Did Socrates approve of Eugenics????

[Mygdonia]

I quote this from Plato's Republic.

"You are, all of you in this community brothers. But when god fashioned you, he added gold in the composition of those of you who are qualified to be Rulers, which is why their prestige is greatest; he put silver in the Auxiliaries, and iron and bronze in the farmers and workers. Now since you are all of the same stock, though your children will commonly resemble their parents, occasionally a silver child will be born of gold parents, and so on. Therefore the first and most important of god's commandments to the Rulers is that in the excercise of their function as Guardians their principle care must be to watch the mixture of metals in the characters of their children. If one of their own children has traces of bronze or iron in its make-up, they must harden their hearts, assign it its proper value, and degrade it to the ranks of the industrial and agricultural class where it belongs: similarly , if a child of this class is born with gold or silver in its nature, they will promote it appropriately to be a Guardian or an Auxiliary. And this they must do because there is a prophecy that the State will be ruined when it has Guardians of silver or bronze"

[Andrew]

I quote this from Plato's Republic.

"You are, all of you in this community brothers. But when god fashioned you, he added gold in the composition of those of you who are qualified to be Rulers, which is why their prestige is greatest; he put silver in the Auxiliaries, and iron and bronze in the farmers and workers. Now since you are all of the same stock, though your children will commonly resemble their parents, occasionally a silver child will be born of gold parents, and so on. Therefore the first and most important of god's commandments to the Rulers is that in the excercise of their function as Guardians their principle care must be to watch the mixture of metals in the characters of their children. If one of their own children has traces of bronze or iron in its make-up, they must harden their hearts, assign it its proper value, and degrade it to the ranks of the industrial and agricultural class where it belongs: similarly , if a child of this class is born with gold or silver in its nature, they will promote it appropriately to be a Guardian or an Auxiliary. And this they must do because there is a prophecy that the State will be ruined when it has Guardians of silver or bronze"

It's more Plato here realy making Soco speaking ....

The whole theme is MERITOCRACY and NATURAL VARIANCE/ETEROGENICITY of HUMAN POLULATION

The 3 "metals" are: Gold,Silver and Iron and are only a classification of varius virtues : "Leadership" , "Auxiliarity" and "Sedulity".

[Mygdonia]

So did Plato approve of it or not?

[Andrew]

So did Plato approve of it or not?

Plato definately aprove it ... :

In Plato's ideal state, physically defective infants are eliminated in an obscure location. Infanticide, however, is only one method of Plato's eugenic control and planning. The philosopher recommends state regulations for marriages and births as a way to apply the knowledge of breeding to improve human beings:

...the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition.

Aristotle's eugenic plan for the state included a near-perfect citizenry where "nothing imperfect or maimed" is brought up. The state regulated the number of children a couple produced and if anyone exceeded the state permit, pregnancies would be ended by abortion.

Eugenic infanticide was not just a philosophical topic for the ancients, it was commonly practiced and even mandated. The ancient Twelve Tables, the early Roman written legal code, required deformed children to be quickly killed.

Plutarch wrote that the Spartan system required newborns to be examined by the elders for a determination of whether the baby would be reared or sent to a ravine to die.

One scholar estimates ancient Athenian female infanticide rates may have been as high as ten percent (in a society with frequent wars, there was a preference for male children).

[Mygdonia]

Good work Andrew :)

[Andrew]

Actually Eugenic infantucid was a common topic among ALL Indo-Europeans.

Even the piece of Plato you quoted Mygdonia about the "3 metals" is a part of what Dumezil names "tripartitional structure of the proto-IEan society" :

LEADER ----- WARRIORS ----- WORKERS
admins ------ guards ----- producers

intelligence --- force ---- fertility

[Cadmus]

Now how long did they performed those cleansing rituals of the imperfect infants?

Some stories i have heard that a hundred years ago sometimes even shorter in some regions of The Balkans "imperfect"children were put to death, drowned in lakes etc..

Who knows more? Be honest, i firmly beleieve that this ancient tradition had its claws right up there till only recently.

[Andrew]

Now how long did they performed those cleansing rituals of the imperfect infants?

Some stories i have heard that a hundred years ago sometimes even shorter in some regions of The Balkans "imperfect"children were put to death, drowned in lakes etc..

Who knows more? Be honest, i firmly beleieve that this ancient tradition had its claws right up there till only recently.

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/2074/kakomoirasfjc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/kakomoirasfjc7.jpg/1/w277.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img76/kakomoirasfjc7.jpg/1/)

In the best greek comedy of all times ("tis kakomoiras", around 1962) "Zikos" (Chatzichristos) says to a client he names "komodino=night table" :p:p :

"In my village guys like you we drown them at the sink for not damaging the race !!!"

«Στο χωριό μου κάτι τέτοιους τους πνίγουμε στο νεροχύτη για να μη χαλάσει η ράτσα !!!»

Of course I don't say that this happened in Greece at the 60s ...but you remembered me this great film Cadmus :p:p:p ..although it wouldn't surprise me if these things happened in some places of the 1700s Balkans.

Here are some quotes from the film ..and the phase I described begins in 4:10for about 15 seconds :p:p:p