and visionary who wanted to bring Greece to the West.If we had listened to the traitorous royalists today there would be no Greece as they wanted to join their brethren Germans in WWI.Venizelos unified the Balkan states against the Ottomans if we had waited for the royalists today we would be facing a greater Albania.How quickly some people forget the efforts one man put for his country and to shame you all for even calling hima traitor!!Are you aware of his guerilla activities in Crete before it's independance?How many Turks he killed as a leader of the resistance?Please go read any books on the Balkans and yuou will understand that what you are saying is proposterous unless you are a royalist then you will have hatred for this great man of HELLAS!!!!
Shame on you for even putting him in the same level as Ephialtes.

[Truth Bearer]

Mygdonia if he didn't why did he make Thessaloniki his capital??Pls obviously you have blind hatred for the man and as we can see you are also a blind apologist for the german/danish royal family who should be put down as the biggest disgrace for Hellenism.MYGDONIA please go read a book Stavrianos comes to mind great read and very insightfull.

[Reaper]

Greatest traitors? Every greek who converted voluntarily to Islam under the Ottomans. Every Greek communist. That dickhead from Neos Cosmos in Aus who called me names, told greeks to not bring greek flags to the football game ect and now is acting a patriot to get votes.

[Tsontos]

Venizelos did not give a FVCK of Macedonia... go read it up!

Ο Ελευθέριος Βενιζέλος ως πρωθυπουργός, σε ομιλία του πριν την έναρξη των Βαλκανικών Πολέμων 1912- 1913 εξαίρει τη σημασία του Μακεδονικού Αγώνα και υποδεικνύει το χρέος, να αποδοθεί τιμή σε όλους τους συντελεστές του: « Ο ΜΑ επιβάλλουν λόγοι εθνικοί να γίνει το ευαγγέλιον της ελληνικής φυλής. ..Αξίζει να στεφανωθεί ο αμυντικός εθνικός εκείνος αγώνας, ο οποίος έσβησε την ντροπήν του 1897, διότι το παράδειγμα των ηρωικών εθελοντών εξύπνησε και αναθάρρησε ολόκληρο το αποθαρρημένον Έθνος. Να γιατί πρέπει να τιμούνται πρωτοπόροι άπαντες εκείνοι, για καθαρούς εθνικούς μελλοντικούς σκοπούς και για παράδειγμα των μεταγενεστέρων[11]»

[Truth Bearer]

Mygdonia I don't want to argue with you nor abuse you we can discuss this with Hellenic civility or if you want gutter language it's your call mate.....I challenge you to provide facts of your claims and I will provide facts of my claims.I do not have any issues with Royalists if people feel the need to worship or bow down like a slave to a foreign ruler it's their call I will as a proud HELLENE never bow nor worship an ideology that is foreign to my Hellenic ideals.VENIZELOS was a HELLENE a true HELLENE who sacrificed his life for Mother Hellas.No man is born superior to me and no man has the right to rule me by birth.
So are you up to the challenge Mygdonia?

[Mygdonia]

I dont want to discuss it because it's pointless. You don't have a clue.

[Mygdonia]

I'll just say one thing:

Many files need to be opened that are hidden from the Greek public. The treason Venizelos caused against the Greek state is enormous.

From the assasination of Ion Dragoumis to abandoning the Smyniotes [due to the Turks rejecting the Treaty of Sevres and Venizelos goes into HIDING] to voting Ataturk for a Nobel Peace Prize!

Do you have any idea how Florina was liberated??????

Do you know why he abandoned Pelagonia and why he signed the Treaty of Bucharest????

Did you know how many Greeks lived in Gevgelia and why was it abandoned?

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/a332a.jpg

Did you know how many Greeks lived in Monastiri and why was it abandoned without a fight?

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/b34141b.jpg

Did you know how many Greeks lived in Melenikos and why was it abandoned without a fight?

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/b34141c.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/media/original/b4421a.jpg

[Truth Bearer]

So I don't have a clue eh??And I suppose you do??You my friend are a blind royalist who believes in this rouyalist conspiracy theories.Whether you accept it or not your heroes the danish royal family sold out Hellas many times over and if it wasn't for Venizelos today you would be speaking BULGARIAN face it it was Venizelkos that pushed the Macedonian issue it was Venizelos that made us support the allies against the Germans in WWI it was Venizelos that charmed both Cleamenceu and Lloyd George so we can land our troops in Smyrna as peace keepers it was Venizelos that had the whole Thrace under Greek control.He never sold out the Nth Epirotes as they the Albanians with Italy's support convinced Wilson to grant them that land.
It was the Royalists who claimed peace and to bring our boys back home in the election of 1920 and then when they won the reversed their decision.Are you aware of that Mr Mygdonia??This "apokryfa" you claim is a royalist set up to discredit Venizelos.These so called books are a fabrication(royalist propaganda) so little ignorant people like you can believe such rubbish.It was made for the poor peasants of northern Greece so as to confuse them and turn against our great Hellene Venizelos.You my friend seem to listen to old wives tales about conspiracies agaisnt your "great" German masters you claim your a Hellene yet you bow to a foreigner who's only loyalty is to the aristocracy of Europe.True Hellenes never BOW to NO ONE mate.We are our own masters never have never will.Go read a book mate and then come and talk to me about what yr grandfather told you as a bed time story.

[Truth Bearer]

Ion Dragoumis great Greek he was an apologist for the Ottomans,Are you aware that he wanted unification with the Turks??Are you aware that Dragoumis believed in a muliti cultrual state living side by side with the Turks??His dream was Constantinople as the capital of Hellenistic Ottomania??Venizelos was in hospital when they executed Dragoumis since he broke a curfew and was under suspision since he was one of only 2 people that knew where Venizelos poria was during his stay in Paris.Pelagonia with Monastiri was taken by the serrbs during the 1st Balkan War our choice at the time was either Thessaloniki or Monastiri which one would you have preferred mygdonia??

[Truth Bearer]

Ok lets see what they say about Ion Dragoumis and how your king handled issues during WWI...
Ion Dragoumis (Greek: Ίων Δραγούμης) (September 2, 1878–July 31, 1920) was a Greek diplomat, writer and revolutionary.

Born in Athens, Dragoumis the son of Stephanos Dragoumis who was foreign minister under Charilaos Trikoupis. The family originated in Vogatsiko in Kastoria. Ion's great grandfather, Markos Dragoumis (1770-1854), was a member of the Filiki Eteria revolutionary organisation. He studied law at Athens University and, in 1899, entered the diplomatic branch of the Greek Foreign Ministry. In 1897, he enlisted in the Greek Army and fought in the Greco-Turkish War of 1897.

In 1902, Dragoumis was made deputy consul in the Greek consulate at Bitola. In 1903 he became head of the consulate at Serres and later went on to serve in Plovdiv, Burgas, Alexandria and Alexandroupolis. In 1907 he was assigned to the embassy in Istanbul.

Dragoumis became instrumental in the Macedonian Struggle. In Macedonia a new Filiki Eteria was founded, under the leadership of Anastasios Picheon from Ochrid, whilst in Athens, the Macedonian Committee was formed in 1904 by Dragoumis' father, Stephanos Dragoumis.

In 1907 he published the book Martyron kai Iroon Aima (Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Blood)

In 1909 the Goudi Revolt broke out and his father, Stephanos Dragoumis became Prime Minister of Greece. However, the force behind the new Prime Minister was Eleftherios Venizelos.

When the First Balkan War broke out, Dragoumis travelled to Thessaloniki as an attaché to Crown Prince (later King) Constantine.

In 1915, he resigned from the diplomatic corps and entered Greek politics as an independent. As an independent was elected to the Greek Parliament for Florina Prefecture. In that same year he was exiled to Corsica as a result of a disagreement with King Constantine I, who refused to enter World War I even though the Bulgarian Army had occupied a large part of eastern Macedonia.
On July 30, 1920 an attempt was made to assassinate Venizelos at the Gare de Lyon train station in Paris. The next day, July 31, Dragoumis was stopped by policemen loyal to Venizelos and was executed as an accomplice to the assassination attempt.

Now tell me sir why did your king stagnate about Macedonia when according to you the krauts was a Greek patriot??!!!

[Mygdonia]

Ion Dragoumis wanted unification with the Turks....You're out of your mind.
Go and discuss this with a scholar of modern Greek history

I can't be bothered.

You post absolute nonsense.

Sorry, it's the truth.

Bye.

[Mygdonia]

WHo liberated Macedonia is the leaders, the generals who led Greece into war, the same war Venizelos chickened out.

Yes the commanding officer of the Greek army that ordered Greece to fight in Macedonia was the King.

I can't be bothered.

[makedon]

Just to start a debate and get you guys thinking.

This may be a shocker.

Alexander The Great.

Empire builders destroy countries and people , and that is what happened. His own patriotic Royal Guard killed him.
I believe it.

Before the attack on me begins just know, I do know history, Hammonds work, the Hellenistic Kingdoms,
Christianity, Ptolemaic Egypt and its significance.

Fact is Rome could never have done to Macedonia and Greece what it did if it was not for Alexander not stopping with the fulfillment of his obligations to Greece as elected Hegemon and consolidating and building, becoming stronger, instead he did the exact opposite, bled and destroyed a whole generation of Macedonians and their motherland, the world would be a very different and better place, including Greece, including Europe, all the advancements during the Hellenistic Age would of been greater, some Hellenistic Kingdoms fought each other, think Hanukah. The entire world would be very different.
NWO globalist stooges would not have started major wars in Europe during the 20th century. Greece would not have been smashed over and over, and your points above would all be moot, they would not have come to pass. Not to mention all the other invasions, Constantinople would still be Constantinople.

Okay be gentle.:huh:

No swear words, you might get banned.:p

Ask your selves why Greece, one of the oldest and most successful civilizations only has 10 million citizens with borders that are smaller than they were 2500 years ago ?

Think of what could of been. Where did it start ?

Building Empire destroys your nation, we all know that.
The USA is next.

[Truth Bearer]

I'll give you some facts because really you a BLIND as a bat.
In 1910 Eleftherios Venizelos, born in Ottoman ruled Crete, and founder of the liberal party, becomes the prime-minister. Venizelos is the kind of leader that comes around once in a generation and it is not a coincidence that this is the period of the greatest growth for Greece. In October of 1912 the first Balkan War breaks out with Greece, Serbia, Montenegro and Bulgaria attacking Turkey. A month later Thessaloniki is captured and becomes part of Greece. In March of 1913 King George is assassinated in Thessaloniki and is succeeded by Constantine I. In July during Balkan Wars 2, Bulgaria attacks Greece and Serbia and is beaten. The two victors split Macedonia. Venizelos is hailed as Europe's most charismatic statesman but in Greece he has his passionate followers and there are those who just as passionately hate him, including King Constantine whose sympathies are undoubtedly with the Kaiser and the Germans, though he claims to wish Greece to remain neutral in the war. Venizelos resigns and then in June is re-elected, returns to power only to be forced to resign again in October. In the December elections his followers abstain and Venizelos establishes a provisional government of the New Hellas in Thessaloniki. The Royalists in Old Hellas are attacked and then blockaded by the French and British who want Greece to enter the war with Germany on their side. In the end King Constantine escapes from Greece, though he does not abdicate the throne, and is replaced by George's second son Alexander who is more acceptable to the French and British. The Venizelist Parliament of June 1915 is recalled and dubbed 'The Lazarus Chamber' because it has been awakened from the dead.
At the start of the 20th century Greece's navy is obsolete, consisting of three old battleships and some torpedo boats. In the shipyards at Livorno, Italy is a battleship which has been ordered by the Italian Navy and then cancelled. The Greek government buys the ship and it is christened the Averoff after the wealthy benefactor George Averof. The ship rules the northeast Aegean during the Balkan wars and is an important part in the liberation of Mount Athos and the islands of Limnos, Thasos, Samothraki, Tenedos, Aghios Eustratios, Mitilini, and Chios. The power of this ship and the success at sea keeps the Sultan from challenging the Greek Navy and keeps the Turkish fleet out of the Aegean. The Jewel of the Hellenic fleet was destined to sail through history, through the two world wars with greater glory than any other Naval vessel in the history of the Hellenic Navy.
In Turkey the decaying Ottoman Empire is continuing a policy that could be called the Turkization of Asia Minor. In 1909 Armenians are massacred in Adana, Tarsus and other towns of Cilicia. Among the 30.000 Armenian dead are a handful of American missionnaries. In 1912 the Turkish army loots the villages of Didymotichon and Adrianopoli districts. Villages of the Malgara district are burnt as well as Kessani and a number of assassinations and massacres accompany the destruction and looting in this predominantly Greek region of Eastern Thrace. A year later the Turkish army commits atrocities and massacres of Greeks in the same area killing more than 15,000. In May of 1914 the Turkish authorities at Pergamum command all Christians to leave the town within two hours. The terrorized inhabitants cross over to the Greek island of Mytilini. That same year the Turkish government creates forced labor battalions made up of Greek-Ottoman citizens who are drafted into the Turkish army. Thousands die or disappear.

Armenian intellectuals and prominent national Armenian leaders in Constantinople and the provinces are arrested and deported to Anatolia. Many are slain on the road. The Armenian soldiers who are in the Turkish army are disarmed and massacred by thousands. The Armenian population is forced to march to exile in the Syrian desert. Tens of thousands die or are killed and massacred by the Turkish Army and civilians along the way. In all over a million and a half Armenians die during this period. The Turks also begin persecution against the Syrian Orthodox and Nestorians living in Hakkari, Mardin and Midyat regions, their deaths equaling that of the Armenians. Of 16,750 Pontian Greeks who are forced to leave their villages and march east towards Syria, only some 500 survive.

In 1918 the Armenians who have been fighting the Turks are victorious and proclaim the Independent Armenian Republic, which Turkey recognizes. In August 1920 the treaty of Sevres provides an independent Armenia, self determination for Kurdistan and liberation of Eastern Thrace and Smyrna. President Woodrow Wilson declares the right for self-determination of all peoples of Asia Minor. But a month later Nationalist Turkish forces attack Armenia.. The Armenian defeat is followed by a general massacre and the annexation of one half of the independent Armenia to Turkey.

At the 1918 Paris Peace Conference Venizelos lobbies hard for an expanded Hellas including the large Greek communities in Northern Epirus, Thrace and Minor Asia. In 1919 Greek troops are sent by the victorious allies to the beautiful and multi-ethnic city of Smyrna in Asia Minor to 'protect' Greek citizens but in reality to serve as a buffer between the Italian army which is advancing up the southern Turkish coast and the British who are in Constantinople, (Istanbul). What is known as 'To Megali Idea' or The Great Idea of a new Hellenic Empire on both sides of the Aegean looks like it is about to become a reality. (see map) Even the major powers are behind it and in the Treaty of Sevres create a Greece of Two Continents and Five Seas. But in October of 1920 King Alexander (photo) is bitten by his favorite monkey in the Royal Gardens, and dies. It is a monkey bite that changes the course of Greek history.
Venizelos would rather declare a republic and be done with kings but knows that this would not be acceptable to the European powers. Despite the national triumph of Smyrna he loses the elections in November of 1920 and leaves the country. A month later a royalist-rigged election calls for the return of King Constantine. The Greek Army which has secured Smyrna and the Asia Minor coast is purged of Venizelos supporters while it marches on Ankara. Little known to the Greeks, the Italians and Russians are selling arms to the Nationalist Turks under Kemal Attaturk and the British and French have negotiated a separate peace, realizing that the Ottoman empire is dead and the Nationalists are the new face of Turkey. After being encouraged by their European 'friends' the Greek Army finds itself isolated in central Turkey. They are defeated by the forces of Kemal Attaturk and forced to flee to the shores of the Aegean. In their wake they bring with them thousands of Greek and Christian citizens of the Ottoman empire who fear that the advancing Turks will massacre them. While the French, British, US and Russian fleets watch in the harbor, waiting to sign contracts with the new Turkish government, the city of Smyrna is burned. Approximately 30,000 people are murdered in Smyrna, among them the Greek Orthodox Archbishop Chrysostomos who had been hacked to death by a frenzied mob.

[Truth Bearer]

Makedon who ever said we had borders back then?We were city states there was no country called Greece just a land of Hellenes but never unified as a state mate.That was until Alexander III who unified us by force as Hegemon of Hellenes.His actual title was Alexander III King of all Hellenes.So lets get that straight.And yes I also believe he was poisoned.

[Mygdonia]

I am not interested in juvenile copy & pastes. Try it on the Skops they might find it amusing..not to myself.

Here is non- copy and pastes.

..and the treason on Cyprus, Thrace, Epirus, Macedonia, Smyrniotes.

Venizelos recieved an offer from Sir Francis Elliot on 1915 directly to Venizelos. Since the Allies wanted Bulgaria to enter the War they were asking from Greece to give Kavalla to the Bulgarians in exchange for "siginificant" territorial contributions on the coastal Asia Minor, towards the side of Smyrna (and maybe Cyprus).

A few months later: the Russian Sazonof declares that the fate of Konstantinoupolis had been decided by the Allies and that the entering of any Greek Army Unit in the City would have been unacceptable. But at the same time, without a day everybody began talking about the fact that maybe England might be willing to offer Cyprus to Greece, causing a second reaction by Sazonof, declaring that such solution "was not to be considered a wishfull one". This offer appears to have been invalid.

German diplomacy was offering Cyprus "indirectly" to the *traitor* King Konstantine this time, (according to a telegram dated July 1914, posted on the White Bible in 1917). The deal was this: In case Greece was going on the German side, and since Bulgaria was already with Germany, Greece could not receive Thrace, however Greece was to receive "Serbian" Makedonia as well as the lands in Northern Epirus,all the way to Aylona.
It was *understood* betweeen Theotokis and the German Foreign Minister, that as soon as England was to be defeated, Germany was to offer Cyprus to Greece.

In the last years of the 20s, the first attempts for Unification between Cyprus and Greece had began, in order to be a final denial of such a possibility by the Greek goverment in 1931. (Check with regards the "Freedom" people).

In all the above cases Venizelos was involved one way or another. But his treason is not just against Makedonia, Pelagonia, Thrace and later Asia Minor and Konstantinoupolis itself, when he participated in the Lausanne treaty when he shouldn't have been even close in there.

His treason is that him and his people created the great DIVISION among the Hellenes, a division to continue even when the Royals were not around.

This list I do not believe is the proper place to discuss his *reasons* [because you have pople like yourself reading it and you are largely ignorant to Greek history]. Many were saying he was going or already had become mad. One thing for sure, when Lord Carzon that Novemever reached him in Lausanne asking him to intervene to save the lives of Gounaris, Protopapadakis, Baltatzis, Stratos, Theotokis, and Chatzanestis, he replied that he had no power to intervene. Six years later he himself declared their execution *a mistake*.

That, and the assasination of Ion Dragoumis, by his Cretan mob, guided by Kitsos, ordered by Gyparis his ex companion-in-arms with Dragoumis, show just part of "Venizelismos".

Too many files need to be opened, for the last 100 years, for the last 70 years, for the last 50 years even for the last 25 years, entire generations we were raised with LIES. The truths just begin to come out.

STAY TUNED.

[Truth Bearer]

You really don't even bother to read anything that might change your view mygdonia.You really are well what can I say.....The 6 had to go because it was them that instigated the march to Ankara.So as far as I'm concerned the only fuik up he did was not also executing that other traitor
Prince Alexander.Now lets be serious and really you do have a problem Venizelos believed that the Entente would have won the war so he had to back one or the other so he CORRECTLY backed the winner.Or do you think that the Germans would have won the war with Greece on their side?I mean really can anyone be that STUPID??Then again I suppose sadly for you little people ingnorance has always been your curse hasn't it mygdonia?Learn to open your eyes and not be fooled by propagandists who still today push us the roaylist envelope.Your leader Konstantine had already sold out yr land to your mates the Bulgarians as he gave a fuk he was prop German his loyalty was never to Mother Hellas.Can't u see that??If Venizelos had sided with Germany do you think we would have kept all that land we were promised??Wake up Oustralia vre xipna!!!

[Nikephoros]

About the Asia Minor Diasaster:

The second Venizelos accepted the Smyrna mandate, it was doomed to failure and a disaster for the Greek nation. First off the territory of the Mandate was dictated by the Western Allies, a French General named Milne. The Greek army was stationed to protect this Smyrna mandate, but they could not cross the Milne line without Allied permission, since really it was Greece acting on Allied mandate. To the Greek people Venizelos lied and presented this mandate which did not de-facto hand over Smyrna to Greece as a victory a Greece of "two continents and of five seas". He also presented the issue to the Greek people as if the Turks would accept this, mandate without a fight!

Turks and all muslim nations, are impossible to have peace with:
"Among classical [Islamic] jurists (Shaybani 1966 ;Tabari 1990. 15-6 ; Ibn Rushd 1995, 656), the peace between dar al-lslam [abode of peace] and Dar al-harb [abode of war] means the temporary suspension of military conflict. Despite their disagreement on the duration of a peace treaty, Muslim jurists are in accord on the provisional status of peace with non-believers. The term used is "hudna" meaning "truce" or "armistice". This view is totally consistent with the principle of total war against polytheism that we discussed above."

From the Canadian Thesis:
(http)amicus.collectionscanada.ca/s4-bin/Main/ItemDisplay?l=0&l_ef_l=0&id=&v=0&lvl=1&coll=18&rt=1&itm=25934730&rsn=pdfsearch.tmp&all=1&dt=PD+|jihad|&spi=-&rp=1&vo=1
"Islam and War : the disparity between the technological-normative evolution of modern war and the doctrine of Jihad"
pg. 115 but on my PDF reader it is pg. 134


So Venizelos put the Greek military in a huge quagmire by blowing the resources of Greece and its military for a mandate on Smyrna when we should have taken most of East Thrace and other areas that can actually be defended, instead of having a small indefensible chunk of Anatolia surronded on all sides by hostile muslims amalgamating into a fanatic Turkish nationalism, who are wholly incapable of having peace with their neighbors.

Because of the Dixasmos he created with his second government in Thessaloniki he had to present huge gains by going into WWI and he did this with the blunder of the Smyrna mandate which forced the Greek army to defend an area with no depth of defence surronded by millions of fanatic muslims(becoming Turkish) who could retreat and exhaust the Greek military.

[Truth Bearer]

This list I do not believe is the proper place to discuss his *reasons* [because you have pople like yourself reading it and you are largely ignorant to Greek history.

Listen you ignorant palio vlahe you have no idea who or what I know about my Hellenic history so unless you want me to expose you as being totally STUPID and a peasant that you are pls lets refrain from abuse little boy ok??Can you handle that buddy??You are a die hard MONARCHIST who has no shame in submitting yr loyalty to any 2 bob idiot who happens to wear a crown over his head.It really shows that you are an inferior human being that BLINDLY accepts a King because why mygdonia?You aren't a Hellene but a poor peasant only they through their IGNORANCE would accept a crown.So you go reading the "apokryfa" which is a total flawed propaganda book and your proud of that??!!I ask you Mygdonia if you were leader of the Hellenic Republic who would you have backed in WWI???

[Tsontos]

To the Greek people Venizelos lied and presented this mandate which did not de-facto hand over Smyrna to Greece as a victory a Greece of "two continents and of five seas". He also presented the issue to the Greek people as if the Turks would accept this, mandate without a fight!
.

The reason he proclaimed it as a huge victory and the reason it was a huge victory was that Sevres stipulated that a plebiscite was to be held on unification with Greece after a certain period (2 years from memory).

Greece would have easily held onto Smyrna, it was the Anatolia campaign which was the mistake, for which he shares partial blame.

[Truth Bearer]

Venizelos believed in Lloyd George who had told him that Greece would get Constantinople within 5 years as long as they the Greeks towed the line.Venizelos major fuk up was that in time of stress for Greece he called the elections.Venizelos never after the agreement he made with the English and French was going to march to Ankara.We had the whole of Thrace and the Asia Minor coast what else did you want??Metaxas in his report dated 1916 had warned that a march to Ankara was doomed to failure as the supply lines with bad weather would have created the worst disaster for any army since Napoleon's march to Moscow.Yet the Monarchists saw fit to ignore Metaxas,The Great Powers and went for glory not realizing the treacherous Italians(again) and Russians were already working with Kemal Moustafa.So please when you accuse someone lets know the facts before we hang them.

[Truth Bearer]

The reason he proclaimed it as a huge victory and the reason it was a huge victory was that Sevres stipulated that a plebiscite was to be held on unification with Greece after a certain period (2 years from memory).

Greece would have easily held onto Smyrna, it was the Anatolia campaign which was the mistake, for which he shares partial blame.


Venizelos never wanted an Anatolia campaign he needed to tow the line and he believed that Smyrna and Constantinople would be Greek within 2 to 5 years through plebiscite.

[Nikephoros]

The Anatolian campaign was necessary because the chete guerillas all over Anatolia and Turkish National Forces had no respect for the mandate and they were making constant attacks to the Greek force and retreating behind the Milne line. Just like Turkey today as well has no respect for any Greek territory. Read the quote about the muslim concept of hudna.

(You will have to edit this link since I cannot post links yet)
(http)i166.photobucket.com/albums/u94/NikephorosPhokas/185chanak.jpg
Walder, David. "The Chanak Affair.", The MacMillan Co. (UK, 1969) 185.

France and Italy never even ratified Sevres in their respective Parliaments, yet the Greek military was asking permission from the combined Allies which included these two countries, for permission to pursue military objectives to secure the Smyrna Mandate(not annexation)! The situation was a hugely tragic joke and shows how stupid Venizelos was. The Greek state and military did not have full operational control of our own Greek military, because we had to ask for Allied permission to sneeze while the Allies more and more each day capitulated to the Turkish naitonalists.

You need to read more, you have no idea what you are talking about. I could have just as clueless a conversation about this issue with Turks.

[Mygdonia]

The reason he proclaimed it as a huge victory and the reason it was a huge victory was that Sevres stipulated that a plebiscite was to be held on unification with Greece after a certain period (2 years from memory).

Greece would have easily held onto Smyrna, it was the Anatolia campaign which was the mistake, for which he shares partial blame.

The Anatolian campaign was NOT a mistake..it was a strategic mistake as the supply line was too long from Smyrna to Anatolia. Yes, we should have garrisoned Smyrna and let all the other Greeks i.e Pontians rot. Make NO mistake; we HAD to go in there and fight.

[Victor]

Venizelos never wanted an Anatolia campaign he needed to tow the line and he believed that Smyrna and Constantinople would be Greek within 2 to 5 years through plebiscite.
SUppose that happened,what wwas the plan for the the Pontians?
Dont want to get too much into this debate but youd be surprised how many of my older relatives are(or were) pro-royalist.

[Truth Bearer]

So what do we do we can't keep everyone happy what would be the solution I ask you??

[Nikephoros]

From my knowledge the best solution would be instead of accepting the Smyrna mandate, let the Turks have Constantinople and small indefencible hinterland in European Thrace, this would reverse the situation onto the Turkish shoulders. Greece should take the rest of Thrace from the Ottoman Empire except for a small chunk. It would also actually give more Greece options.

Then use the significant muslim population under Greek dominion to pressure Turkey. Let them know clearly, if they do something to Christians we retaliate to the substantial muslim population in Greek territory and in addition we begin military campaigns against their position on the European side of Constantinople which has no depth for defence and blockade them. Also pressure friendly Christian Balkan states to threaten to the Turks behind the scenes that their muslim population will face hard times if they massacre any Christian under their dominion. Even hostile Balkan states like Bulgaria would even maybe accept to use this issue as a pretext to expel or harm their muslim minority(unless at the time they want good relations with the Turks).

I think the above solution would have been the only viable solution to work under the circumstances but the Greek politicans are ignorant, divisive, hugely self-serving and dumb.

[Mygdonia]

Another Venizelos stroke of *genious*

The GREAT retreat of Mathaiopoulos of the 5th division while he was just 10km away from Monastiri, The Turkish counter-attack [6th & 7th army corps] under Zeki Pasha, which was helped enormously in his decision with 20,000 gold coins[according to others, Tzavet Pasha was the recipient], given to him by the Russian consul in the name of the Russian state [details in volume B, page 73-74, Thlemaxos Katsougiannhs book "Peri twn Vlachwn twn Ellhnikwn Xwrwn", straight from my fathers vast library] and the Bucharest agreement DONATING Pelagonia to the Serbs...if "Truth Bearer" knew about the Florence protocol and how we lost North Epirus [as well as how an ALbanian state was created], if he knew about the fact that Venizelos recognized the Vlachs of Epirus as a ROUMANIAN minority, additionally placing them under Roumanian church WITHOUT THEIR WILL.

According to Korolidis he didn;t have the power to do or take similar decisions. If Truth Bearer knew about the letter to the Nobel Prize commitee, requesting that the Nobel Prize for Peace [sic] should be given to Kemal Ataturk and if he knew few more things, how Cyprus ended up in English hands, bought from Turkey.

Venizelos had a dream, a dream to enter Konstantinoupolis, and in order to see his dream being realized he made alliances with the devil, promising or at least not caring for half of Greece, leaving it to the Serbs-Bulgarians and Roumanians.

The funny thing is, that many of these things can not be found in the "Venizelos Foundation". For example I didn't even see the letter for Ataturk's candidancy.

His supporters insist that he gave away Pelagonia in order to save Thessaloniki. I say, we could have BOTH, let alone of course the fact that the Greek Army had not intentions even arriving in Florina, they were playing games in Amyntaion, with no intentions moving any farther North.(Who was responcible for that? )


What brought them in there was the decision by the Turks of Florina to ask that the city had to be surrended to Greek hands, because it was taken from Greek hands.

The treason against Makedonia had started back when the English Royal House decided to give Makedonia as "dowry" to the Bulgarians, to their cousin Ferdinand, of the same blood with Tzar Nicolas of Russia and our King George.

The treason had began when two of the four officers send in Makedonia for "recognition" wrote a different report for the situation in there and about the Makedonian people, (the reason for which Pavlos Melas was challenged in duel by Kolokotronis after Melas insulted him for his report).

And of course not to forget that the Bulgarians were receiving any kind of help from ATHENS, yes from ATHENS.

There are many hidden truths in our "apokryfa" books Mr. Truth Bearer, try to find some of them, you'll understand many things of today's political situations.

...as for Cyprus, on Venizelos part it is the greatest, and I mean greatest stunt of all time. The man was an absolute idiot or a blatant traitor. One thing is for sure, I hope he sees the Cypriot situation today and continues to roll in his grave!

[Tsontos]

Venizelos never wanted an Anatolia campaign he needed to tow the line and he believed that Smyrna and Constantinople would be Greek within 2 to 5 years through plebiscite.

Venizelos had already drawn up the first plans for the campaign before he was defeated in the elections:

"It is well to record that the first steps towards disaster were taken by Venizelos before he fell. It was on his orders that the Greek army began to advance into the interior".

Woodhouse, A Short History of Greece, 1968, p205

I still think that the campaign would have resulted in catastrophe were Venizelos still in charge, but it didnt help the fact that once the royalists took power they removed all the seasoned officers in Asia Minor and replaced them with royalist officers who has spent their last years skiing in Switzerland.

Venizelos wasnt perfect, but he was far from a traitor to Greece. There will always be children of royalists who think so, but they are blind.

[Truth Bearer]

Mygdonia get your head out of the toilet mate you really are DELUSIONAL.I see no point it debating with you as you don't even bother to read what anyone else writes.You keep reading mythology and really get yr head screwed inside out.

[Mygdonia]

I am sorry of you can't handle the truth Mr "Truth Bearer"

[Truth Bearer]

I don't have an issue with the truth I have an issue when people my fellow Greeks bow to a german king who really has no idea what it is to be a Hellene.I know that Venizelos wasn't perfect and like any other man he had faults.But when you compare him to that danish/german family of pseudo aristocrats then sadly and tragically you are wrong.They showed clearly where their "ethnic" loyalties laid in both world wars can't you see that?

[masolord]

Today, whoever calls SlavoSkopians as Macedonian

hahahaha

one of my Greek friend calls me macedonian in front of me:cool:
i don't know what he does behind my back but i sure he wouldn't do anything silly in front of me because he knows the consequences :rolleyes:

[olvios]

hahahaha

one of my Greek friend calls me macedonian in front of me:cool:
i don't know what he does behind my back but i sure he wouldn't do anything silly in front of me because he knows the consequences :rolleyes:

He must be a commie or an idiot.:p

[masolord]

He must be a commie or an idiot.:p

maybe but still he is a good friend :)

[olvios]

Then he is an idiot if he was such a good friend he would try to bring you out the Skopian fantasy.

[masolord]

Then he is an idiot if he was such a good friend he would try to bring you out the Skopian fantasy.

i think he also wants to be in the skopian fantasy:p

[makedon]

Hey TB, you need to take it easy a bit on the language.

What neither of you are discussing is the outside powers
and the pressure they exerted on Venizelos and other
politicians then and all the way to now.

Looking at history it is amazing how many times policies
and sides changed, pro Greece, con, pro Ottoman, con.
From many outside world powers, you think non of this had an effect on Greek decisions/policies/actions.

Greece penetrating central Turkey was
probably a setup by the Great Powers.

Who and what was the British Empire ?
What about France, even before 1821 ?

You think our politicians today are not influenced
or controlled through various means ?

On another note, about Alexander,
I am surprised I am still alive. :p

People are whispering in Bush's ear and encouraging him to build Empire, destroying the USA in the process and destroying freedom, Venizelos and Alexander were not immune to this hubris. Nothing changes.

Evil forces behind the scenes commission books to hide the real history and real policies and real players, that was the case in the past as well as today.

[ΒΗΣΣΑΡΙΩΝ]

I think the greater traitor are collectively the Communist Leaders in 1944-46.

They suffered of such political myopia, that they did not understand the obvious : That Stalin was not going to help them. Tolbuhkin stopped on the old Greek-Bulgarian border in 1944 as if there was an impassable barrier there. But there was nothing. He could reach Tainaron in five days.

So the Communists had to refrain from any action against the Brittish, hand over their armament, and try to side with the Liberals, forgetting their traditional red propaganda, in order avert any return to the pre-war dictatorship.

What thay did is well known. The result was that we were heavily patronaged by the Americans, we lost a lot of people from both sides, hideous crimes were committed from both sides, and we still suffer from that trauma.

[Truth Bearer]

You mean the one and only ZAHARIADIS.He was the leader of KKE he was the main culprit of the whole civil war mess and he's loyalty was to Stalin rather than Mother Hellas

[makedon]

I didn't forget the Commies, I have a great passion :angry: for them. Again outside powers and people
were directing the show.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't call Alexander a traitor,
but I believe he did the most damage to Greece
by building Empire, the world and Greece would be a very different and better place today if he stopped and consolidated power with the fulfillment of the goals he was given as Hegemon.

As is, this period has impacted our world and the Western World to a very great extent, laying the groundwork for Christianity, the Ptolemies, etc, and other Hellenistic Kingdoms, Freedom and the West. Rome would of been checked and the dark age may not have happened,
unified Rome and Byzantium, etc, and Antichios Epiphanes may not have existed. ;) Hint.;)

I hope many of you look at Nicholas Martis last book.
It is about these issues, Hammond covers this as well, and other writers, about the Hellenistic Kingdoms.

[makedon]

the format is f*****, what is up ?
can't even fix it ?

[Truth Bearer]

??? Sorry Makedon I don't follow you??!!