Himara in 1854

[kostas68]

Some of our Albanian friends claim that the Himariots aren't Greeks,they were Hellenized due to their commercial relationship with Corfu,e.t.c.These claims seem to be very absurd-no one can change his national consciousness due to his relation with his distant neighbors,when a sea is separating them and he is surrounded by people of his own kin.They are also claiming that Epirotans and Albanians were,or were considered the same kin in Ottoman times.What wrote about this topic an English traveller,John Murray,who came across Epirus and Albania(Himara region),in 1854?
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2627/travelersingreece1854hx0.th.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=travelersingreece1854hx0.png)
Below he describes his travel in the mountains of Himara,accompanied by a native Himariot guide and he makes a clear distinction between Illyrian-Albanian and Epirot men and mountains.The first village they visit is Dradziates.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2764/1854chimuy3.th.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854chimuy3.png)
The Himariot guide shouts in Greek:κακός δρόμος!(bad road!) and the toponyms Vouno and Doukadhes,both Greek are mentioned.
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7299/1854chim2cw3.th.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854chim2cw3.png)
Now they come across Aspri Rouga,and the villages of Drymades and Palasa,near the site og ancient Palaste,again Greek toponyms.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3175/1854chim3ff0.th.png (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854chim3ff0.png)
And finally,when they reach Himara,he finds still considerable remains of Hellenic masonry and he finds off course the Himariots,who speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians,as he says,is Albanian.Isn't totally absurd that although they were surrounded by Albanians,they were Hellenized by the Greeks who lived in an island(Corfu)50km away ?
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2792/1854chim4ip0.th.png (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854chim4ip0.png)

[TirAlb]

kostas were exactly that article says that Himariots are Greeks?
Some of my points are even streesed there,like the inaccessibility of the region and the easyness of reaching Korfu with a boat.

[Flipper]

Very good finding:clap2:..

[kostas68]

kostas were exactly that article says that Himariots are Greeks?
If someone: 1)Speaks Greek,2)Uses Greek toponyms in his region,2)Consider himself Greek,what else could he be?Your claim is an arbitrary unsubstantiated assumption opposite to all the rules of logic.
Some of my points are even streesed there,like the inaccessibility of the region and the easyness of reaching Korfu with a boat.
If the easyness of reaching by sea a Greek region 50 km away could Hellenize Albanian populations who were surrounded by other Albanian populations,then nobody in Albania would speak Albanian nowadays.

[TirAlb]

If someone: 1)Speaks Greek,2)Uses Greek toponyms in his region,2)Consider himself Greek,what else could he be?Your claim is an arbitrary unsubstantiated assumption opposite to all the rules of logic.
You forgot to put songs,clothes and customs in general,that are simply Albanian.They speak greek as half of south Albanians speak it.What now toponyms are,are the ones that define peoples ethnicity?!What about mount Cika,is that greek too?

If the easyness of reaching by sea a Greek region 50 km away could Hellenize Albanian populations who were surrounded by other Albanian populations,then nobody in Albania would speak Albanian nowadays

Not 50,but 30,and not only Korfu but also Puglia that is even more distant.And they are not hellenizated they just speak Greek as well as Albanian.

[Andrew]

Don't you just love being a Balkanian ???

200 years from now ...in the future balkan FORUMS people will say ...:
"the guys talking to macedonia-on-the-web what ethnicity were they ?"
A Greek will say :"Greeks watch the magiority of the Names : Andreas , Kostas etc"
An Albanian will say : Ya but there was a name Tiralb ..probably he was a "hellenized Albanian" !!
A FYROMer (if that exists in 200 years) will say ..."none !!They comunicated in English and by the name of the FORUM (Macedonia on the web) they must be anglophon "makedontsite" !!!"

:p:p:p:p:p:p

[kostas68]

You forgot to put songs,clothes and customs in general,that are simply Albanian.
Or simply Epirotan.How can you define clearly what belongs to whom in peoples who live mixed for centuries?It's the same as between the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia or Northern Thrace(today's South Bulgaria) and the Bulgarians of the same region.If you compare their songs,clothes,e.t.c you'll find remarkable simmilarity,especially in the songs.The music is almost at 90% the same.If you hear only the music and not the lyrics,you can't distinguish no way what's Greek and what's Bulgarian.(And they are wonderfull songs,both Greek and Bulgarian).
They speak greek as half of south Albanians speak it.
But the English traveler wrote that they spoke only Greek,if they spoke and Albanian he would mention it,wouldn't he?Or maybe you believe he had any reason to hide it?As he says about the majority of the surrounding populations that they spoke Albanian,he would say it for the Himariots if they spoke Albanian.Probably they spoke Albanian,but not as their native tongue,which was the Greek one and that's what surprise him and he depicts this contrast saying that <the Himariots speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians is Albanian>.
Come on,TirAlb,don't react like the Skopians!
What now toponyms are,are the ones that define peoples ethnicity?!
No,not for sure,but if these toponyms are used by a native people who speaks the same language and has the same national consciousness,isn't that an evidence?
What about mount Cika,is that greek too?
Yeah,it's as Greek,as Albanian are Argyrokastro and Saranda;) I didn't claim all the toponyms in these region as Greek but a big percentage of them.
Not 50,but 30,and not only Korfu but also Puglia that is even more distant.And they are not hellenizated they just speak Greek as well as Albanian.
And they just consider themselves Greeks,unlike their Albanian neighbors.OK,even it's better to speak to a wall than to you,as we say in my village,they spoke Greek as their native language,as it can be clearly concluded by the English traveler's narration and i accept that they might also speak Albanian,even it's nowhere mentioned by him,but not as their native tongue.

[kostas68]

A FYROMer (if that exists in 200 years) will say ..."none !!They comunicated in English and by the name of the FORUM (Macedonia on the web) they must be anglophon "makedontsite" !!!"
:p:p:p:p:p:p
If this could ever happen,i would rise from my grave and :blast::blast::gun_thug::gun_thug: :headbonk::headbonk: the one who would dare to claim it.

[Andrew]

Tiralb I must say one thing here ...you say that they learned Greek to comunicate with Corfu ....Don't forget that most Corfu guys (I prefer Kerkyrei) and most coastal Albanians knew and know Italian ..so there was a comersial language for both ...so since that there isn't realy a necessity to learn Greek (since Italian works fine for bisiness) , the fact that they speak greek must mean that they felt greeks.Now the Himariots had also top comunicate with the inner Albanians who didn't speak Italian , so they had to learn also Albanian ...What do you think ?

[Andrew]

If this could ever happen,i would rise from my grave and :blast::blast::gun_thug::gun_thug: :headbonk::headbonk: the one who would dare to claim it.

and you know what the "Donski of the future" will use for evidence eee?
In that FORUM they also spoke about Himariots in Northern Epeirus ..now we all know that "aleksandar veliki"'s mother Olympiova was from Epeirus and so..
..the MotW guys were "Makedonski"s :p:p:p

[TirAlb]

Or simply Epirotan.How can you define clearly what belongs to whom in peoples who live mixed for centuries?It's the same as between the Greeks of Eastern Rumelia or Northern Thrace(today's South Bulgaria) and the Bulgarians of the same region.If you compare their songs,clothes,e.t.c you'll find remarkable simmilarity,especially in the songs.The music is almost at 90% the same.If you hear only the music and not the lyrics,you can't distinguish no way what's Greek and what's Bulgarian.(And they are wonderfull songs,both Greek and Bulgarian).


I have said it hundred of times,the music of Laberia,Himara included,is different and you can' find it elsewhere in the Balkans.
For the umpteenth time find me a greek or a bulgarian singing this way.
Also i think you don't have clear the fact that the himariot lirics are exclusively Albanian,why a Greek would marry or bury his dears singing in Albanian?!


But the English traveler wrote that they spoke only Greek,if they spoke and Albanian he would mention it,wouldn't he?Or maybe you believe he had any reason to hide it?As he says about the majority of the surrounding populations that they spoke Albanian,he would say it for the Himariots if they spoke Albanian.Probably they spoke Albanian,but not as their native tongue,which was the Greek one and that's what surprise him and he depicts this contrast saying that <the Himariots speak Greek,though the language of the majority of the Acroceraunians is Albanian>.
Come on,TirAlb,don't react like the Skopians!

He just said that they speak Greek.

No,not for sure,but if these toponyms are used by a native people who speaks the same language and has the same national consciousness,isn't that an evidence?

Yeah,it's as Greek,as Albanian are Argyrokastro and Saranda;) I didn't claim all the toponyms in these region as Greek but a big percentage of them.

Don't start the toponyms game it doesn't prove nothing,if you want to know more about Himaritos go and see their surnames,that are mostly catholic Albanian.
As for Gjirokastra;Argjend means silver in Albanian as well,and that name is based on the legend of Argjiro the killed herself and her babys to escape,from turks,smth similar to what the Albanian suliote womans did.
But probably that name means just Gjinokastra (as natives still call it),or Gjins castle,from the name of Gjin Bue Shpata,the Albanian pre-ottoman lord of that city and most of epirus. Also the transformation of N in R is very common in the Albanian language

And they just consider themselves Greeks,unlike their Albanian neighbors.OK,even it's better to speak to a wall than to you,as we say in my village,they spoke Greek as their native language,as it can be clearly concluded by the English traveler's narration and i accept that they might also speak Albanian,even it's nowhere mentioned by him,but not as their native tongue.
the english traveler is clearly not interested in the ethnicity fo the people,and i doubt he had an Albanian translator with him.


Tiralb I must say one thing here ...you say that they learned Greek to comunicate with Corfu ....Don't forget that most Corfu guys (I prefer Kerkyrei) and most coastal Albanians knew and know Italian ..so there was a comersial language for both ...so since that there isn't realy a necessity to learn Greek (since Italian works fine for bisiness) , the fact that they speak greek must mean that they felt greeks.Now the Himariots had also top comunicate with the inner Albanians who didn't speak Italian , so they had to learn also Albanian ...What do you think ?

Good point,Himariots 2nd language was italian and not Greek,Greek became important only in the last 200-300 years when links with italy were defenitely cutted.
Ok lets say they learned Albanian,then why almost all of them can trace their roots out of Himara,in the neighboring Albanian regions(Bollano and Dhima family are among those),or even north Albania?Or why their Albanian is a perfect lab Albanian,Why do they have Albanian surnames?

[Andrew]

Why do they have Albanian surnames?

Why do Greeks from Asia Minor have surnames ending in "-oglou" like the turkish ones ? (oglou means "son of" in turkish) ?

I must say that I'm not very prepared to himariots ..I only pointed out that since they knew Italian there was no necessity to speak Greek for commersial reasons ...that's all .
Know about Songs , Rituals and stuff like that..I can say that when two populations dwell the same land for long periods each makes cultural loans to the other , no ?

We ALL balkanians drink "Turkish" coffee , no ? we ALL (I think) have a "baxe" of vegetables and we ALL have "baklava" !!
The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Same thing for "bessa" and I believe that there are greek loans to Albanian no?

[Draco]

The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Actually it's a Slavic loanword, it appears in Bulgarian/Skopjian as blato (hmmm...).

[Andrew]

Actually it's a Slavic loanword, it appears in Bulgarian/Skopjian as blato (hmmm...).

Thanks Draco ..I remember it was a loan to greek ..I messed up the "loaner"

[TirAlb]

Why do Greeks from Asia Minor have surnames ending in "-oglou" like the turkish ones ? (oglou means "son of" in turkish) ?

I must say that I'm not very prepared to himariots ..I only pointed out that since they knew Italian there was no necessity to speak Greek for commersial reasons ...that's all .
Know about Songs , Rituals and stuff like that..I can say that when two populations dwell the same land for long periods each makes cultural loans to the other , no ?

We ALL balkanians drink "Turkish" coffee , no ? we ALL (I think) have a "baxe" of vegetables and we ALL have "baklava" !!
The modern greek word for swamp is "valtos" and it is a loan from the Albanian "balt" , no ?
Same thing for "bessa" and I believe that there are greek loans to Albanian no?

Of course we did,but Himariots are not the case.Even today just a minority of them declare themselves Greeks.And btw do you know that the greek state pays them 300euro per capita every month?

ps-balt in Albanian means mud.

[kostas68]

I have said it hundred of times,the music of Laberia,Himara included,is different and you can' find it elsewhere in the Balkans.
That doesn't make this music Albanian
For the umpteenth time find me a greek or a bulgarian singing this way (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bpmmieoWHiI&feature=related).
Also i think you don't have clear the fact that the himariot lirics are exclusively Albanian,
Why should i believe you?
why a Greek would marry or bury his dears singing in Albanian?!
Why an Albanian would speak Greek to an English traveler?
He just said that they speak Greek.
Exactly.Not Albanian.
As for Gjirokastra;Argjend means silver in Albanian as well,and that name is based on the legend of Argjiro the killed herself and her babys to escape,from turks,smth similar to what the Albanian suliote womans did.
But probably that name means just Gjinokastra (as natives still call it),or Gjins castle,from the name of Gjin Bue Shpata,the Albanian pre-ottoman lord of that city and most of epirus. Also the transformation of N in R is very common in the Albanian language
Argyro=Greek female name,derives from the adjective argyros,argyri,argyro=silver
the english traveler is clearly not interested in the ethnicity fo the people,and i doubt he had an Albanian translator with him.
His guide was a native Himariot and spoke Greek,as he wrote.

[TirAlb]

That doesn't make this music Albanian
It is Albanian.


Why should i believe you?
Thats your problem

Why an Albanian would speak Greek to an English traveler?
Because the english traveler obviously can speak only Greek.

Exactly.Not Albanian.
He also said the the majority speak Albanian.


Argyro=Greek female name,derives from the adjective argyros,argyri,argyro=silver
I said it too,Argjiro=Albanian female name,Argjend-silver.That name might be originaly Greek but during medievalism was also Albanian.But as i said to me the other explanation is much more believeable.

His guide was a native Himariot and spoke Greek,as he wrote.

I speak Italian and some English what am I?

[kostas68]

It is Albanian.
And what's this?You said only the Albanians have polyphonic songs.
Look the 6th,7th and 8th video clips.Poluphonic songs from Himara and Dovriani.
http://www.northepirus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=163
Because the english traveler obviously can speak only Greek.
He spoke Greek because he was Greek,as the English traveller says:
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6859/1854375kz7.th.png (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854375kz7.png)
He also said the the majority speak Albanian.
The majority of their neighbors,not the Himariots themselves.

[TirAlb]

And what's this?You said only the Albanians have polyphonic songs.
Look the 6th,7th and 8th video clips.Poluphonic songs from Himara and Dovriani.
http://www.northepirus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=163
Thats ugly and is the proof of what the power of money can do.Do you really think that this is the first time i see those videos.These are post 90s songs,you pay them,they make songs for youm,thats all.

He spoke Greek because he was Greek,as the English traveller says:
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6859/1854375kz7.th.png (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1854375kz7.png)

So in Albania there are only Albanian Muslims,Greeks and Latins?Eh kostas things are more clear now,thanks for doing that for me.

The majority of their neighbors,not the Himariots themselves.

Is not what i understood,he is traveling through Albania btw.

[TirAlb]

ON ETHNIC LEGACY IN HIMARA
The situation we have today in Himara (and Dhermi) is the following: an almost completely bilingual community, Albanian and Greek. It is a community that has always thought of itself as something special, different, distinguished from the rest; a community that has been well aware of, and even fully accepted its isolation, by trying to turn it into a weapon for survival.
A political problem

Of the two languages and cultures, the Greek one seems to enjoy, currently, an indisputable prestige: these people live their "Albanian-ness" as a kind of regretful fatality, and their "Grecity" as an almost sacred project. If asked, they would admit they are Greek, because they feel Greek, and it is difficult to object to such an argument (for it hardly is an argument). And still, it is not possible to consider the matter as settled, and include Bregu in the area of the Greek minority in Albania, as most zealous Greek and Vorio-Epirote ideologues claim. The question is not as innocent as it might seem at a first glance; there are people, in Albania, who have to find, everyday, an answer to the following "trivial" questions: should the Albanian state give the Bregu inhabitants an official status of minority? Authorize Greek foundations to open and finance elementary and/or Greek high schools in Himara? Permit that liturgical services be routinely celebrated in Greek, as it seems to be the case? Help children be taught Greek in the churches, as Alibali remarks?

My point

The hellenisation of Himara doesn't have a clear beginning in time. Of course, to speak of hellenisation means to imply that the area was, at least in some remote past, not Greek but Albanian, and this is precisely what the supporters of Himara's Grecity would immediately deny. My point is, however, that much of the Greek culture, language, and identity that is found today in the area has been recently imported from Greece, by people trying to acquire a sharp, distinctive identity of their own. Their efforts to maintain this alleged Grecity even under the most severe cultural and linguistic oppression exerted by the communist regime cannot pass, however, as a proof of what their Greek-supporter ideologues claim.

What linguistics has to say

The Albanian dialect of Bregu, spoken in Himara as well, presents some quite archaic properties, which let one think that it has been there at least since the 3rd - 5th centuries A.D. (before the first contacts between Albanians and Slavs). On the other hand, it unsurprisingly is part of the dialectal continuum of "laberishte", i.e., is linguistically related to what was (and is) spoken in the immediate hinterland, which suggests an uninterrupted flow of Albanian-speaking elements from hinterland to Himara (and vice versa). Those centers that, mainly because of their different geography, do not present the same bilinguism and ethnic alienation (Vuno and Qeparo first of all, but also Pilur and Kudhes, to a certain degree), speak the very same sub-dialect of Laberishte. Of course, this might serve as an argument for those who claim that the Albanian in Himara is due to immigration from the Albanian-speaking hinterland, though it is difficult to maintain such a speculative position.

The folkloric evidence

Besides dialectology, the folkloric evidence as well speaks for quite definite ethnic-Albanian roots in the area: folk songs, and sung rituals (associated to weddings, death and burial ceremonies etc.) are clearly and typically Albanian: besides the text, their musical characteristics leave no room to doubt: theatrical polyphony (with different roles for different singers within the group), lack of musical or percussion instruments, pentatonic scales employed, etc. Musically, Himara goes with the rest of Laberia, and it is very hard to believe that Greek "autochtones" came to forget their own songs and traditions, abandon their musical instruments, and adopt a culture they have always looked upon as inferior. As a further argument for this might serve the simple fact that there are in Albania examples of Greek influence on folk culture, p.e. in the area of Permeti and, to a certain extent, in Myzeqe (tonalities, rhythms, and especially instruments employed).

If there is a language without a related folklore, one might be inclined to think of a sheer cultural assimilation having taken place, due to superiority and prestige, and also because of a need for acquiring a differential identity. As a matter of fact, Greek and Albanian in Himara seem to be two uncommunicating citadels, rather than two coexisting systems of communication. It is true that I have not heard of any serious, systemic research on the Greek dialect spoken in the area, but reliable experts have told me that it is very similar to the Greek dialect of Corfu, and this seems to be a quite reasonable observation, given the uninterrupted contacts and inter-relations between the two coasts. On the other hand, there is no evident proof for the Greek influencing, phonetically or grammatically, the Albanian sub-dialect of the area. Of course, there are a lot of Greek lexical loans, but this is understandable, and can be easily explained by centuries of contact, and commercial relations.

A history between empires

What does history have to say about this question? As an inhabited center, Himara is certainly very old, and, because of its geographical position, there is no doubt that Greek settlers have lived there since the early antiquity -- as they have in other shores throughout the Mediterranean. This cannot be used, however, as an argument for asserting Himara's modern Grecity, for we know the nature of these Greek settlements, the very essence of which lay in a symbiotic balance between sea-people (Greek) and land-people (non-Greek).

Then, in the early Middle Ages, the ethnic tableau in the Balkans grew somehow confused, and the Greek presence, though preserving its relevant connotations of authority, power, and prestige, got diluted in the multi-ethnic mass, tending to become symbolic. Between the 14th and 16th centuries, however, Himara appears as an Albanian, not Greek outpost. When Scanderbeg fights against the Turks, the Himariotes are by his side, to support him and his family; they even send armies to help. After Scanderbeg's death, they get involved in armed resurrections against the Ottoman rule, invoking the name, the memory, and the glory of the hero of Kruja. There is reason, and perhaps evidence, to believe that some of the Himariotes, to escape from the Ottoman plague, fled to southern Italy (Molise). Their alleged descendants, today, speak a form of Albanian, not Greek. On the other hand, some authors do not exclude a wave of refugees, from North Albania, to Himara, after the fall of Kruja. The hypothesis seems to be somehow confirmed by patronymic legends circulating in the area: according to these legends, the Bregu dwellers originate from Kruja, or Mirdita. Whether such an intra-Albanian immigration has really taken place in the past is highly questionable, in so far as linguistics and history have not been able to come forward with tangible proofs. It is true, on the other hand, that only few studies have been dedicated to the problem. Nevertheless, in spite of what might have happened with this hypothetical wave of Northerners, Himara has maintained its uninterrupted historical continuity.

It is well known that the Turk administration conceded them some kind of fiscal autonomy, as well as other extraordinary rights. In any case, Himara made a name in the Europe of the 16th-18th centuries, and certainly not as a simple Greek offshoot. It gave excellent soldiers to the so-called "Real-Macedonian" regiment serving the Kings of Naples. I personally have seen the files of these soldiers retrieved from archives in Naples; it is hard to tell if these men were Orthodox Greek or Orthodox Albanian (how would you classify, e.g., Spiro Milo?). Curiously enough, there are some Catholic Albanians among them too (with names like Zef, Pal, Pjeter, Gjoke, Gjin, etc.), though it is unclear whether these soldiers of fortune came directly from the Gheg territories, or rather from an (improbable) Catholic enclave in the Bregu area.

Painful definitions

So let us get back again to our initial question: to whom does Himara belong? Is it Albanian or Greek? There is no simple answer to this, apparently simple question. The idea of the State-Nation is an offspring of the Western European romanticism, who later spread into the East. Dozens of bloody wars have been fought so that some countries could claim that Sate and Nation, within their territories, perfectly coincided. Obviously, the notion of ethnic minority is a by-product of this political idea and/or doctrine of the State-Nation, which is in no way perfect, nor perfectly reasonable, but at least reflects, currently, a political reality.

From this standpoint, Himara represents a curious anachronism, as a present memory from epochs when the Balkan peninsula was part of multi-ethnic empires, and nationalities were more choices and necessities, and had to harshly compete with religion(s) as well. The Greek State, who was the first to challenge the Ottoman imperial rule with the romantic, nationalistic ideal of the nation, inherited from this imperial rule a very confuse notion about the relationship between nationality and religion. The old, medieval Ottoman distinction between "Turks" (Muslims) and "Infidels" (Christians), survived under the new shape of "Greek" (Orthodox) versus "Infidels (Muslims, quite often, Albanian Muslims).

On the other hand, the principle of contiguous territoriality cannot be applied to the Greek reality, especially as the past is concerned. The Greek civilization obviously expanded through the sea, and many a Greek scholar might be tempted to look for contiguity on the sea, and not on the land.

Centers and peripheries

There have been cities, in the Balkans, which are difficult to define from an ethnic standpoint: Ioannina, Sarajevo, Manastir, Voskopoja, Istanbul etc. Whom did they belong to? Of course, to no one in particular; like monads, these cities reflected the ethnic chaos in the Balkans, and every other definition risks to promote one's rights, by offending the other parts. Their modern assignment to this or that State is to be thought of as rather arbitrary, because these cities, who flourished under the Turk empire, were an essential part of the Balkans center, thus being multi-national by definition.

Himara is hardly a member of this group. Unlike them, Himara belong to the periphery of the peninsula, as a relic of an epoch that is even older than the Ottoman empire: Byzance, in spite of its Greek core, didn't assign any particular citizenship to those who lived under its rule. It was something more than a simple multi-national empire: it was a trans-national empire, which found its reasons for existing in the glorious (partly mythic) past. The Greek language and culture, used within the empire, were no signs of its national identity; they represented a necessary unifying myth. Therefore, the cultural structure of Himara still resembles a Byzantine model. People feel Greek, because there is no Byzance any more, not because they are Greek.

An explanation

Isolated, economically and culturally, from the rest of Albania, and too small to pretend creating a separate identity of their own, the Himara community found in Greece a kind of virtual ethnic authority. This authority sooner or later would turn into a source of reassuring identity. In a certain way, adopting Greek as a means of communication, and inventing the myth of their being Greek since the very origins, the Himariotes were looking forward to a social promotion. A community of gifted and energetic people, with few natural resources, but plenty of human ones, opened to the world because of the sea, but closed to it because of the mountains behind (and the mountains of Tirana's indifference), Himara was somehow doomed to perennially being on the edge between two cultural dimensions: the Greek sea and the Albanian land. By perceiving itself as an island, Himara could thus easily claim to be admitted into that infinite archipelago of the Greek world, in which getting together often means having to cover a certain distance by boat, and the only consolation for the melancholy of being an island, is the certainty of being touched by a friendly sea. This cultural module, adopted out of necessity, alienated Himara from the Albanian land long before its inhabitants became aware of their alleged "Grecity". People full of pride and dignity, conscious of a glorious past, and strong of a cultural identity, they would never resign to the fate to which Himara was abandoned, both by Zogu, and Enver Hoxha.

Responsibilities

Himara's deliberate choice to be part of a minority isn't due at all to religious motives, for the Albanian Orthodox church in the south is in good health, and, however, under no Muslim pressure or persecution. It is a choice dictated by great distress, and it should sound as an alarm bell to authorities in Tirana. If the Himariotes want to be Greek, no democratic state should virtually deny them the right to feel so, and deprive them of what they think they need in order to cultivate their cultural identity. If this recognition of their rights won't, and can't happen today, the reason for it is the Hellenic dream of hegemony in southern Albania, a region that some segments of Greek nationalism still consider as a dismembered part of their "glorious" nation. The Greek policy with their minorities, which has hardly been democratic and fair, is the real obstacle in the way of reaching a political understanding of the Himara issue. The truth is that all Albanian governments, in spite of their commitment to good will and respect for human rights, will be tempted to reciprocate, especially with this kind of minorities.

With this, I do not want to say that Himara's wish for Grecity is an immediate result of the well-known Hellenic cultural imperialism and wish for expansion. Having had a chance to know these people, and live among them for some time, I would say that their idea of ethnic identity is genuine, though the Greek myth staying behind this idea is totally false and misguiding.

The author is Ardian Vebiu,a historian often quoted in this forum,and he is not exactly a nationalist Albanian.

[kostas68]

Thats ugly and is the proof of what the power of money can do.Do you really think that this is the first time i see those videos.These are post 90s songs,you pay them,they make songs for youm,thats all.
The only thing that is proved is the power of your stubborness and it's not a surprise for me since i know very well that your people is famous for this.But i am also very stubborn,you see it's not only your people's privilege and i'll find soon an evidence that these are traditional Himariot songs.I remember that i've heard 25 years ago for first time Epirotan polyphonic songs from Greek TV.
So in Albania there are only Albanian Muslims,Greeks and Latins?Eh kostas things are more clear now,thanks for doing that for me.
Although i must admit that i begin to admire your ability to falsificate every irrefutable evidence(i think that even Scopians like Piperkata couldn't be compared with you) he makes a clear distinction between Greek christians and Albanian christians of the Greek church in the above paragraph.
Is not what i understood,he is traveling through Albania btw.
You understand whatever you want understand.

[TirAlb]

Italian villages founded by himariots: around 1700

http://www.provincia.pescara.it/index.php?page=turismo&level=2&tipo=comune&id=35
[QUOTE]
a quote from the article
La comunità è composta dai discendenti degli albanesi che, partiti dai loro villaggi di Piqeràs, Lukòva, Shen Vasìli, Klikùrsi, Nivizza e Corfù della regione di Himara,QUOTE]

The comunity is made of Albanian discendents,that came from their villages of Piqeras,Lukova,Shen vasili,Klikursi,Nivizza and Corfu,in the region of Himara...

http://www.villabadessa.org/


they speak a form of Albanian even today.

[kostas68]

Italian villages founded by himariots: around 1700

http://www.provincia.pescara.it/index.php?page=turismo&level=2&tipo=comune&id=35

a quote from the article
La comunità è composta dai discendenti degli albanesi che, partiti dai loro villaggi di Piqeràs, Lukòva, Shen Vasìli, Klikùrsi, Nivizza e Corfù della regione di Himara

The comunity is made of Albanian discendents,that came from their villages of Piqeras,Lukova,Shen vasili,Klikursi,Nivizza and Corfu,in the region of Himara...

http://www.villabadessa.org/


they speak a form of Albanian even today.
Off course there are in Himara these Albanian villages,but there are also the Greek villages Dradjates,Dukades,Drymades,Vouno,Palasa,Pilieri,Ph iniki e.t.c.

[Draco]

The comunity is made of Albanian discendents,that came from their villages of [...] Corfu
So Corfu is Albanian now as well? :dry:

[TirAlb]

So Corfu is Albanian now as well? :dry:

For sure there was an Himariot,community in Korfu.After every Turkish military campaign in the region Korfu or Italy were places were they usually took refuge.

[gmellos]

So Corfu is Albanian now as well? :dry:

come on man you should know by now the Albanians claim everything in Greece is their's originally and will be again!

[kostas68]

Look at this,TirAlb,what it writes about the polyphonic songs:
http://books.google.gr/books?id=d0vZkH0m-bMC&pg=PA356&dq=%3Cpolyphonic%2Bsongs%2BEpirus%3E&lr=&sig=4lFgObg7b1v-eKkFxamd6qDM1U8#PPA356,M1
<Neither of the polyphonic textures characteristic of south Albanian singing is unique to Albanians.The Lab style is shared with Greeks in the northwestern district of Epirus...>
Off course it mentions the Greek south Epirus but i will find soon something about Himara.

[kostas68]

Some more quotes about polyphonic songs.
<The folk mucic of Epirus(Ipiros) exhibits strong connections with that of Northern Epirus (Now Albania) and the former Yougoslav Republic of Macedonia,particularly in the polyphonic pieces sung by both men and women>,from <World music:the rough guide> by Simon Broughton,Mark Ellingham,Richard Trillo,published in 1999
http://books.google.gr/books?id=gyiTOcnb2yYC&pg=PA127&dq=%3Cpolyphonic%2Bsongs%2BEpirus%3E&lr=&sig=aXCTRGFhhse9ixj3jA9_8nxu4t0#PPA127,M1
From <Volksmusik Südosteuropas:Beiträge zur Volkskunde> by Walther Wunsch,published in 1964:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5619/polyph1rc3.th.png (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polyph1rc3.png)
It's in this link:
http://books.google.gr/books?lr=&id=oD4hAAAAMAAJ&dq=%3Cpolyphonic%2Bsongs%2BEpirus%3E&q=polyphonic&pgis=1
From <The New Oxford Companion to Music: Volume 1: A-J> by Denis Arnold,published in 1983:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4986/polyphonic2li8.th.png (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polyphonic2li8.png)
And the link:
http://books.google.gr/books?lr=&id=A4EYAAAAIAAJ&dq=%3Cpolyphonic%2Bsongs%2BEpirus%3E&q=Epirus&pgis=1

[TirAlb]

http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?lg=EN&topic=mp&cp=AL

Kostas that's what UNESCO and the whole word thinks about this kind of polyphony called: Albanian Folk Iso-polyphony.
If some neighboring Greek or Fyromian villages sing in the same way,the whole south Albania does,good for them,it means that they are doing good Albanian music.

If you want to know more about it,just make a quick search on google or you tube,i bet the only non Albanian results you will find are the above Wanabe Greek Himariots,or some equivocal quotes saying like always that Albanian polyphony like everything else in the Balkans is just regional and not national,without citing any fact to back their statement.And even it is regional it means that it is an Albanian regional phenomenon.

[Draco]

There are some sound files here (http://www.remen.gr/remen/ixitika.html) of singing like that from Greece in Vlach, Greek and Arvanitika.

[Morphesau]

Wanabe Greek Himariots ?

Please explain what you mean by wanabe Greek Himariots....

[TirAlb]

Wanabe Greek Himariots ?

Please explain what you mean by wanabe Greek Himariots....

Just read my posts in this thread,and on all other threads related to Himara and you will understand.

[Morphesau]

Just read my posts in this thread,and on all other threads related to Himara and you will understand.

I have read your posts, but what I am disturbed about here is that it's the Albanians that are the wanna be Greek.... here. Shouldn't that area be called Southern Albania ? Can you people be original for once and stop acting like the Skopjians.

[TirAlb]

I have read your posts, but what I am disturbed about here is that it's the Albanians that are the wanna be Greek.... here. Shouldn't that area be called Southern Albania ? Can you people be original for once and stop acting like the Skopjians.

No because we are speaking only about a couple of villages in the south Albanian coast,and i don't think im the Fyromian in this topic.

[Morphesau]

If you want to know more about it,just make a quick search on google or you tube,i bet the only non Albanian results you will find are the above Wanabe Greek Himariots,or some equivocal quotes saying like always that Albanian polyphony like everything else in the Balkans is just regional and not national,without citing any fact to back their statement.And even it is regional it means that it is an Albanian regional phenomenon.

No because we are speaking only about a couple of villages in the south Albanian coast,and i don't think im the Fyromian in this topic.


:rolleyes: It's really Albanians who are the wanna be Greeks here on anceint Greek soil.

[Morphesau]

kostas were exactly that article says that Himariots are Greeks?
Some of my points are even streesed there,like the inaccessibility of the region and the easyness of reaching Korfu with a boat.


Online Encyclopedia for five year olds. Seems Kostas's topic was too much for you.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Himar%C3%AB

There are two theories concerning the origins of the name Himara . The first one is geographic as well as folkloric; the ancient (and Byzantine) city was situated on a hilltop surrounded by a torrent [χείμαρρος (himaros) in Greek] and was thus named Himara (Χειμάρρα). The second theory proposes that the Greek city took its name from Χιμάρα, a corruption of the name Χίμαιρα (Chimera). This version is archaeologically attested as, at the ancient Greek acropolis of the city, an ancient epigraph reading in Doric Greek: "Phoebus Apollo founded the city of Chímaira" (ΦΟΙΒΟΣ ΑΠΟΛΛΩΝ ΧΙΜΑΙΡΑΝ ΕΠΟΛΙΣΕΝ) was unearthed. However, most Greek inhabitants of Himara use both versions of the name for the city and this practice seems to go back to Byzantine times when official documents referred to Himara both as "Χειμάρρα" or "Χιμάρα" .


In 1799, Himarë came under the rule of Ali Pasha Tepelenë, a Muslim enemy of the Himariotes who had risen from being an Albanian leader to the position of ruler of all of Epirus.


These tablets were inscribed in Turkish and are still preserved to this day in the Topkapi palace museum in Constantinople (modern Istanbul,Turkey). Himarë was occupied by Italy during the First World War, when the Italians used Austro-Hungarian war prisoners to build a road running through Himara, which greatly reduced the region's isolation. Following WWI, the "Protocol of Corfu" was signed and recognised the Greek character of Himara even though it did not entail the long standing dream of the Himariotes to unite with mother-Greece. Later, Himara was again occupied by the Italians as the rest of the Italian Invasion in Albania. The Italian Fascist Army was evicted by the Greek Army during the Greek-Italian war of 1940-41 and Himara was briefly annexed to Greece until the German invasion, April 6, 1941.[6]

[TirAlb]

:rolleyes: It's really Albanians who are the wanna be Greeks here on anceint Greek soil.

Its an Albanian soil.I don't care about the ancient holder,because as i said im not the Fyromian in this thread,but neither the Greek,so i glady leave to you both roles.;)

[Morphesau]

Its an Albanian soil.

With Hellenic culture to go with it :) Only the Hellenes bautify things.

I don't care about the ancient holder,because as i said im not the Fyromian in this thread,but neither the Greek,so i glady leave to you both roles.;)

Yes you do, Zeus is Albanian according to Albanians, so is Epiros according to Albanians and that the Greek Parthenon in Athens was built by an ancient Albanian tribe of Parthini and that Adam and Eve were Albanians LOLOLOL

You people make me laugh so hard :clap2:

[TirAlb]

With Hellenic culture to go with it :) Only the Hellenes bautify things.

What exactly?Please show me all this beautiful hellenic heritage of himara.I would love to visit it,because as far as im concerned except for some byzantine monuments builded by the locals,the only thing worth to see there is the sea,or it is Hellenic too?


[QUOTE]Yes you do, Zeus is Albanian according to Albanians, so is Epiros according to Albanians and that the Greek Parthenon in Athens was built by an ancient Albanian tribe of Parthini and that Adam and Eve were Albanians LOLOLOL

You people make me laugh so hard :clap2:
No i don't,because im not enough informed about,but i believe that personages like Zeus,Adam,Eve or Santa Clauss are fictional,so they can't have an ethnicity,and sorry if i ruined any of your childhood believes,especially about the last guy.

[kostas68]

TirAlb,why are you trying so insistently to prove that Himariots are Hellenized Albanians?Hmmm,i begin to suspect something...

[TirAlb]

TirAlb,why are you trying so insistently to prove that Himariots are Hellenized Albanians?Hmmm,i begin to suspect something...

you are the one here trying to prove smth not me.
hmmmm so tell us about this conspirancy.

[kostas68]

you are the one here trying to prove smth not me.
hmmmm so tell us about this conspirancy.
No,nothing to do with conspiracy.I was talking about your origin.Perhaps someone of your ancestors was of Himariot origin.Of Greek-speaking Himariot i mean... Because you are bothering only with the Himariots and not with the other Greeks in Albania.

[TirAlb]

No,nothing to do with conspiracy.I was talking about your origin.Perhaps someone of your ancestors was of Himariot origin.Of Greek-speaking Himariot i mean... Because you are bothering only with the Himariots and not with the other Greeks in Albania.

Is you guys that never speak about the real Greeks of Albania,you allways focus only on Himariots.Im not related to them,but indeed i admire their history and that of other highland people in general,like suliotes or the N. albanian catholics that preserved their freedom despite the Turkish rule.

[gmellos]

well it appears that according to Hammond the ancient inhaditants of Himara where Hellenic!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himar%C3%AB#cite_note-Hammond-2

^ Hammond, NGL (1994). Philip of Macedon. London, UK: Duckworth. "Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)"

[Peace Lover]

and you know what the "Donski of the future" will use for evidence eee?
In that FORUM they also spoke about Himariots in Northern Epeirus ..now we all know that "aleksandar veliki"'s mother Olympiova was from Epeirus and so..
..the MotW guys were "Makedonski"s :p:p:p

Funny !

But :
Read it (http://www.online-literature.com/byron/childe-harolds-pilgrimage/2/) , maybe you gone change idea about the XIX. cent A.C. Albania !

[Grace]

Kostas,
if Arvanites in 30 years all the sudden feel Albanian and start speaking "Albanian" shall we take your land (i.e. xx% or so of Greece)? You have enough land, and have increased it quite a few times.

People on the border were bilingual, blended and so was Ali Pasha. Let's not cause problems ;)

[Andrew]

Kostas,
if Arvanites in 30 years all the sudden feel Albanian and start speaking "Albanian" shall we take your land (i.e. xx% or so of Greece)? You have enough land, and have increased it quite a few times.

People on the border were bilingual, blended and so was Ali Pasha. Let's not cause problems ;)

If the Arvanites start on feeling Albanians then you'll have "rights" on them ...
..until now I know that if you call an Arvanit Albanian ...you'll better start running :p:p:p:p They became so mad that chase you !!!

[Grace]

Oh I know that they hate it. And I know why. Oh well.