Mirande Vickers: The Cham Issue – Where to Now?

[Grace]

from a neutral point of view, some 20 pages (pdf):

Before dismissing it you should really read it. Some $2.8 billion in property and some 200,000 Chams who are insisting in getting their land back. They are and want to Greek citizens they claim.

To be fair to ordinary Greek people, it is quite understandable why they have little sympathy or any accurate knowledge of the Cham issue. They have been taught a very simplistic historiography of the Epirus region – “those Albanians who left the coast and lowland areas of Epirus were really Turks, whereas those that remained in the hills were Christian, i.e. good, Albanians who were allowed to stay, and as the Muslim landowning ‘Turks’ left the Greeks were only getting their land back”.38

There is also a genuine, if wholly irrational, fear amongst many older Greeks that to bring back the Muslim Chams is tantamount to asking the Turks to return. However understandable is this lack of accurate historical knowledge and fear of the returning Turk, there is also unfortunately a strongly nationalist element within Greece, spearheaded by the Greek Orthodox Church, which claims to own huge tracts of land within Albania.

The Greek hard right and many people within the Orthodox world in Greece still harbour territorial designs on the ‘minority’ areas around Saranda, the coast north to Vlora and inland to Gjirokaster and Korca. For their part Albanians have never been taught about the terrible suffering of the Greek people during World War II, and the subsequent bloody Greek Civil War (1944-1949). It is clear that old prejudices need to be dispelled, and regional histories need to be re-evaluated and in most cases re-written.
http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/07(01)MV.pdf

[Draco]

This propaganda has been brought up before here and serves little more than to confirm the existence of a wannabe terrorist group calling itself the UCC. Because it is highly discouraged that states negotiate with terrorists (and especially terrorists who hold foreign passports and can be deported) we now have a serious reason not to accept the existence of a "Cham issue".

Also, there is no such thing as 200,000 Chams. The latest available census data (from before the war) found less than 20,000 Chams and even today the population of "Chameria" is about 40,000 (out of which less than 100 are Chams according to the European Commission's Euromosaic report). How 200,000 Chams fitted in there is just another Albanian mystery...

[Grace]

Miranda Vickers is no terrorist. She is a British scholar, and was pretty harsh on Albanians, or at least enough to be quoted by Serbs.

Plus, calling people terrorists to dismiss them is kinda old.

On how they fitted there: people do have kids, and it has been two generations.

[chicagogeorge]

Also, there is no such thing as 200,000 Chams.:clapping: The latest available census data (from before the war) found less than 20,000 Chams and even today the population of "Chameria" is about 40,000 (out of which less than 100 are Chams according to the European Commission's Euromosaic report). How 200,000 Chams fitted in there is just another Albanian mystery...

They just added an extra 0 to the real number:clap2:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4005/epirotesax5.jpg

furthermore, it serves them right when the Chams sided with the Fascists and Nazis against Greece.....:mad:

[helios]

the Chams sided with the Fascists and Nazis[/SIZE][/U][/B] against Greece.....:mad:

You dont know if they sided colectively with but anyhow
there is no excuse for this:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6177/zervagenocidexq1.png

[Orphic_Hymn]

You dont know if they sided colectively with but anyhow
there is no excuse for this:

It was a war, those that sided with the enemy did so with clear intention to undermine the nation's borders. High treason is the verdict, DEATH is the sentence..

[helios]

It was a war, those that sided with the enemy did so with clear intention to undermine the nation's borders. ..

War has nothing to do with genocide.

High treason is the verdict, DEATH is the sentence..

Be reasonable, only the GOD gives the sentences.

[Orphic_Hymn]

War has nothing to do with genocide.[/QIPTE]
Genocide.. oh, you mean the additional 180.000 souls that you came up with to support your claims. Yeah, we're guilty.
[QUOTE]
Be reasonable, only the GOD gives the sentences.
Guess again.

[Draco]

You dont know if they sided colectively
Only the ones who sided were punished. The ones who weren't are still in "Chameria" (they number just under 100 according to the European Commission's Euromosaic report).
there is no excuse for this:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6177/zervagenocidexq1.png
The Greek government is not responsible for this. A private band, kinda like the UCK, did this.

[gmellos]

War has nothing to do with genocide.



Be reasonable, only the GOD gives the sentences.

AGAIN how does 1000 deaths EQUAL genocide!??????

[TirAlb]

AGAIN how does 1000 deaths EQUAL genocide!??????

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]


Defining genocide: the Nürnberg Charter and the genocide convention

criminal intent to destroy or to cripple permanently a human group. The acts are directed against groups as such, and individuals are selected for destruction only because they belong to these groups.

[Draco]

We can conclude therefore that there was no genocide.

[TirAlb]

We can conclude therefore that there was no genocide.


You mean,you can conclude that.

[chicagogeorge]

The Chams sided with the Nazis and Fascists. Everyone knows what their intentions were. To split up the Greek territory. 20,000 Chams were expelled from Epirus and 1-2,000 were killed. If this is a genocide, than what the Ottomans did to the Greeks and Armenians is what? A Super genocide?

[Draco]

I think more Germans were killed in Greece than Chams. Perhaps the Greek resistance committed genocide on the Germans too.

[TirAlb]

I think more Germans were killed in Greece than Chams. Perhaps the Greek resistance committed genocide on the Germans too.


Its not about numbers,and the Germans were an occupying military force,not autochthonous civilians.

[Draco]

Its not about numbers,and the Germans were an occupying military force,not autochthonous civilians.
The Chams in question were enlisted in the occupying force. The Greek resistance was fighting the occupying force, not some secret plan to erradicate Albanians. More Greeks were killed by the Greek resistance groups than Chamsm either for being too communist or too royalist etc. Perhaps this was a self-genocide.

[TirAlb]

The Chams in question were enlisted in the occupying force. The Greek resistance was fighting the occupying force, not some secret plan to erradicate Albanians. More Greeks were killed by the Greek resistance groups than Chamsm either for being too communist or too royalist etc. Perhaps this was a self-genocide.


Perhaps,since Chams were Greek citizens,but still a genocide.

[Draco]

Perhaps,since Chams were Greek citizens,but still a genocide.
How "still a genocide"? There is no evidence of genocide. It was a time when people were killing each other because of their political beliefs regardless of ethnicity.

[chicagogeorge]

Perhaps,since Chams were Greek citizens,but still a genocide.

So they should have sided with Greece and not the Nazis.:mad:

[TirAlb]

How "still a genocide"? There is no evidence of genocide. It was a time when people were killing each other because of their political beliefs regardless of ethnicity.

There are no Chams in Greece,Draco thats the evidence,you completely erased an entire population.

[Draco]

There are no Chams in Greece,Draco thats the evidence,you completely erased an entire population.
However only a tiny fraction of the Chams in "Chameria" died, the rest are alive and well. This sounds more like run-of-the-mill ethnic cleansing than genocide.

[TirAlb]

However only a tiny fraction of the Chams in "Chameria" died, the rest are alive and well. This sounds more like run-of-the-mill ethnic cleansing than genocide.


Do you want me to paste again the definition of genocide?At least 5000 were killed,and that's not a tiny fraction,even 1000 is not.

[TirAlb]

So they should have sided with Greece and not the Nazis.:mad:

Yeah the beloved mother Greece that shiped them to Turkey,on every occasion,expropriated their land,and gave them schools in Turkish.

[chicagogeorge]

Yeah the beloved mother Greece that shiped them to Turkey,on every occasion,expropriated their land,and gave them schools in Turkish.

Read last sentence second paragraph;)

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4005/epirotesax5.jpg

and

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/474/chamsst8.jpg

[TirAlb]

Read last sentence second paragraph;)

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4005/epirotesax5.jpg

and

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/474/chamsst8.jpg


From your own quote:


http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i1799519_epirotesax5copia.jpg

So Chams were Nazis,or Commies?

[Draco]

Do you want me to paste again the definition of genocide?At least 5000 were killed,and that's not a tiny fraction,even 1000 is not.
Please do, read it yourself again carefully. You should understand the distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide. There would only have been a genocide if the vital element, an intention to kill all the Chams (ethnic minority) in Greece (regardless of whether they succeeded or not), existed. As far as I can see, it was more about expelling them than killing them. In the absence of that vital element (and evidence of it), it is ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

To be honest, I don't even consider it ethnic cleansing. I consider it the implementation of justice on war criminals regardless of ethnicity.

Thankfully, the world at large does not buy this Albanian bullcrap about a "genocide". Even St Miranda doesn't buy it.

[Grace]

write a check Greeks, we know why you did it. Albania can accuse all Greeks in Albania of being Nazi supporters and threw them out, but that doesn't make it right nor so. Also, it's obvious they weren't treated as citizens, long before the Nazis showed up.

Write a nice check...stop paying pensions to Albanians for being "Greek" and you have enough money to pay the rightful owners.

[Tsontos]

write a check Greeks, we know why you did it. Albania can accuse all Greeks in Albania of being Nazi supporters and threw them out, but that doesn't make it right nor so. Also, it's obvious they weren't treated as citizens, long before the Nazis showed up.

Write a nice check...stop paying pensions to Albanians for being "Greek" and you have enough money to pay the rightful owners.

Will USD $360 billion (http://a11news.com/images/360-billion-dollar-check.jpg) do?

You sound like the neice or daughter of some disenfranchised Cham Grace, how about you give me your paypal email and I can put this right.

[Orphic_Hymn]

write a check Greeks, we know why you did it. Albania can accuse all Greeks in Albania of being Nazi supporters and threw them out, but that doesn't make it right nor so. Also, it's obvious they weren't treated as citizens, long before the Nazis showed up.
Now thats bold.. ever heard of SS.Skanderbeg or didn't they teach you that one ?

Write a nice check...stop paying pensions to Albanians for being "Greek" and you have enough money to pay the rightful owners.
[/QUOTE]

Stop paying pensions???

By simply stating the fact that the first Albanian immigrants arrived in the early 90's, we conclude, that they aren't even eligible to receive pension, but even if they were.. you propose we don't pay hard earned money to Albanian immigrants that earned the right to a pension, yet give it to the descendants of traitors (ethnic Albanians or not, they were citizens of the Hellenic Republic) that sided with the invading Nazi in an attempt to undermine the nation's borders?

[gmellos]

There are no Chams in Greece,Draco thats the evidence,you completely erased an entire population.

I HOPE you know that 12 MILLION Germans where kicked out from their homes and sent t Germany after WWII!!!! Because of what the Germans had done in WWII those people had to leave! The SAME happened to the Chams!

[Morphesau]

gmellos that so true. Tiralb look at what happened to the Italian fasists.

Mussolini Executed

28th April 1945: The bodies of Benito Mussolini and Clara Petacci, his mistress, hang from the roof of a gasoline station after they had been shot by anti-Fascist forces while attempting to escape to Switzerland. (Photo by Keystone/Getty Images)
http://www.jamd.com/search?assettype=g&assetid=3276821&text=Mussolini+hanged+after+ww2

Picture of Mussolini hanging...All fasists around the region suffered the same fate. They all fled, like the chams did to flee from being prosecuted for war crimes.

[helios]

They all fled, like the chams did to flee from being prosecuted for war crimes.

And of course they were all guilty from the age 0-112, prosecuted from a legal prosecutor, made a fair trial, and sentenced from a legal court which were nasi-collaborators themselves(Zerva).
This type of justice comes directly as a descendence from the Ancient Legenes ... I mean Hellenes.
Proud to be a Legen, sorry.. a modern Hellen.

[Morphesau]

And of course they were all guilty from the age 0-112, prosecuted from a legal prosecutor, made a fair trial, and sentenced from a legal court which were nasi-collaborators themselves(Zerva).
This type of justice comes directly as a descendence from the Ancient Legenes ... I mean Hellenes.
Proud to be a Legen, sorry.. a modern Hellen.

helios you are delusional and are unable to think strait now, it is obvious.

This is outrages !!! Show some respect to the past victims.

[helios]

helios you are delusional and are unable to think strait now, it is obvious.

This is outrages !!! Show some respect to the past victims.

Since you consider a zig-zag thinking of yours as a straight one, you are right.

[Morphesau]

Zervas was acting under the instructions of Allied officers and NOT by the Nazis like you were.

So it is the UK then that you accuse of ethnic cleansing ? Zervas of course was directed by Woodhouse to push the Chams out of the area because they were overwhelmingly supporting Nazi German fascists in attacks on Greeks, Slavs, Jews etc in the region as well as anti - Nazi forces like Zervas.

Do some reading - research of various reliable sources They document horrific destruction, mass murder etc by the Chams.

[Tsontos]

And of course they were all guilty from the age 0-112, prosecuted from a legal prosecutor, made a fair trial, and sentenced from a legal court which were nasi-collaborators themselves(Zerva).
This type of justice comes directly as a descendence from the Ancient Legenes ... I mean Hellenes.
Proud to be a Legen, sorry.. a modern Hellen.

I don't know what "legen" means but TirAlb said it's insulting and you are not allowed to post in a language other than Greek or English without an accompanying translation according to forum rule #1.

So your suspended from posting for three days.

[TirAlb]

I don't know what "legen" means but TirAlb said it's insulting and you are not allowed to post in a language other than Greek or English without an accompanying translation according to forum rule #1.

So your suspended from posting for three days.

Lol when did i said that,i don't remember?

[Tsontos]

in some thread where someone spellt the word legend wrong hah

[TirAlb]

yeah i kind of remind now,the situation where i said that,but damn,you have a great memory man,my compliments.:)

[chicagogeorge]

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/3578/chams2wi2.jpg

[Tsontos]

"Also the the Chams' collaboration with the Nazis is a fact, not an accusation"

Nice one George!

[helios]

"Also the the Chams' collaboration with the Nazis is a fact, not an accusation"



the thief is shouting: catch the the thief.....

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6824/greeksssu9.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6272/greekss2xb4.jpg

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7396/zervasl9.jpg

[helios]

"Also the the Chams' collaboration with the Nazis is a fact, not an accusation"

Nice one George!

Actually the thief and the lier:

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7852/greekss1oa0.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1152/greekss3gx9.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6483/priestwithnazi2ci8.jpg

ALL THE FACTS SHOW THAT THE GREEKS WERE WAY FAR MORE INVOLVED IN THE NAZI COLLABORATION than Albanians.

[Victor]

No one denies that some GReeks did collaborate during the occupation(as they did in EVERY other occupied country,and even some Jews did) but the pre-war Greek government(run by a right-wing dictatorship no less) stood up to both the ITalians and the Germans.Your government laid down like a cheap hooker for MUssolini and then for Hitler.
STop defending the indefensible.

[chicagogeorge]

Helios may not no much about World War II. Remember Greece was an Allied Country. Albania was not! Greece lost hundreds of thousands of people to the Axis. Greece fought the Axis. Albanian did not.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1505/greecewwii2zt8.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7902/greecewwiinw0.jpg

Albanians were on the side of the Nazis.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos2-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/balisti5-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos-1.jpg
Italian Nazi officers and their Albanian allies parade Kosova in 1941

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos3.jpg
Pro-Nazi Albanian demonstration. Many people in the world do not know that Albanians sided with Nazis in the WWII.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/011-1.jpg
Gjon Marka Gjoni, the fascist leader of the Albanian Roman Catholics, whose followers were in the Skanderbeg SS Division.


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/mfrasheri.jpg
Midhat Frasheri, the founder and leader of the Nazi/fascist Balli Kombetar.


http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/person/d/spyes/01157.jpg

Elyesa Bazna aka Cicero
-The German(Albanian) 007-
Elyesa Bazna one of the most famous spies of World War II, who worked for Nazi Germany in 1943–44 while he was employed as valet to Sir Hughe Montgomery Knatchbull-Hugessen, British ambassador to neutral Turkey from 1939. He photographed secret documents from the embassy safe and turned the films over to the former German chancellor Franz von Papen...
Elyesa Bazna aka Cicero
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/117563/Cicero


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/001-2.jpg
On right, Kosovar Albanian Nazir Hodic, a member of the Nazi SS Division Handzar in Bosnia. On left is Rudi Sommemer, the commander of the Nazi SS Albanian Battalion, 6/28 in Handzar. Hodic is shown wearing the Albanian skull cap issued by the SS with a Nazi swastika on his collar.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/003.jpg
Kosovar Albanian Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division/Kampfgruppe in Kosovo, 1944. This Nazi SS Division, made up of Kosovar Albanians, rounded up Kosova Jews that were murdered in the Nazi death camps.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/004.jpg

Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, commander of the Nazi SS Division Handzar in Bosnia. He is shown wearing the Albanerfez, or national Albanian skull cap made by the SS for the Nazi Albanian Kosovars in the division.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/balisti3-1.jpg
Albanian Ballists from Balli Kombetar (Albanian National Front) who sided with the Nazis during the WW2

[helios]

Helios may not no much about World War II. Remember Greece was an Allied Country. Albania was not! Greece lost hundreds of thousands of people to the Axis. Greece fought the Axis. Albanian did not.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/1505/greecewwii2zt8.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7902/greecewwiinw0.jpg

Albanians were on the side of the Nazis.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos2-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/balisti5-1.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos-1.jpg
Italian Nazi officers and their Albanian allies parade Kosova in 1941

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/nazikos3.jpg
Pro-Nazi Albanian demonstration. Many people in the world do not know that Albanians sided with Nazis in the WWII.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/011-1.jpg[/IMG]
Gjon Marka Gjoni, the fascist leader of the Albanian Roman Catholics, whose followers were in the Skanderbeg SS Division.


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/mfrasheri.jpg[/IMG]
Midhat Frasheri, the founder and leader of the Nazi/fascist Balli Kombetar.


http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/person/d/spyes/01157.jpg

Elyesa Bazna aka Cicero
-The German(Albanian) 007-
Elyesa Bazna one of the most famous spies of World War II, who worked for Nazi Germany in 1943–44 while he was employed as valet to Sir Hughe Montgomery Knatchbull-Hugessen, British ambassador to neutral Turkey from 1939. He photographed secret documents from the embassy safe and turned the films over to the former German chancellor Franz von Papen...
Elyesa Bazna aka Cicero
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/117563/Cicero


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/001-2.jpg
On right, Kosovar Albanian Nazir Hodic, a member of the Nazi SS Division Handzar in Bosnia. On left is Rudi Sommemer, the commander of the Nazi SS Albanian Battalion, 6/28 in Handzar. Hodic is shown wearing the Albanian skull cap issued by the SS with a Nazi swastika on his collar.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/003.jpg
Kosovar Albanian Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division/Kampfgruppe in Kosovo, 1944. This Nazi SS Division, made up of Kosovar Albanians, rounded up Kosova Jews that were murdered in the Nazi death camps.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/004.jpg

Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, commander of the Nazi SS Division Handzar in Bosnia. He is shown wearing the Albanerfez, or national Albanian skull cap made by the SS for the Nazi Albanian Kosovars in the division.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/c0ldfir3/balisti3-1.jpg
Albanian Ballists from Balli Kombetar (Albanian National Front) who sided with the Nazis during the WW2

Watch carrefully .
Your article in New York Times belongs to the year 1940, while your photos(all taken from Serbia propaganda) most of them belong to Scanderbeg division created only on Aprill 1944(Albania was already liberated from antinazi coalition in November 1944) and disbanded in December 1944.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5803/picture1ed4.png

The division activity(without impact at all) was mainly in Kosova and Montenegro which were inside Yugoslavia borders.

[chicagogeorge]

So the only Albanian Nazis supporters were found in Kosovo. Fine.:)

What about the Albanians in Southern Albania aided who? The Italians Fascists who attacked Greece from Albania or the Greeks? And please explain why the Chams overwhelmingly supported the Nazis and the Italians during WWII:rolleyes:

[Amarantos]

@helios

What does the Metaxa's EON organization -among the pictures you posted- has to do with collaborationism, is a question that finds an answer only in your imagination. EON was unfortunately for you dissolved by the government set up by the germans when they occupied Greece.
So as we see by this example, we are talking here about some serious analysis and presentation of your views.

[Orphic_Hymn]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/7396/zervasl9.jpg

Your whole approach is quite pathetic.. the topic is allegedly about Chams, those that (like the commies) commited HIGH TREASON.. and instead of accepting the already proven fact that they indeed collaborated against their nation's interests, you try to justify their actions by presenting us other collaborators !?!?!

But you really do have to address Amarantos' comment on your EON pics as you should for the pic of the priest most probably doing some translating, hence the people gathered around the German who's keeping notes.. well unless you'll claim that the old lady in the pic was one of the brutal fighters that the Nazi's had managed to turn...

As for this alleged pic of Zervas... Here's what the man really looked like

http://www2.fhw.gr/projects/cooperations/f_policy36_45/images/large/512.gif

Source:
Foundation of the Hellenic world (http://www2.fhw.gr/projects/cooperations/f_policy36_45/gr/photo/512.html)

So do tell us exactly which one of the 3 in the pic you posted, is this fat bearded guy?

[TirAlb]

Thanks for the foto,Orphic,now im definitively sure that the one speaking with Germans is Zerva.

[Amarantos]

Yeh here is another one that could help you more

http://www2.fhw.gr/projects/cooperations/f_policy36_45/images/large/520.gif


And this is another guy. Gosh they look like two drops of water

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4051/arismeletzisxs4.jpg

I believe that this next photo though is the acurate one.

http://images.uncyc.org/pt/c/c5/OsamaPAOK.jpg

Those two guys in the beginning are quite fat. This one on the contrary is in the right proportions!

......i new paok, had something to do with our budy's helios presentation.

[helios]

As for this alleged pic of Zervas... Here's what the man really looked like

http://www2.fhw.gr/projects/cooperations/f_policy36_45/images/large/512.gif



Yeah thank you for the pic, I already knew that he looked like a horse ass hole.

[helios]

Thanks for the foto,Orphic,now im definitively sure that the one speaking with Germans is Zerva.

No doubts.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Thanks for the foto,Orphic,now im definitively sure that the one speaking with Germans is Zerva.

I can only hope that there's some amount of sarcasm in your comment otherwise I'll have to question your visual abilities..
Can't you see the difference, the alleged Zervas is a skinny bastard while as anyone can see the original was fat:


http://www2.fhw.gr/chronos/14/images/1940_1945/resistance/big/an_03.jpg

[akritas]

helios you play with my nervous with your efforts as regards the Greece and the WWII issue and your presantation to show us that the Greeks coloborated with the Axis forces.
500.000 Greeks died in WII because the battles and the famine.

Take it as warning.:mad:

[helios]

helios you play with my nervous with your efforts as regards the Greece and the WWII issue and your presantation to show us that the Greeks coloborated with the Axis forces.
500.000 Greeks died in WII because the battles and the famine.

Take it as warning.:mad:

Those who died for Greece were sending this letter to those Greeks who were collaborating with Nazis.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3553/zervagenocide1cf2.png

They were asking Zerva@co that cams must return back in their homes.

[akritas]

EAM in 1945 did not represent it the Greek goverment in case that you forget it.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Those who died for Greece were sending this letter to those Greeks who were collaborating with Nazis.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3553/zervagenocide1cf2.png

They were asking Zerva@co that cams must return back in their homes.

No suprize that EAM was dictating such politics.. Albania was under commie influence and was the source of EAM's weapons during the civil war.. Zachariadis had actually fled to Albania after it..
Besides the commie ideology in favor of pro-commie states was already known since Nov. 1940 when Zachariades wrote his letter to Metaxas suggesting that we abandon all conquered territories and drive out the Brits since our only savior was Russia.. Pure commie what would anyone expect.

[Tsontos]

TirAlb you can't be serious about that picture.

I can't even work out which person in the pic you are claiming is Zervas. Don't you think if there actually was a picture of Zervas with the Nazis, the communists would be all over it?

The facts are that Zervas was one of the most successful resistance leaders and British allies in the whole of Europe. Albanians and Communists can live the same fantasy if they wish.

Sometimes TirAlb's posts give the appearance of a reasonable, moderate Albanian, then other posts of his are as useless as nationalist dreamers like helios. Doesnt do much for his credibility on other issues.

[TirAlb]

TirAlb you can't be serious about that picture.

I can't even work out which person in the pic you are claiming is Zervas. Don't you think if there actually was a picture of Zervas with the Nazis, the communists would be all over it?

The facts are that Zervas was one of the most successful resistance leaders and British allies in the whole of Europe. Albanians and Communists can live the same fantasy if they wish.

Sometimes TirAlb's posts give the appearance of a reasonable, moderate Albanian, then other posts of his are as useless as nationalist dreamers like helios. Doesnt do much for his credibility on other issues.

I never claimed to be moderate,but the problem is yours in this case,you(all of you) are not able to addmit the obvious.

[TirAlb]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=related

i can't understand what they are saying but maybe there's some interesting stuff from min 5.00 of this video.

[Tsontos]

We have talked about Zervas before and, as with this time, you are quite willing to just parrot the simplest Albanian narrative in a couple of posts without any sort of evidence, logic or conviction to argue the point. Zervas carried out the most significant resistance offensive against the Wehrmacht in all Europe at Georgopotamos Bridge. He was one of the most successful SOE commanders and beneficiary of British funds and arms.

The Communists claim Zervas collaborated in 1944, but the only documentation about collaboration from resistance groups was that between the Wehrmacht and Communists assuring mutual assistance against the "enemy", the enemy being Zervas!!!

[Tsontos]

The argeement betweent the communists and Germans referring to Zervas as the enemy:

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8373/20050523150531getphotolh4.jpg


We understand Zervas is the arch enemy in the Albanian narrative about the period and the cham mass suicide/ genocide/ holocaust, and he should be. He kicked the Albanian fascists and the Albanian fascists-turned-communists asses. The Greek communists hate the man for the same reason.:clap2:

[Orphic_Hymn]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w&feature=related

i can't understand what they are saying but maybe there's some interesting stuff from min 5.00 of this video.

So the accusation is that the Germans approached him and the he alone knew of this agreement (see 4:59-5:05) since he didn't want to geopordize his position and the organization.

While the most interesting part is that he speaks of actions against nationalistic guerilla bands, a term which can only define EDES since ELAS/EAM were purely politically motivated, interested in the Soviet and not in the nation.. we should note that the "agreement" is documented Feb. 1944 (which is when Germany was already losing the war) and foresaw:

a) silent cease-fire untill further communication
b) exchange of partial info regarding EAM especially prior to military action
c) in case of advance of EAM, support from German troops
d) full discretion so that Zervas wouldn't geopadize British support

and that, this is no different than the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that kept commies out of the war prior to Barbarossa, actually their actions were anything but patriotic (see previous reference to Zachariadis' letter) nor to a similar agreement made with EAM (original can be posted, the photocopy is just clearer)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/panosvls/KKE/2005-05-23_150531_getphoto.jpg?t=1214901237

But in reality, this is no real suprize, there are similar theories circulated about Mihailovic who seemed to be in close contact with Zervas.. unfortunately for the Serbs, he failed and communism sent their country into that abyss called communism, since it prevailed.
In either case collaborator or not, what he did was purely in the interest of his country and not some sick political ideology that lead its followers into economic and cultural chaos.

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.. from Chams, we're now getting into our Civil war and who collaborated and who didn't. The well known story of who's the greater patriot. :rolleyes:


edit:
oh re Tsontos you're fast... :clapping:

[Amarantos]

I do not know when precisely this tv trasmission was made but most probably judging by the image, during the 80's... when Papandreou came to power. This is something one has to consider.

[helios]

We understand Zervas is the arch enemy in the Albanian narrative about the period and the cham mass suicide/ genocide/ holocaust, and he should be. He kicked the Albanian fascists and the Albanian fascists-turned-communists asses. The Greek communists hate the man for the same reason.:clap2:

It's strange why Zervas didnt kick out of Greece these people (but only the muslim Cham Albanians):

Ioannis Rallis, The Prime Minister of Greece with {the enemies} of the Greece.
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1279/rallisbh2.jpg

Ioannis Metaxas .
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9431/metaxas2nt5.jpg

[Amarantos]

It's strange why Zervas didnt kick out of Greece these people (but only the muslim Cham Albanians):

Ioannis Rallis, The Prime Minister of Greece with {the enemies} of the Greece.


Ioannis Metaxas



helios, your attempt to accuse and offend Greece at any cost is hitting some very very very low levels.

Learn that Ioannis Metaxas died on January 29, 1941 after having decided to fight the Italians, and that Ioannis Rallis died in prison on October 26, 1946, since after the liberation of Greece by the Axis powers he was sentenced to life imprisonment for collaborationism.

No need for further comments!

PS: you did not provide any info on the falsity you posted the other day on EON. I am certain that the post i'm responding to this time will have the same fortune, obviously for the same reasons you avoided to respond to the previous one.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Learn that Ioannis Metaxas died on January 29, 1941 after having decided to fight the Italians, and that Ioannis Rallis died in prison on October 26, 1946, since after the liberation of Greece by the Axis powers he was sentenced to life imprisonment for collaborationism.


Come on re Amarante.. you're asking far to much from our friend, what did you expect, that he'd actually know what he's talking about?
Thats a utopia re su.

[helios]

helios, your attempt to accuse and offend Greece at any cost is hitting some very very very low levels.


Absolutely, NO.
You dont have the slightest idea what feelings I have towards the Greece.
Not at all.

I am attempting something very different, to accuse some people attempt(including you) to incriminate an entire ethnic population(Chams) as being nazi collaborators and justifing the genocide of pig-arse-hole face Zervas against these undefended population.

[helios]

Come on re Amarante.. you're asking far to much from our friend, what did you expect, that he'd actually know what he's talking about?
Thats a utopia re su.

Telling the truth utopia is expcecting the criminels and their sons regreting their intentionall crimes against humanity.

[Orphic_Hymn]

Telling the truth utopia is expcecting the criminels and their sons regreting their intentionall crimes against humanity.

What truth ?
You're totally ignorant of anything you've presented in this forum and have constantly received nothing but ridicule from all those that wasted their time with you!!

If you're calling me or anyone of those I descend from a criminal for being both the juror and executioner of Cham or even commie TRAITORS, I honestly tell you that I don't feel the least offended, to the contrary, I find pride in their actions and would gladly see the events take place all over again.

Now do you have anything to add about the Cham issue or will you continue making irrelevent posts that simply waste valuable space and forum member's time ?

[Amarantos]

Absolutely, NO.
You dont have the slightest idea what feelings I have towards the Greece.
Not at all.

I am attempting something very different, to accuse some people attempt(including you) to incriminate an entire ethnic population(Chams) as being nazi collaborators and justifing the genocide of pig-arse-hole face Zervas against these undefended population.


What you are doing is pathetic and is generated by the albanian propaganda which has some very wild dreams indeed. This is obvious each time you post a picture out of any possible time context and you make ungrounded insinuations. Even this time you did not respond to the absurdity you posted earlier but limited yourself to a fake "humanitarian" discourse. And it is fake, since if you had pure humanitarian intentions you would have treated in the same exact way other people's fate too, a fate influenced by the WW2 effects. The 250.000 germans for istance that had to leave Hungary or the 5.000.000 who left Poland. Or even the thousands of italian victims of the Foibe massacres and those that had to leave Istria region hunted by the yugoslav communists. Now i do not see any of you albanian "humanists" being sensible on such issues, apart from what you believe will somehow benefit you in a future time i.e. the world wide non existant argument that you call the "cham issue". So welcome to reality. This is how things worked back then concearning many sides. Those who were considered dangerous and acted one way or another againt sovereign states had to leave. Period.

[Tsontos]

hahahah helios asks why Metaxas and Rallis wasnt convicted for collaboration. that's funny. What's the point in arguing when you have no idea about Greek history?

It's strange why Zervas didnt kick out of Greece these people (but only the muslim Cham Albanians):

You cant kick a Greek collaborator out of Greece. WHich country would take him? You kill him. And that's what happened. Greek collaborators deserve the same brutal death as the "poor undefended" cham collaborators.